Independent Characters and Formations.

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**Ironwolf45**

Quick question for clarification. Friend of mine from my old store is building a Space Marine list for a fun tournament and he is bringing the Skyhammer Annihilation Force Formation. He was considering adding a Chapter Master to one of these Assault Squads in the formation but I told him he could not do that, however he claims that since there is no rule saying he can't he said he should be able to do that. Already tried explaining to him that independent characters cannot join a formation but I just wanted to clarify it with you guys if that is the case.

**Makumba**

they can join, but the drop pods are full and the jump troops won't be able to charge the turn they land, if the chapter master is in the unit. He would also have to take two troops to get the chapter master legaly.

**SharkoutofWata**

You're not exactly being clear on what the issue is. He can add a Chapter Master to the UNIT that is in the Formation no problem. The Chapter Master is then a part of the unit and subject to the rules that affect the unit. Because the 'arrives on Turn 1' rule doesn't say that all models in the unit must have the rule, the Chapter Master is free to piggyback his way in.

If he is taking just the Skyhammer as his army and wants to make his army 'Skyhammer + Chapter Master' that is also allowed but it would be Unbound. The Skyhammer is a Detachment, since Formations are allowed in Unbound, and then the 'Unbound Detachment' or however we would title it is just the extra model.

Why wouldn't an Independent Character be able to join a Formation though? All models interact with models from other Detachments using the Allies Matrix. If they're Battle Brothers, and two units of Space Marines are, then they can join each other freely (subject to Chapter Tactics rule but that's neither here nor there). What rule makes you think otherwise?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
they can join, but the drop pods are full and the jump troops won't be able to charge the turn they land, if the chapter master is in the unit. He would also have to take two troops to get the chapter master legaly.

Why can't the Assault Squad charge? The Chapter Master is now a part of the Assault Squad for rules purposes, and it's still the Assault Squad charging Turn 1.

**Makumba**

Because the rule doesn't spread to models joining the unit.

**SharkoutofWata**

And the Formation benefit qualifies as the special rule for the unit. That makes sense.

**Ironwolf45**

That's what I thought as well. An independent character can join the unit, however if he does so, he cannot benefit from the unit's special rules. That being said, in this case in wanting to join one of the assault squads, If the Chapter Master is attached to the does that mean that assault squad will not be able to charge then?

And let's say you're playing Blood Angels as your CAD, but you Ally in a Skyhammer Formation, which is a Space Marine codex formation only, would it then be illegal for an independent character from the Blood Angel codex to join the Skyhammer Formation?

**Makumba**

he can join the unit, and he can even deep strike with them, if he has the rule too, but the unit he is with will not be able to use any of it special rules the formation has.

**Kilkrazy**

This is a YMDC matter, I will move the thread to that forum.

**JinxDragon**

What Rule within this Formation revokes permission for an Independent Character to join a Battle-brother's Unit?

Unfortunately Game Workshop suffers from what I call the 'Vacuum effect,' as Rules only take into account the most simplest of elements needed to explain the situation. This means more complicated Rule interactions are never addressed, nor even hinted at being possible, and the Independent Character Special Rule creates some of the most complicated interactions out there. This has led to many debates on this topic, I recommend popping over to 'You Make Da Call' and reading some of the previous threads to get a better understanding of the problem. In short though, the issue all stems around one clause found within the Independent Character Special Rule, forcing all other Rules to treat the Independent Character as a member of the Joined Unit.

**Ghaz**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/652710.page

There's the 21 page thread we had on the Skyhammer when it first came out. It should amply cover both sides of the debate.

**Charistoph**

Ironwolf45 wrote:
And let's say you're playing Blood Angels as your CAD, but you Ally in a Skyhammer Formation, which is a Space Marine codex formation only, would it then be illegal for an independent character from the Blood Angel codex to join the Skyhammer Formation?

They are Battle Brothers. Read up on Allies to answer this question. It's pretty straight forward.

