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I was wondering about what the Imperial public knows with regards to Chaos, and that of the Renegade Primarchs/Legions.

If, as in the First War for Armageddon, the populace of a planet that encounters chaotic forces are mind-wiped/killed/incarcerated to prevent the spread of the knowledge of Chaos, does that mean that as far as the average Imperial citizen is concerned, the Renegade Legions never existed (and therefore the Horus Heresy too, reducing the publicly known Legions to 9?), or just that the Chaotic element of the Horus Heresy was successfully covered up?

Another associated question is that if all the Primarchs had homeworlds, then surely for the missing Primarchs to have been erased from history their home planets must have been purged too - either through Exterminatus, or what happened to Armageddon's population. That would leave a theoretical possibility (lore-wise) of gaining clues based on the missing data of their origins.

I know story-wise nothing has been hinted in that regard, but I just mean for an "in-universe" investigator, this would be a possibility. Create a list of planets that have undergone Exterimatus, or were "resettled" around the time of the Great Crusade, and you potentially have a missing Primarch's homeworld in there.

1.) The public does not know about Chaos, and the amount that they know about the Traitor Legions varies. In Priests of Mars, a Rogue Trader says Horus's name as a curse, I think, and then a few of his crew basically say "don't say that! it's bad luck!", so I'd assume that knowledge of the Traitors would be akin to our knowledge of the Christian devil - minimal, but enough to scare the populous into staying in line.
2.) One of the missing Primarchs was killed by Horus when he was sent back in time by Chaos Undivided, he shattered the glass on the incubation capsule, which would have caused the infant inside to be exposed to pure Warp energy, which would cause death (unless he just mutated beyond recognition, or ended up a Daemon). Other than that, you idea for finding the missing Primarchs' homeworlds makes sense.

I would like to add that any knowledge is more than likely heavily distorted into myth and legend. Take the Space Wolf Omnibus, before Ragnar is even recruited by the Wolves, his people have a legend of the Dark Daemon/God Horus mating with a daemon, but its all nonsensical and such. Also, he speaks of infants being drowned at birth for showing the taint of Chaos, but its more of a superstition than anything. With that said, he also had no real idea who Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaneesh, and Nurgle were during his trials.

The events of the Great Crusade and the Heresy are mythical to the people of 40K, much like the events of, say, the Old Testament or Sumeria are to us in 2015.

That all makes sense. It only leads to the question then, that what do people think led to the current status of the Emperor?

As he's non-mythic, being as the Imperial religion teaches his continued existence, are people aware he was injured by a traitor, or is he seen as some Jesus like figure, and his being in the Golden Throne as some form of ascension? Is he seen as a martyr, a victim, or on the Throne by choice?

If people are aware Horus put him there (despite being unsure who or what Horus was), I guess he's just seen as an attempted usurper, rather than someone under demonic influence.

Many real-world religions teach the continued existence of various gods, too, but none can say that they've actually directly witnessed their various acts, beings, manifestations, etc.

As to the Emperor on the Throne? It's generally depicted as being a sort of "Jesus on the Cross" sort of deal. It is referred to as his "ascension". He martyred himself by choice for all of humanity, that sort of thing.

I think most people know about the heresy bit they don't mention that the chaos gods were pumping Horus full of crazy. If you know nothing about chaos you can historically portray the heresy as a conventional failed coup, which is probably how it is portrayed

It's not even that well-portrayed. For example, we can use historic writings to paint a pretty good picture of the assassination of Julius Caesar, even though we don't know all the details or what was specifically said, who stood where during the act and so on. Still, we can recreate the scene pretty decently.

The Heresy is more like the RL Fall of Lucifer. It's crouched in symbolism and metaphor, and no one can even agree on what the major players looked like at the time. Some people don't even believe that they existed at all, and that the whole event is a just a parable.

