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Hi All,

I'm just messing around writing a bunch of Eldar lists and, now that I've finished painting up my jetbikes, I want to have a crack at a Jetseer Council list. But what best goes with it?

I was currently thinking of an Aspect Host with the usual good stuff (Warp Spiders definite and then a combo of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons and Hawks) and a CAD with two units of 3 Scatbikes and an Autarch Skyrunner (uses up the remainder of my jetbike models) plus whatever else I need to fill up the points. I'd probably make either (or both) a 1500 or 1850 version.

I was planning on giving the Autarch Skyrunner a Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun and the Shard of Anaris and running him with the council. The fusion gun would, in addition to any singing spears, give me some decent anti-tank and the banshee mask and the Shard would make the unit much more effective in combat, with the added benefit of Fearless.

Is the Autarch Skyrunner a good idea? And is there anything else you'd recommend that works well with a Jetseer council? Most of my lists seem to just include the same sort of things copy and pasted, but with the inability to also field a Windrider Host (not enough bikes) I probably won't be making a list with the usual decurion style detachment (unless the other core formations are worth it....). I can also branch out into Dark Eldar and/or Harlequin allies.

Thanks for any help in advance!

Baharroth makes the council work. He also allows them to gate around without scatter, allowing more precise shrieks / storms / cleansing flames as needed.

If you want a council, I suggest running more farseers. 3 is good, 4 is better.

Dark Eldar, Harlequins, and Covens can give you beaucoup leadership negs to make you Shrieks and Runes of Battle powers vastly more destructive.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/645774.page

Ideal Jetseer: 1 Windrider Host Farseer, Baharroth, Eldrad, 2 Seer Council Farseers, min 7 Skyrunner Warlocks.

Doesn't leave much room for support, and it sounds like spamming scat bikes isn't an option for you. You could definitely fit an aspect host, but I'd say Swooping Hawks synergize better than Warp Spiders. They can take care of backfield campers while hopping off to safety; whereas, all the enemy firepower is going to concentrate on your non-deathstar units because unlike the council, they won't be invisible. So, maybe some Swooping Hawks and a Hemlock for AT and 2 more warp charge.

I'd not thought about Baharroth, and that's an interesting idea. Gate + Herald of Victory is useful, but I'm not so sure about about rolling on Santic. I only get max three rolls on Santic using the Warlocks correct? That's still a relatively slim chance of getting one power when I'd say only one other power is worth the extra risk of perils. Hit and Run could be a nice addition though.

@Jimsolo: I've got a couple of lists written up using your freakshow guide but I don't think this list is the place for another.

I'd also have to agree with the Hit & Run suggestion.

I would suggest something big and bad that would act as another heavy hitter AND a distraction.

While a Jetseer council is pretty hard to hit, assuming you get off the right spells you need, its going to have a huge sign over it that says "focus fire here".

Wraithguard/firedragons+serpent/wraithknight might be a strong enough distraction that would make your opponent split his focus.

I was thinking of allying in Dark Eldar, so I'd probably take a WWP Archon to go with my Fire Dragons. Would that qualify, do you think, Crusade? I've really been liking Fire Dragons in the games I've played recently. They turn up and delete something and i find my opponent has to remove them next turn or else they'll remove something else.

 The Shadow wrote:
I was thinking of allying in Dark Eldar, so I'd probably take a WWP Archon to go with my Fire Dragons. Would that qualify, do you think, Crusade? I've really been liking Fire Dragons in the games I've played recently. They turn up and delete something and i find my opponent has to remove them next turn or else they'll remove something else.

For sure! Precise Deepstriking is great. Not to mention they prevent you from being "that guy" who fields wraithguard with a portal. You could also try the armor of misery upgrade, because I'm sure you'll be running around with at least one psychic shriek in that council.

So I'd written up a quick list that features a small Allied DE Detachment with the aforementioned WWP Archon and some Khymerae. I like to include the latter in Eldar lists that have a lot of shooting for things that are far easier to kill in combat (such as Necrons) and as an extra, different threat. However, with the Autarch with Shard, I feel the council will be quite good in combat, and so I don't really need the Khymerae anymore. What do people reckon?

Also, on the flipside, I could keep the Khymerae and swap the Autarch for Baharroth, with the focus of keeping the council out of combat. However, considering that I probably won't be rolling for Gate (though I guess I could consider it), I feel Baharroth is a lot of points to pay for hit & run, fearless and a "meh" damage output.

