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2015/08/03 16:22:13
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
I'm prepping for a little debate on this topic, taking the side that if a model can fire multiple weapons in the shooting phase, that it can also do so in Overwatch. But it seems pretty crystal clear to me. Can someone give me a run-down of the reasons why this would be disallowed? To save space, I've put in the spoiler blow my thought-process:
Spoiler:
The shooting phase's attacks occur as following:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.
4. Roll To Hit.
5. Roll To Wound.
6. Allocate Wound & Remove Casualties.
7. Select Another Weapon.
Resolve Overwatch, paragraph 3: "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase)and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on.
Monstrous Creatures, Shooting, paragraph 1: "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target."
From what I can see, the above steps apply to shots made any time the unit shoots with a weapon, and that includes Overwatch. The only difference between a regular "shooting phase" shot and "Overwatch" shot is that you skip Steps #1 & #2. As such, since a Monstrous Creature fires twice in the shooting phase, it can fire twice in Overwatch. Same would apply to Tau shooting with the Multi-Tracker.
I forsee one main counter-argument: My opponent may argue that the Monstrous Creature (and Multi-tracker) rules state "each Shooting Phase", but since this is an "Assault Phase", it does not count. However, I don't think that holds...
Weapon Profiles; Number of Shots, paragraph 3:
"For example, a multi-laser is a Heavy weapon that fires three shots each Shooting phase, so its type is Heavy 3."
This is the only place in the rules where it defines what "number of shots" means, and it uses the phrasing "each Shooting phase" just like shooting for Monstrous Creatures. By the argument that "each Shooting Phase" means "only for shots made in the Shooting phase", then nothing could fire during overwatch, since it is not the shooting phase. Each shooting phase must, therefore, mean "each time the unit is selected to shoot a weapon".
Another possible argument (though not exactly a counter-argument) is: If you can fire two weapons with a Monstrous Creature, then a model with Split Fire may shoot at a different target, and that can't be right. In reponse:
Split Fire; Resolve Overwatch, paragragph 2:
"As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker."
This interrupts Step #1 and #2 of the order of shooting. Note, it does not make the decision for you - the steps just never occur. You proceed immediately to Step #3 (Select a Weapon) and continue from there.
Am I missing anything?
Thanks!
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2015/08/03 16:54:45
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Ah this old debate, I wonder how the changes within the Shooting Sequence will affect peoples out-look to this question: Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase. - Which Models can Fire
Previous Rules didn't account for the possibility of firing weapons outside of the Shooting Phase, so the restriction on firing one Weapon was also limited to the Shooting Phase, and thus created a few twists when it came to Overwatch. While it now takes into account that Shooting is something that may occur in every single Phase, it has done so in a way that raises even more questions to what the Authors Intended. By singling out Monstrous Creatures as an example of a Unit Type allowed to fire more then one Weapon per Phase, it is actually more confusing to understand what the Authors Intended.
I still have a problem with this one clause because it is very poor rule writing: An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on. - Resolve Overwatch
No Rule should ever use 'catch all' terminology, not in a system this complicated, as there will always be situations that do not fit such ambiguous wording. The Author needs to take time to inform us exactly what Rules are being referenced and how the interact, or the Players will not understand exactly how the Rule is meant to be obeyed. In this case we have a Rule stating we use the normal Rules for... and so on... which many have always taken to include 'Shooting Phase' Rules if they are part of the normal way the Model resolves the Shooting Sequence. This would obviously not be a problem if the Author gave us a complete list of which Shooting Sequence Rules we are to use during Overwatch, instead of requiring us to make our own complete list of which Rules are part of a 'normal shooting attack.'
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/03 17:07:48
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
2015/08/03 17:40:37
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Same as you, I think it would fire 2 weapons (even though last time my Tyrant was charged I only fired the EG as overwatch, firing the TW would be in vain since the charger was a walker with AV14)
But I think it could fire both TLDevs agains a charging blob
2015/08/04 03:27:15
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Define 'Normal'
"conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected."
What's are the standard, usual, typical or expecte rules for a normal shooting attacking?
All those rules in the shooting phase section, weapons section, the general principles section (LoS), the unit types section and any relivent the rules from the special rules section and any rules relivent from a codex or unit entry.