Or the Arthurian legends, the Betrayal of Arthur by Lancelot, for example, or the Green Knight tale. No one alive today was there, we have no verified records of the events, no solid proof that the figures depicted in the legends ever actually existed or, if they did, precisely when they existed. So they are depicted in anything from late-Roman to early-Medieval attire and circumstances, sometimes even being Celtic, rather than Anglo-Saxon.

 dusara217 wrote:
1.) The public does not know about Chaos, and the amount that they know about the Traitor Legions varies. In Priests of Mars, a Rogue Trader says Horus's name as a curse, I think, and then a few of his crew basically say "don't say that! it's bad luck!", so I'd assume that knowledge of the Traitors would be akin to our knowledge of the Christian devil - minimal, but enough to scare the populous into staying in line.
2.) One of the missing Primarchs was killed by Horus when he was sent back in time by Chaos Undivided, he shattered the glass on the incubation capsule, which would have caused the infant inside to be exposed to pure Warp energy, which would cause death (unless he just mutated beyond recognition, or ended up a Daemon). Other than that, you idea for finding the missing Primarchs' homeworlds makes sense.

There's no way he died, as they talk about the missing Primarchs (emphasis on plural) in both False Gods and First Heretic. He was probably corrupted by it, though.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not even that well-portrayed. For example, we can use historic writings to paint a pretty good picture of the assassination of Julius Caesar, even though we don't know all the details or what was specifically said, who stood where during the act and so on. Still, we can recreate the scene pretty decently.

The Heresy is more like the RL Fall of Lucifer. It's crouched in symbolism and metaphor, and no one can even agree on what the major players looked like at the time. Some people don't even believe that they existed at all, and that the whole event is a just a parable.

Or the Arthurian legends, the Betrayal of Arthur by Lancelot, for example, or the Green Knight tale. No one alive today was there, we have no verified records of the events, no solid proof that the figures depicted in the legends ever actually existed or, if they did, precisely when they existed. So they are depicted in anything from late-Roman to early-Medieval attire and circumstances, sometimes even being Celtic, rather than Anglo-Saxon.

I wouldn't say it's that bad, at least for authorized individuals that are allowed to know about various Imperial secrets in the first place.. The Forge World Horus Heresy books are done from an in-universe perspective of the 40th millennium. They actually still have photographs ("pictographs"), videos (in-tact "data crystals", which shows they have EXTREMELY long lives... possibly infinite lives as long as they aren't lost. Of course, over 10,000 years, some were lost, but there are still a few from that era that are still intact), remembrancer sketches (dunno on what, since I doubt paper would last 10,000 years, but whatever they're on, the Imperium still has some!), memoirs (from remembrancers, space marines, and even primarchs), and records (yes, records) from the Great Crusade era and beyond , albeit in rather fractured ways, like a giant puzzle with a billion missing pieces but some pieces still intact. The scholar that writes those books often times gives citations and mentions evidence backing up his descriptions of the battle (heck, they even have in-tact battle maps from that era, etc).

Imperium technology might be stagnant, but apparently even its data storage technology is still good enough to last 10,000 years in a lot of cases as long as an outside force doesn't steal or destroy them (as are its vehicles, apparently)

In addition, there ARE people still alive from then (unlike King Author) and are witnesses from that era, many of whom remember the heresy like it was yesterday to them, albeit 99.9% of them are turned to Chaos. Still, the ones that turned to Chaos can and sometimes are captured and interrogated (especially by Dark Angels and the Inquisition) and there's at least one loyalist from the era that's still active (Bjorn) even if he only tells stories of that era once every hundred years and just to the space wolves. They got enough information from interrogations that the scholar correctly (as revealed in the Black Library books) hypothesized that Logar sent specific word bearers to Calth specifically so they'd die because they were loose cannons or didn't fit in with Logar's vision

However, I don't think most of the in-universe items the scholar in the HH book has are available to the general public (obviously the stuff about Chaos isn't)

Remember, the Heresy is 10,000 years in the past of the current era of the setting, and has undergone not only the wide-spread devastation of that period, but also that of the Age of Apostasy and (to date) 13 Black Crusades, massive Waaagh!s and other events.

Any records that remain of the era of the Heresy are hearsay, things passed down by word-of-mouth, rumors, recovered fragments of potentially-falsified documents, not to mention the "official line" of the Ecclesiarchy. There are few, if any, alive in M41 who can speak of the Heresy as an active thing.