Realspace Raiders detachment with 2x5 warriors and 2x Raiders to fill with fire dragons AND Wraithguard. Afterall, why discriminate? Take both.

Something like this:

CAD (908)

Eldrad
Baharroth

2x3 Scat Bikes
1x3 Bikes (just mobile obsec)

5x D-Scythe Guard
5x Fire Dragons: Exarch

Formation: Seer Council (640)

Skyrunner Farseer: Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Singing Spear
Skyrunner Farseer: Singing Spear
7x Skyrunner Warlocks: Singing Spears

Realspace Raiders Detachment (300)

Archon: Webway Portal, Haywire Grenades

5x Warriors
5x Warriors

Raider: Dark Lance
Raider: Dark Lance

Total: 1848

You can do this with the Windrider Host as well and it'll get you a better council with another Farseer and you can still snag Eldrad and Baharroth via the hero/legend provisions. But that method has more tax units and, increasing the size of the deathstar, leaves you with virtually no room for support. Also, stop trying to keep the council out of combat, it's GREAT in combat! Hit&Run is just so you can re-charge, or take the movement phase to split off a character (not of the council formation of course). It's just for flexibility and anti-tarpit in the event you run into a Canoptek Harvest or something.

Anyway, this list has no AA and is a little, not a lot, but a little short on AT. BUT, you are a monster in combat and you have two units that absolutely terrify your opponent. The council dominates all four phases of the game like no other unit. And the D-scythes are coming in exactly where you want them with no-scatter DS + disembarkation.

Is it perfect? Would I like a Wraithknight? No and, of course. But it's pretty good.

Looks good, but I don't have the Jetbikes to field that kind of list.

And do you feel that Eldrad is necessary/good alongside a Seer Council?

Absolutely. I mean, you have to string him along and slingshot him into combat but he's one of, if not the, best psyker in the game. In addition, he has the best warlord trait. D3 unts gain infiltrate. So the council can take advantage, or you could re-write the list to include more units that could benefit.

The Scout moves are really nice, I have to say. They've come in very useful in every game I've used Eldrad. Still, I could potentially get that trait anyway, and I'm worried that Eldrad will be too overkill and also left somewhere where he's either too vulnerable or where he slows a unit down in this list.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd not thought about Baharroth, and that's an interesting idea. Gate + Herald of Victory is useful, but I'm not so sure about about rolling on Santic. I only get max three rolls on Santic using the Warlocks correct? That's still a relatively slim chance of getting one power when I'd say only one other power is worth the extra risk of perils. Hit and Run could be a nice addition though.

@Jimsolo: I've got a couple of lists written up using your freakshow guide but I don't think this list is the place for another.

Perils is not as great a concern for Eldar Farseers, your ghosthelm negates wounds from perils and you have ld 10. Its something to consider

ninety0ne wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd not thought about Baharroth, and that's an interesting idea. Gate + Herald of Victory is useful, but I'm not so sure about about rolling on Santic. I only get max three rolls on Santic using the Warlocks correct? That's still a relatively slim chance of getting one power when I'd say only one other power is worth the extra risk of perils. Hit and Run could be a nice addition though.

@Jimsolo: I've got a couple of lists written up using your freakshow guide but I don't think this list is the place for another.

Perils is not as great a concern for Eldar Farseers, your ghosthelm negates wounds from perils and you have ld 10. Its something to consider

But I'd be rolling on Santic with my Warlocks, who have neither...

Honestly, powers are very matchup dependent. You only have a total of 3 seers, so it's a little low in terms of available powers. If gate is a necessity for board control, start fishing with the council, then go onto a farseer or eldrad. Eldrad honestly has the best chance of getting a power you need. In some cases, it's gate; other times, it's invisibility or fortune.

Don't forget that that seers have access to sanctic as well. I've seen a lot of tactics on here stating "farseer 1 going on telepathy for invisibility, farseer 2 going on eldar for fortune." What happens when neither farseer gets the rolls you want on their respective table? Prioritize the powers you need and roll for them as such, throwing extra rolls or farseers on the same table if need be.

 The Shadow wrote:

ninety0ne wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd not thought about Baharroth, and that's an interesting idea. Gate + Herald of Victory is useful, but I'm not so sure about about rolling on Santic. I only get max three rolls on Santic using the Warlocks correct? That's still a relatively slim chance of getting one power when I'd say only one other power is worth the extra risk of perils. Hit and Run could be a nice addition though.