Also
Is it standard for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it usual for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it typical for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it expected that a MC will fire two weapons?
The answer to each of those is yes.
The same applies to any unit that can fire more than one weapon, like Tau Battlesuits or Vehicles.
IXLoiero95XI wrote: Define 'Normal'
"conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected."
What's are the standard, usual, typical or expecte rules for a normal shooting attacking?
All those rules in the shooting phase section, weapons section, the general principles section (LoS), the unit types section and any relivent the rules from the special rules section and any rules relivent from a codex or unit entry.
Also
Is it standard for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it usual for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it typical for a MC to fire two weapons?
Is it expected that a MC will fire two weapons?
The answer to each of those is yes.
The same applies to any unit that can fire more than one weapon, like Tau Battlesuits or Vehicles.
I see where you are coming from but, when people use this argument I just see it as:
Is it standard for Jet Pack Infantry to fire two weapons?
Is it usual for Jet Pack Infantry to fire two weapons?
Is it typical for Jet Pack Infantry to fire two weapons?
Is it expected that Jet Pack Infantry will fire two weapons?
The answer to each of those is no.
2015/08/04 04:32:25
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Not entirely true. The same goes for my argument too as not all MC are armed with two weapons.
The only Jet Pack Infantry that I know of (I could be wrong though) are Tau Battlesuits.
Is it standard for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
No
Is it usual for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is quite usual.
Is it typical for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is typical for a Jet Pack Infantry Model to do so.
Is it expected for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is expected that Jet Pack Infantry models can fire up to two weapons.
Yup, there's not really any reasonable argument against this. All of the shooting rules deal with the shooting phase, because that's when shooting generally happens.
You carry out an Overwatch attack exactly like a normal round of shooting. So there is absolutely no reason to limit MCs to a single weapon... particularly since if you're discounting rules that refer specifically to the shooting phase, you have no rule telling you how many weapons any model can fire and (as was pointed out) no rule telling you how many shots their weapons fire.
2015/08/04 08:32:55
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
IXLoiero95XI wrote: Not entirely true. The same goes for my argument too as not all MC are armed with two weapons.
The only Jet Pack Infantry that I know of (I could be wrong though) are Tau Battlesuits.
Is it standard for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
No
Is it usual for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is quite usual.
Is it typical for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is typical for a Jet Pack Infantry Model to do so.
Is it expected for Jet Pack Infantry to fire up to two weapons?
Yes, most Jet Pack Infantry are Tau Battlesuits who are armed with Multi-Trackers and can fire up to two weapons. So yes it is expected that Jet Pack Infantry models can fire up to two weapons.
Jet pack infantry also includes Destroyers from Necrons, and Warp Spiders from Eldar. Also "Tau Battlesuits" is a little misleading, I am referring to Crisis Suits as Stealthsuits have multi-trackers and are jet pack infantry but only have one weapon (I believe), and Broadsides have two weapons with their multi-trackers but are not jet pack infantry.
2015/08/04 13:38:43
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
A lot of it comes down to where you draw the line of "like a normal shooting".
I might argue non-overwatch shooting goes like this.
1. Check if the model can shoot a weapon.
2. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
3. Choose a Target.
4. Select a Weapon.
5. Roll To Hit.
6. Roll To Wound.
7. Allocate Wounds
8.Saves.
9. Remove Casualties.
This works fine for shooting 2 weapons in the shooting phase. When you get to the first step MCs and Multitrackers check go through once, check again and see it is the shooting phase so they can shoot again. In overwatch they shoot once then check and see if it is the shooting phase. It is not so they do not have permission and can't. So in a "normal" shooting phase they still have to check to see if they meet the conditional of being in the shooting phase.
"For example, a multi-laser is a Heavy weapon that fires three shots each Shooting phase, so its type is Heavy 3."
This is an example, not a statement. It is not giving or denying permission. If this clarification was not in the book then a multi-laser would still be heavy 3. Where as if you took the shoot twice in the shooting phase rule away you would not be able to shoot twice.
I guess the summery is I see in a normal shooting phase you have to be in the shooting phase to shoot twice.
