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I've always been frustrated how an AP2 weapon shreds straight through terminator armour but AP3 might as well be AP6 against it so i was thinking of a way it could change to mean an AP3 weapon might have a higher chance of getting into terminator armour than a guardsman flashlight for example.

Here's what I came up with

AP1 reduces save by 4 (2+ reduced to 6+)
AP2 reduces save by 3 (2+ reduced to 5+)
AP3 reduces save by 2 (2+ reduced to 4+)
AP4 reduces save by 1 (2+ reduced to 3+)
AP5/6 does nothing

This means Terminators aren't as vulnerable to AP1 or 2 but are slightly more vulnerable to AP3 and 4.
It also means Power armour would still get a 6+ vs AP2 and a 5+ vs AP3.
Its simple but i'm unsure if it would effect the game in the right way.
What do you think?

Except that terminators have a 5++ so AP1 weapons wouldn't do anymore to them then AP2 weapons.

The main issue is that those high AP weapons are incredibly easy to acquire compared to back in the day. We just need the upgrades priced correctly.

Coming up with AP weapons is easy for every army. It's gotten too easy. Anyone can whip out AP3 MEQ killers let alone the abundance of AP2 and this tends to create plenty of complaints along the lines of entire units no longer being viable because of how easy they are to kill despite their high point cost. This would further exasperate the issue if higher RoF AP4 is also cleaning out MEQ units on a 3 turn tabling scale. We are already dangerously close or maybe even crossed the line where the player who's turn is first will end up winning.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Coming up with AP weapons is easy for every army. It's gotten too easy. Anyone can whip out AP3 MEQ killers let alone the abundance of AP2 and this tends to create plenty of complaints along the lines of entire units no longer being viable because of how easy they are to kill despite their high point cost. This would further exasperate the issue if higher RoF AP4 is also cleaning out MEQ units on a 3 turn tabling scale. We are already dangerously close or maybe even crossed the line where the player who's turn is first will end up winning.

Besides killakannon Orks don't have a lot of AP3 and as far as AP2 the only decent ranged weapon I can think of is Mek Gunz with KMKs. and those have a tendency to scatter and to get hot. So I agree with your premise but I would change it slightly so that its MOST armies and not ALL armies.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Coming up with AP weapons is easy for every army. It's gotten too easy. Anyone can whip out AP3 MEQ killers let alone the abundance of AP2 and this tends to create plenty of complaints along the lines of entire units no longer being viable because of how easy they are to kill despite their high point cost. This would further exasperate the issue if higher RoF AP4 is also cleaning out MEQ units on a 3 turn tabling scale. We are already dangerously close or maybe even crossed the line where the player who's turn is first will end up winning.

Besides killakannon Orks don't have a lot of AP3 and as far as AP2 the only decent ranged weapon I can think of is Mek Gunz with KMKs. and those have a tendency to scatter and to get hot. So I agree with your premise but I would change it slightly so that its MOST armies and not ALL armies.

You forgot the Shokk Attack Gun and before you say it sucks, with ammo runts and gitfinda it is one of the more accurate and mobile of our AP2 weapons since we can take it on a bike whose strength also averages out on S7 which makes it functionally a large blast plasma cannon. Best case scenario you end up with vortex (SD) and worst case you lose your Big Mek (a big buff compared to the previous SAG table which wiped out everyone from play within D6" of the Big Mek). You also forgot the Blitza Bomma's Big Bomm which scatters only D6" and is both large blast S7 AP2 and armourbane. At this point Lords of War are effectively part of the game so Stompas and Kill Burstas are also sources of big pie plates of AP1-2 doom (strength D in the Kill Burstas case).

For AP3 we got a butt ton of cheap ass rokkits and (traktor and otherwise) kannons, the supa kannon, supa skorcha.

Armour generally isn't that big of an issue for Orks anyhow, we opt for overwhelming them in tides of choppa (with pinches of PK) or dakka. Its only for special cases that we use the real speshul dakka to wipe out the real nasties (centurions, Wraithknights, Imperial Knights).

The bigger issue is having long ranged AP options, we got plenty of shorter range ones but those of 60+ range category are pretty limited.

All good points grim, but our AP 3 weapons are 24inches for rokketz and 36 for Kannons. Dont get me wrong I like kannons and rokkets but they aren't exactly ideal long range weapons. I don't include FW because I own a grand total of 0 forge world models to expensive. As far as blitza bomma, i did forget about that but at the same time would you really waste one of the bombs you can carry on a target that needs AP3 to kill? And furthermore bolters can shoot our poor airforce out of the sky.