Ironwolf45 wrote:
That's what I thought as well. An independent character can join the unit, however if he does so, he cannot benefit from the unit's special rules. That being said, in this case in wanting to join one of the assault squads, If the Chapter Master is attached to the does that mean that assault squad will not be able to charge then?

There has been several large debates on this, and it largely devolves to this:
- Independent Characters do not receive the rules of the units they join: The Blood Angels Character joining a Skyhammer Assault Squad will never be in possession of Chapter Traits or any of the Skyhammer Formation rules.
- Models do not need to possess a rule to be affected by it or benefit from it: The BAngels Character joins a unit of Stubborn Dark Angels, and so is affected by Stubborn while never actually having it.

The question then becomes: "What qualifies a rule to affect an Independent Character while in a unit?"

Answer that question, and you answer whether or not the BAngels character can Charge with the Skyhammer Assault Squad.

For some, it is an arbitrary phrase that is the requirement, even though the rules never stated as such. For others, it is the target of the affect, if the rule specifically affects the unit, then it includes the Independent Character in its affect. For others, it depends on the power it provides the Independent Character (very HTWPI attitude here, and fine for House Rules, just don't tell me it's written that way).

**JinxDragon**

Thanks Ghaz,
I was looking for that very link and highly recommend it is read.

**Wallur**

JinxDragon wrote:
What Rule within this Formation revokes permission for an Independent Character to join a Battle-brother's Unit?

It's not that the formation revokes the permission to join, the discussion is that the unit won't be able to charge since the IC don't have the same rule to allow it. (Since it's a rule that the whole unit needs it to be in effect, not as for example Stealth or shroud that only 1 model having it grants it to the whole unit)

As I thought it the first time, this was discussed, the IC is not part of the troop unit when ""it recieves the benefits of the formation"". The Troop unit have that rules when you prepare the datasheet, a unit does not gain the bonuses of the Formation at a certain time during the game, it starts with it, so, when the IC joins the troop unit it doesn't gain the rule for chargin on turn 1. Since all the models originally from the unit have the rule, but the IC doesn't have the rule.

I know that when the IC joins a unit it is part of the unit for all purposes, it's the same as for ongoing effects, the IC won't be affected by negative effects that affected the unit BEFORE the IC joins it.

The thing with Objective Secure when an IC joins a troop, the objective is secure because THE UNIT not THE MODEL is controlling the objective, and since some models have the Obj Secure, THE UNIT has obj secure.

**Charistoph**

Wallur wrote:
JinxDragon wrote:
What Rule within this Formation revokes permission for an Independent Character to join a Battle-brother's Unit?

It's not that the formation revokes the permission to join, the discussion is that the unit won't be able to charge since the IC don't have the same rule to allow it. (Since it's a rule that the whole unit needs it to be in effect, not as for example Stealth or shroud that only 1 model having it grants it to the whole unit)

Yet, joining was part of the original question:

Ironwolf45 wrote:He was considering adding a Chapter Master to one of these Assault Squads in the formation but I told him he could not do that, however he claims that since there is no rule saying he can't he said he should be able to do that...

Wallur wrote:As I thought it the first time, this was discussed, the IC is not part of the troop unit when ""it recieves the benefits of the formation"". The Troop unit have that rules when you prepare the datasheet, a unit does not gain the bonuses of the Formation at a certain time during the game, it starts with it, so, when the IC joins the troop unit it doesn't gain the rule for chargin on turn 1. Since all the models originally from the unit have the rule, but the IC doesn't have the rule.

Then you need to reread the rules for the Skyhammer Formation. The conditions for the benefits in question are:
1) Declaring to come in from Reserves
2) After they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves
3) Devastator Squad targets a unit
4) Assault Squad Charges a unit Gone to Ground by 3.

An IC can be present in the unit at the occurance of every single one of those conditions. None apply a benefit at list creation. So, by your judgement above, the IC would be able to participate as a member of the unit in all 4 cases.