@Jimsolo: I've got a couple of lists written up using your freakshow guide but I don't think this list is the place for another.

Perils is not as great a concern for Eldar Farseers, your ghosthelm negates wounds from perils and you have ld 10. Its something to consider

But I'd be rolling on Santic with my Warlocks, who have neither...

I have never had good luck with using warlocks for sanctic. I do a three farseer council and really only grab sanctic IFF I get fortune and invis on F1 and F2. I think there's just too much useful stuff on runes of battle to pass it up with the warlocks

Yeah, Runes of Battle is very useful as well. And yeah, I do try to aim for certain powers - usually Fortune - and will double up on disciplines if the first Farseer I roll for doesn't get the required power.

 The Shadow wrote:

ninety0ne wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd not thought about Baharroth, and that's an interesting idea. Gate + Herald of Victory is useful, but I'm not so sure about about rolling on Santic. I only get max three rolls on Santic using the Warlocks correct? That's still a relatively slim chance of getting one power when I'd say only one other power is worth the extra risk of perils. Hit and Run could be a nice addition though.

@Jimsolo: I've got a couple of lists written up using your freakshow guide but I don't think this list is the place for another.

Perils is not as great a concern for Eldar Farseers, your ghosthelm negates wounds from perils and you have ld 10. Its something to consider

But I'd be rolling on Santic with my Warlocks, who have neither...

I'd agree that Sanctic on Warlocks is quite risky. Besides, Runes of Battle has Protect, which is fantastic, and Horrify, which is very useful for all the Psychic Shriek targets. If you want Sanctic, go with a Farseer - I think it's worthwhile to go Sanctic if you have Fortune and Invisibility already rolled up.

Sounds fair enough.

How do people value the council's ability in combat? Can they hold their own against most other units (the uber-killy combat deathstars aside, obviously)? My Jetseer council would probably have an Autarch with the Shard of Anaris in tow as well...

 The Shadow wrote:
Sounds fair enough.

How do people value the council's ability in combat? Can they hold their own against most other units (the uber-killy combat deathstars aside, obviously)? My Jetseer council would probably have an Autarch with the Shard of Anaris in tow as well...

Their damage output in combat is not great against other CC deathstars like Wolfstar, Lychstar etc. However, what really matters is who is still invisible after the psychic dice war of cast/deny happens, possibly multiple times. Baharroth is essential for H&R (and he gives you Fearless, so no need for the Shard).

The Council really excels at multi-assaulting MSU units and vehicles. Other CC stars are to be avoided.

 The Shrike wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Sounds fair enough.

How do people value the council's ability in combat? Can they hold their own against most other units (the uber-killy combat deathstars aside, obviously)? My Jetseer council would probably have an Autarch with the Shard of Anaris in tow as well...

Their damage output in combat is not great against other CC deathstars like Wolfstar, Lychstar etc. However, what really matters is who is still invisible after the psychic dice war of cast/deny happens, possibly multiple times. Baharroth is essential for H&R (and he gives you Fearless, so no need for the Shard).

The Council really excels at multi-assaulting MSU units and vehicles. Other CC stars are to be avoided.

Fair enough, that's to be expected I guess.

I had a test game today and the Autarch with the Shard was pretty lethal, munching his way through a few GK characters. I have to say, I do like that setup. I'm more bothered about the council's damage output versus Necrons and such, which I'm told you need combat to finish off. My original draft of this list had some allied DE with a beast pack for just that purpose, but I had to drop the allied detachment as I realised I'd gone over the allowance. I'm hoping that, with the Autarch in tow, the Jetseer council can fill in that role.

One thing to note is that Eldrad has a fleshbane Force weapon. That can come in really handy against multi-wound MC's. Also decent against Necrons, as you reduce their RP rolls by 1.

 The Shadow wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Sounds fair enough.

How do people value the council's ability in combat? Can they hold their own against most other units (the uber-killy combat deathstars aside, obviously)? My Jetseer council would probably have an Autarch with the Shard of Anaris in tow as well...

Their damage output in combat is not great against other CC deathstars like Wolfstar, Lychstar etc. However, what really matters is who is still invisible after the psychic dice war of cast/deny happens, possibly multiple times. Baharroth is essential for H&R (and he gives you Fearless, so no need for the Shard).