Even Bjorn did not see much action during that time (he was Russ' cup-bearer, so was basically a Scout, at best).

 Psienesis wrote:
Remember, the Heresy is 10,000 years in the past of the current era of the setting, and has undergone not only the wide-spread devastation of that period, but also that of the Age of Apostasy and (to date) 13 Black Crusades, massive Waaagh!s and other events.

Any records that remain of the era of the Heresy are hearsay, things passed down by word-of-mouth, rumors, recovered fragments of potentially-falsified documents, not to mention the "official line" of the Ecclesiarchy. There are few, if any, alive in M41 who can speak of the Heresy as an active thing.

Did the Horus Heresy Forge World books say that? Cause it sure isn't really presented that way in them as far as I can tell.

In the 2nd edition rulebook there is a table of each legion with their primarch and homeworld. As far as I remember, every traitor homeworld was labelled 'exterminatus' after its name.

That whole 'going back in time' thing didn't actually happen - it was just a corrupted Chaos 'vision' that helped lead Horus further astray.

Hierophant wrote:
That all makes sense. It only leads to the question then, that what do people think led to the current status of the Emperor?

As he's non-mythic, being as the Imperial religion teaches his continued existence, are people aware he was injured by a traitor, or is he seen as some Jesus like figure, and his being in the Golden Throne as some form of ascension? Is he seen as a martyr, a victim, or on the Throne by choice?

It depends largely upon which planet you're on. I can't remember where I read this, but the Imperial Cult's canon varies from world to world, like the Catholic Church's canon did from region to region during the Middle Ages (this was actually how Christmas got started, they adapted the pagan Winter Solstice to a celebration of Christ), similar to how the Seth could be used as synonymous for the Devil while Osiris could be used as synonymous with God (and Horus with Jesus) during the early years of the Catholic missionaries trying to convert followers of Egyptian Mythology.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Remember, the Heresy is 10,000 years in the past of the current era of the setting, and has undergone not only the wide-spread devastation of that period, but also that of the Age of Apostasy and (to date) 13 Black Crusades, massive Waaagh!s and other events.

Any records that remain of the era of the Heresy are hearsay, things passed down by word-of-mouth, rumors, recovered fragments of potentially-falsified documents, not to mention the "official line" of the Ecclesiarchy. There are few, if any, alive in M41 who can speak of the Heresy as an active thing.

Even Bjorn did not see much action during that time (he was Russ' cup-bearer, so was basically a Scout, at best).

You do realize that he was a member of Russ's Wolf Guard, which is the equivalent of a Space Wolves Veteran Marine, right? Him being a cup-bearer does not exclude him from the fact that the only thing that's changed about the Space Wolves in 10k years is power and leadership.


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Also, records contained on Terra and other secure areas (like extremely influential Forge Worlds or Baal) would have a much better chance of survival than those contained on, say, a world near Cadia.


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 Alpharius wrote:
That whole 'going back in time' thing didn't actually happen - it was just a corrupted Chaos 'vision' that helped lead Horus further astray.

In First Heretic two Word Bearers see Horus when they go back in time,

... and the loss of an entire Company. The loss of the Wolf of Fenris (and the pledging of its Marines to Huron Blackheart and, thus, Chaos). The loss of the purported cure for the Canis Helix problem. The loss of over half their fleet in their spat with the GK and the Inquisition... and, not to mention, losing something like 75% of their numbers between the end of the Heresy and the modern era.

Even for a small Legion, the Space Wolves are not an exceptionally large Chapter. Larger than the standard limit of 1000 Marines, but not by much. Certainly far less than the pre-retcon Black Templars.

 Psienesis wrote:
... and the loss of an entire Company. The loss of the Wolf of Fenris (and the pledging of its Marines to Huron Blackheart and, thus, Chaos). The loss of the purported cure for the Canis Helix problem. The loss of over half their fleet in their spat with the GK and the Inquisition... and, not to mention, losing something like 75% of their numbers between the end of the Heresy and the modern era.