Remember, an IC does not have to have a rule to be affected by it.

**easysauce**

when you cast a phycih power on a unit,

that affects the unit (the unit includes atached IC's)

in the same vein, the assault squad units have a special rule,

and they are still assault squad units after an IC joins them, he is in fact, part of that unit for *ALL* purposes, be it benifiting from powers cast on the unit, or these formation specific rules allowing for DS turn one and charging.

**Wallur**

Charistoph wrote:
Remember, an IC does not have to have a rule to be affected by it.

That's not completely true, there are some rules that when 1 model has it the whole unit benefits from it, and some rules that states that all models in the unit need that rule for the unit to benefit from it.
(It would be good if someone can post the whole rule, since I haven't read it)

easysauce wrote:
when you cast a phycih power on a unit,

that affects the unit (the unit includes atached IC's)

in the same vein, the assault squad units have a special rule,

and they are still assault squad units after an IC joins them, he is in fact, part of that unit for *ALL* purposes, be it benifiting from powers cast on the unit, or these formation specific rules allowing for DS turn one and charging.

If a IC joins a unit during the movement phase, and that unit was affected by a malediction from the enemy turn before, the original models are afected, but not the IC, even though they are all part of the same unit NOW. If a unit is affected by a malediction when the IC was part of it, the IC still have the harmfull effect even if it leaves the unit in the next movement phase.

IC doesn't gain rules from the other models, THE UNIT may benefit from it because it doesn't require the whole unit to have it.
Stealth, Shroud, Fearless, for example doesnt require the hole unit to have it. Move Through Cover, Fleet, require the hole unit to have it to gain the benefit.

So, I don't know the wording of Skyhammer rule, I don't know if what allows the unit to charge the turn they arrive via DS/dissembark. i don't know if it is a rule "all models must have" or a "if a model have"

**Charistoph**

Wallur wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
Remember, an IC does not have to have a rule to be affected by it.

That's not completely true, there are some rules that when 1 model has it the whole unit benefits from it, and some rules that states that all models in the unit need that rule for the unit to benefit from it.

That is correct that some are more restrictive than others, nor did I dismiss those. What I said is that the IC just doesn't have to possess it to be affected by it. It all depends on the rule itself. Stubborn does not grant its affect to any model, just the unit as a whole. A BAngel Librarian in a DAngel Stubborn unit would then be affected as if it DID have Stubborn, and yet, never actually possess it.

Two cases where an IC must have a rule in order to be affected by it are Counter-Attack and Fleet. While a unit is activated to Counter-Attack, a model must still possess the rule to gain the bonus. Fleet requires all models in the unit to possess it in order to be used. In both cases, this is spelled out as such.

Wallur wrote:
So, I don't know the wording of Skyhammer rule, I don't know if what allows the unit to charge the turn they arrive via DS/dissembark. i don't know if it is a rule "all models must have" or a "if a model have"

They are quite simple. They state:

Skyhammer dataslate wrote:Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation’s Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force’s Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.

All are directed at units, either generically, or by name. Some believe that by naming the units, this excludes any ICs from the rule, yet cannot provide a rule to support it.

**jeffersonian000**

People are still ignoring the IC rules that tells us that an attached IC gains the benefits and penalties of rules effecting the unit the IC is attached to. This means that in order for the CM to be able the charge on arrival with a Skyhammer Assault Squad, the CM most be able to legally join the squad in reserve and be able to arrive by Deep Strike, the restrictions of which are met by simply added a Jump Pack to the CM.

These threads keep popping up because people don't read the rules.

SJ

**Wallur**

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

There, as it says "On the turn they arrive from Deep strike... the unit have the Relentless and can charge"

So, the unit recieves the "bonus" to charge at that moment, and at that moment the IC is part of the unit. It's OK the IC gains it too, but because he is part of the unit at the moment it gains the rule.

Supressing fusillade it's indifferent if the IC has it or not.

But the last:
Leave no survivors: I have my doubt, but will discuss this another time.