The Council really excels at multi-assaulting MSU units and vehicles. Other CC stars are to be avoided.

Fair enough, that's to be expected I guess.

I had a test game today and the Autarch with the Shard was pretty lethal, munching his way through a few GK characters. I have to say, I do like that setup. I'm more bothered about the council's damage output versus Necrons and such, which I'm told you need combat to finish off. My original draft of this list had some allied DE with a beast pack for just that purpose, but I had to drop the allied detachment as I realised I'd gone over the allowance. I'm hoping that, with the Autarch in tow, the Jetseer council can fill in that role.

I'd really advise Baharroth for Hit and Run over the Autarch. If you still want to take the Autarch, you can. Give him a Banshee Mask so you can't be overwatched and whatever CC toy you wish. Of course, you sacrifice a Farseer to do that. But Hit and Run is simply essential. You get in combat with a Wolfstar, BikeStar, Lychstar, Screamerstar, Dronestar, heck even Necron Wraiths....you will be outmatched. Granted, you should be able to get invis off. But you won't be doing any damage either and Some of those things, especially the Wraiths, will be cheaper than you.

 The Shrike wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Sounds fair enough.

How do people value the council's ability in combat? Can they hold their own against most other units (the uber-killy combat deathstars aside, obviously)? My Jetseer council would probably have an Autarch with the Shard of Anaris in tow as well...

Their damage output in combat is not great against other CC deathstars like Wolfstar, Lychstar etc. However, what really matters is who is still invisible after the psychic dice war of cast/deny happens, possibly multiple times. Baharroth is essential for H&R (and he gives you Fearless, so no need for the Shard).

The Council really excels at multi-assaulting MSU units and vehicles. Other CC stars are to be avoided.

Fair enough, that's to be expected I guess.

I had a test game today and the Autarch with the Shard was pretty lethal, munching his way through a few GK characters. I have to say, I do like that setup. I'm more bothered about the council's damage output versus Necrons and such, which I'm told you need combat to finish off. My original draft of this list had some allied DE with a beast pack for just that purpose, but I had to drop the allied detachment as I realised I'd gone over the allowance. I'm hoping that, with the Autarch in tow, the Jetseer council can fill in that role.

I'd really advise Baharroth for Hit and Run over the Autarch. If you still want to take the Autarch, you can. Give him a Banshee Mask so you can't be overwatched and whatever CC toy you wish. Of course, you sacrifice a Farseer to do that. But Hit and Run is simply essential. You get in combat with a Wolfstar, BikeStar, Lychstar, Screamerstar, Dronestar, heck even Necron Wraiths....you will be outmatched. Granted, you should be able to get invis off. But you won't be doing any damage either and Some of those things, especially the Wraiths, will be cheaper than you.

To give a fully complete answer, that may disagree a bit with The Shrike above, I think its less a matter of can you hang and kill with the other stars without hit and run, and more are you losing 1/12th of your total game killing power every turn your locked in combat. Witchblades will pile wounds on any other star and force a weight of dice effect on most while mulching demons into instability checks. But that requires you to lose your witchfires every turn you start the psychic phase in combat. Being able to horrify/shriek a unit every turn in addition to charging into CC is a significant advantage over possibly taking 2 rounds to kill a single squad.

I think your point is actually pretty much in line with mine.

Against a lot of these things, Reroll 2++ Screamers, Wraiths with RP, he needs hit and run because even if they're slap-fighting and neither one is hurting the other, a full Jetseer council is way more expensive than the opponent. It's vulnerable to being tarpitted, and not only by things with invul saves. Yeah, fleshbane is awesome and it will pile wounds on things, but invis, endurance, 2+'s are all out there in common Deathstars, often combined.

Bottom line, you need Baharroth, or you're playing with fire.

 The Shrike wrote:


Bottom line, you need Baharroth, or you're playing with fire.

^^


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ninety0ne wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:


Against a lot of these things, Reroll 2++ Screamers, Wraiths with RP, he needs hit and run because even if they're slap-fighting and neither one is hurting the other, a full Jetseer council is way more expensive than the opponent. It's vulnerable to being tarpitted, and not only by things with invul saves. Yeah, fleshbane is awesome and it will pile wounds on things, but invis, endurance, 2+'s are all out there in common Deathstars, often combined.

Bottom line, you need Baharroth, or you're playing with fire.

^^

should sticky this post as definitive on the council