Even for a small Legion, the Space Wolves are not an exceptionally large Chapter. Larger than the standard limit of 1000 Marines, but not by much. Certainly far less than the pre-retcon Black Templars.

Actually, the SW, like most of the Legions, had over 100k Marines. They retconned the older numbers. Also, like I said, power and leadership.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
... and the loss of an entire Company. The loss of the Wolf of Fenris (and the pledging of its Marines to Huron Blackheart and, thus, Chaos). The loss of the purported cure for the Canis Helix problem. The loss of over half their fleet in their spat with the GK and the Inquisition... and, not to mention, losing something like 75% of their numbers between the end of the Heresy and the modern era.

Even for a small Legion, the Space Wolves are not an exceptionally large Chapter. Larger than the standard limit of 1000 Marines, but not by much. Certainly far less than the pre-retcon Black Templars.

Actually, the SW, like most of the Legions, had over 100k Marines. They retconned the older numbers. Also, like I said, power and leadership.

So then where did those other 98.000+ Space Wolves go? The current Chapter is only so strong:

Logan Grimnar's GC (noted as the largest): 200 SW
Ragnar Blackmane's GC (noted as the 2nd largest): 187 SW
10 remaining GC (giving them the absolute most they can have): 186 SW

1860 SW (10 GCs) + 187 SW (Blackmane's GC) + 200 SW (Grimnar's GC) = 2,247 Space Wolves in the Chapter at the absolute most. It is much more likely, however, that the other GCs average 100 Marines a piece, which gives us 1387 Space Wolves.

... somewhere along the way, they lost 97,000+ bodies, assuming a Legion size of 100k.

 Psienesis wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
... and the loss of an entire Company. The loss of the Wolf of Fenris (and the pledging of its Marines to Huron Blackheart and, thus, Chaos). The loss of the purported cure for the Canis Helix problem. The loss of over half their fleet in their spat with the GK and the Inquisition... and, not to mention, losing something like 75% of their numbers between the end of the Heresy and the modern era.

Even for a small Legion, the Space Wolves are not an exceptionally large Chapter. Larger than the standard limit of 1000 Marines, but not by much. Certainly far less than the pre-retcon Black Templars.

Actually, the SW, like most of the Legions, had over 100k Marines. They retconned the older numbers. Also, like I said, power and leadership.

So then where did those other 98.000+ Space Wolves go? The current Chapter is only so strong:

Logan Grimnar's GC (noted as the largest): 200 SW
Ragnar Blackmane's GC (noted as the 2nd largest): 187 SW
10 remaining GC (giving them the absolute most they can have): 186 SW

1860 SW (10 GCs) + 187 SW (Blackmane's GC) + 200 SW (Grimnar's GC) = 2,247 Space Wolves in the Chapter at the absolute most. It is much more likely, however, that the other GCs average 100 Marines a piece, which gives us 1387 Space Wolves.

... somewhere along the way, they lost 97,000+ bodies, assuming a Legion size of 100k.

Pre-Heresy, they were drawing recruits from multiple planets, now they're just taking people from Fenris, which doesn't have sufficient population to sustain the population of 100k+ Marines. Which is why the amount of Space Wolves slowly dwindled until they reached a level that the population of Fenris could sustain.

They've never recruited from elsewhere than Fenris. The Canis Helix has always been an issue, unless there's been a ret-con to that I'm not aware of.

Hierophant wrote:
I was wondering about what the Imperial public knows with regards to Chaos, and that of the Renegade Primarchs/Legions.

Much of the imperial populace does not know anything about the primarchs, loyal or traitor. Most have only vague ideas of what a space marine even looks like.

Consider how much we know about Hector and Achillies. We are not even sure they existed, just that they were in a story that we know.
That was only 3,300 years ago. For the average bum in 40k, the HH was 10,000 years ago; three times longer ago.

 Psienesis wrote:
They've never recruited from elsewhere than Fenris. The Canis Helix has always been an issue, unless there's been a ret-con to that I'm not aware of.