As far as Shokk attack gun....thats a 100pt investment minimum and then you have a 1/12 chance of losing it randomly, again don't get me wrong i field him every game

 Ghazkuul wrote:
All good points grim, but our AP 3 weapons are 24inches for rokketz and 36 for Kannons. Dont get me wrong I like kannons and rokkets but they aren't exactly ideal long range weapons. I don't include FW because I own a grand total of 0 forge world models to expensive. As far as blitza bomma, i did forget about that but at the same time would you really waste one of the bombs you can carry on a target that needs AP3 to kill? And furthermore bolters can shoot our poor airforce out of the sky.

As far as Shokk attack gun....thats a 100pt investment minimum and then you have a 1/12 chance of losing it randomly, again don't get me wrong i field him every game

Very true regarding range. It's unfortunate, GW could have at least let us keep the old boomgun for a sawed off battle cannon but the new looted wagon ended up only keeping the killkannon upgrade.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
All good points grim, but our AP 3 weapons are 24inches for rokketz and 36 for Kannons. Dont get me wrong I like kannons and rokkets but they aren't exactly ideal long range weapons. I don't include FW because I own a grand total of 0 forge world models to expensive. As far as blitza bomma, i did forget about that but at the same time would you really waste one of the bombs you can carry on a target that needs AP3 to kill? And furthermore bolters can shoot our poor airforce out of the sky.

As far as Shokk attack gun....thats a 100pt investment minimum and then you have a 1/12 chance of losing it randomly, again don't get me wrong i field him every game

Very true regarding range. It's unfortunate, GW could have at least let us keep the old boomgun for a sawed off battle cannon but the new looted wagon ended up only keeping the killkannon upgrade.

Like I said, 7th edition has been a very bad edition for Orks. we lost so much and gained so little.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
All good points grim, but our AP 3 weapons are 24inches for rokketz and 36 for Kannons. Dont get me wrong I like kannons and rokkets but they aren't exactly ideal long range weapons. I don't include FW because I own a grand total of 0 forge world models to expensive. As far as blitza bomma, i did forget about that but at the same time would you really waste one of the bombs you can carry on a target that needs AP3 to kill? And furthermore bolters can shoot our poor airforce out of the sky.

As far as Shokk attack gun....thats a 100pt investment minimum and then you have a 1/12 chance of losing it randomly, again don't get me wrong i field him every game

Very true regarding range. It's unfortunate, GW could have at least let us keep the old boomgun for a sawed off battle cannon but the new looted wagon ended up only keeping the killkannon upgrade.

Like I said, 7th edition has been a very bad edition for Orks. we lost so much and gained so little.

I wouldn't say its been terrible, but it sure hasn't been as optimal as most of us would have liked.

I still haven't gotten over the grief from waiting for the new codex as long as we did to get...nauts I bought a naut and afterwards was immediately suffering from buyers remorse

@Taffy17.
Rather than have a separate table of modifiers to cross reference.

Why not simply let the AP value remove dice of that score from the save roll.

Eg AP 6 removes any save dice that roll 6.

So a Space Marine saves on 3,4,5 on a D6 vs AP 6 weapons.

If we use this system we can sat that INV saves ignore AP values equal or higher.

SO a Terminator hit by an AP 3 weapon only saves on a 2.(Rolls of 3,4,5,and 6 are discounted by the AP value.)
But as the terminator has Inv 5+they actually save on a 2,5 or 6 on a D6.

This method does not required the use of maths, and allows inv to be used all the time.

Just another option to consider.

I like the idea, but the game would need a complete overhaul of weapon stats, and points costs for both weapons and armor. Every ap4 effect would be massively better, like loota deffguns, power mauls, STOMPS, any heavy bolter or autocannon equivalent... Ap2 wouldn't even be necessary, since ap3, like say from necron destroyers, would work fairly reliably on even 2+ armor.

I would expect 2+ armor and 3+ armor to significantly drop in point value to respond to this system, or have some alternative coping measure.

@niz-mizzet.
Any change to the AP system, to make it more proportional would need values and points cost change.

So if we are going to change it , I would rather use a significant change that addressed the core problems and make it as straight forward as possible, from a game play P.O.V.

Under the proposed system the AP values map on to the old A.S.M.So we could use 2nd eds old values as a starting point perhaps?

I am aware the proposed new system needs lots of values re-evaluating.But I think the end result would be worth it.

How about we just either remove a lot of or ramp up the cost of most AP weapons. Not just AP1-3 because realistically that doesnt help armies with weak armor, Orks, Nids, IG and so on. the fact that every weapon right now is basically weighed against AP3 is garbage.