They also took recruits from Terra and other planets in the Sol System, just like the rest of the Legions did. That's how the Legions were founded. Also, I'd imagine that with purer gene-seed comes a slightly lower amount of aspirants falling to the beast inside.

Right, which was the "first run" with the geneseed that the Emperor had laying around on Terra. Following that, though, they moved to the system that we all know and love today. At this point (somewhere along the line), the geneseed got Helixed.

Either that, or GW just did not think that whole thing through very well (which is actually the most-likely scenario).

Just listening to the Assassins audiobook, a Callidus is the main character, and she's "handled" by an "assassin" of the Vans Temple. It's the latter's job to win wars by screwing up the enemies data streams in whatever way possible, propaganda etc, though I digress.

In answer to your question what does Joe Public know about the traitor legions, this story says they know pretty much feth all. "All the records show the emperor only had 9 sons, everyone knows that" is an early quote from the Callidus, who - talking to the Vanos - is trying to refute the claims of a heretical Saint that's decrying the word of the imperial creed. "You have been lied to, I have lied to you. The corpse emperor had 18 sons" or something to that general effect.

That's the closest BL written material that I know of that directly outlines how the imperium handled knowledge of the origins of the traitor legions outside of the Legiones Astartes. Hope it's of interest.


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 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
They've never recruited from elsewhere than Fenris. The Canis Helix has always been an issue, unless there's been a ret-con to that I'm not aware of.

They also took recruits from Terra and other planets in the Sol System, just like the rest of the Legions did. That's how the Legions were founded. Also, I'd imagine that with purer gene-seed comes a slightly lower amount of aspirants falling to the beast inside.

It's mentioned in Scars too, not specifically for the Wolves, though a number of legions; White Scars & Luna Wolves off the top of my head. Whilst making assumptions isn't a popular thing to do or say on Dakka, I think it's entirely possible that this was the way for all legions during the Great Crusade; recruit from wherever possible, with the new recruits having been trained outside of the legion to a Base standard, for them to then adopt the characterises of their legion on joining, and beyond.

 Exergy wrote:

Hierophant wrote:
I was wondering about what the Imperial public knows with regards to Chaos, and that of the Renegade Primarchs/Legions.

Much of the imperial populace does not know anything about the primarchs, loyal or traitor. Most have only vague ideas of what a space marine even looks like.

Consider how much we know about Hector and Achillies. We are not even sure they existed, just that they were in a story that we know.
That was only 3,300 years ago. For the average bum in 40k, the HH was 10,000 years ago; three times longer ago.

Only those on Feral or pre-Industrial worlds. For the average civilized member of the Imperium, they sure do know about Primarchs.

Guilliman is in stasis in a public shrine, and millions come to pay pilgrimmage every year. Unlike Achilles, his inact body is freely there on display. Sanguinius is venerated as a saint, and even has his own feast day - the Sanguinala - which is celebrated by the Imperial Cult every year.

Stating the time difference isn't a good argument either. Achilles existed in an age before computers, photography, the printing press... In 30k years from now, people will have an infinitely better idea of the year 2015 than we do of 8000 BC, just due to all the recorded content we produce every second.

The Primarchs are, to extend the religion metaphor of the Ecclesiarchy, like the Arch-angels or the Apostles. Major figures in the story of the Emperor's Ascension, but not the stars of the show.

I'm just stating that, at least in the case of Guilliman, they certainly aren't seen as psudeo-historical or possible myths.

You can take a shuttle to Macragge and buy a ticket to see Guilliman's perfectly preserved body, and presumably buy an Ultramarines plush toy at the gift shop on the way out.

Obviously, the Imperium is a big place though. Large portions are likely ignorant of the Primarchs, others will see them as supernatural figures of veneration, and others (like the entire realm of Ultramar) will be perfectly aware of them as genuine historical figures, no doubt even with existing videos and photographs of them.

And you could view the Shroud of Turin in museums not terribly long ago.

Yeah, the people in the Imperium and the Ultramarines believe the near-headless guy on the throne on Macragge is Guilliman... but it's been ten thousand years. Who the feth can really say for sure?