2015/08/07 18:25:59
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
deviant cadaver wrote: A lot of it comes down to where you draw the line of "like a normal shooting".
I might argue non-overwatch shooting goes like this.
1. Check if the model can shoot a weapon.
2. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
3. Choose a Target.
4. Select a Weapon.
5. Roll To Hit.
6. Roll To Wound.
7. Allocate Wounds
8.Saves.
9. Remove Casualties.
This works fine for shooting 2 weapons in the shooting phase. When you get to the first step MCs and Multitrackers check go through once, check again and see it is the shooting phase so they can shoot again. In overwatch they shoot once then check and see if it is the shooting phase. It is not so they do not have permission and can't. So in a "normal" shooting phase they still have to check to see if they meet the conditional of being in the shooting phase.
"For example, a multi-laser is a Heavy weapon that fires three shots each Shooting phase, so its type is Heavy 3."
This is an example, not a statement. It is not giving or denying permission. If this clarification was not in the book then a multi-laser would still be heavy 3. Where as if you took the shoot twice in the shooting phase rule away you would not be able to shoot twice.
I guess the summery is I see in a normal shooting phase you have to be in the shooting phase to shoot twice.
Actually we had discussed this... and for each unit, you repeat stepts 3 through 9 (as said in the BRB), you never go back to step 1 for that same unit. And 1 MC is 1 Unit.
The Shooting Sequence wrote:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot buthas yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, at step 3, a MC, let's say a Carnifex or Flyrant, usually both equiped with 2 TLDevs, all models equiped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot.
Or if you want it considering it a diff weapon, on step 7, when you select other weapon, the other TLDev, you go from 3 to 7... and 3 only limits fire to "See and be in range".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/07 20:36:22
2015/08/07 21:19:30
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Actually we had discussed this... and for each unit, you repeat stepts 3 through 9 (as said in the BRB), you never go back to step 1 for that same unit. And 1 MC is 1 Unit.
By that logic a unit with a bolt pistol and a bolt gun could shoot twice as well. If you never recheck that it meets the requirements after the first shot.
Think of it like Salvo weapons, when you fire them in overwatch you still have to check the conditional if the moved to know how many shots they get. When you overwatch with a MC you still have to check the conditional if it is the shooting phase. " like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase)" So in a normal shooting phase a MC can shoot two weapons if it is the shooting phase. The same way a salvo weapon can shoot more if it has not moved. Look at walkers, they can clearly fire all of their weapons, because their overwatch is not dependent on the phase. Can fire like a normal shooting phase doesn't make it a shooting phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 21:44:36
2015/08/07 21:56:31
Subject: Re:Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Ok, I have been talking to my friend about this, and he said this point has not been brought up.
I brought up the point that walkers can fire their weapons during overwatch(more then one); my argument is why would GW let "walkers shoot their weapons"(multple weapons) in overwatch and MC's only be allowed to shoot 1 weapon when they can normally shoot 2 in the 'Shooting Phase' which overwatch is treated like a normal shooting phase.
2015/08/07 22:01:57
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Different Unit Types have different Rules, so what is valid for one Unit Type does not automatically mean it is valid for all Unit Types.
I want to once more say that I personally hate how poorly written this Rule is, it never should have been left up to the players to define 'normal' and 'and so on.'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/07 22:02:49
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
2015/08/08 18:04:34
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
deviant cadaver wrote: Think of it like Salvo weapons, when you fire them in overwatch you still have to check the conditional if the moved to know how many shots they get. When you overwatch with a MC you still have to check the conditional if it is the shooting phase. "
Salvo Weapons is a Checking for the weapon, not the model. Cheking how many weapons to fire is a checking for the unit/model, not the weapon.
Can fire like a normal shooting phase doesn't make it a shooting phase.
In fact everything that says "treat B like A" means that EVERYTHING that aplies to A aplies to B. If you have to check something and it says "Can fire like a normal shooting phase" then all rules that aply to the shooting phase aplies here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/08 18:04:59
2015/08/09 06:08:46
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Salvo Weapons is a Checking for the weapon, not the model. Cheking how many weapons to fire is a checking for the unit/model, not the weapon.
Both salvo and MC have conditionals attached. Salvo is a great example of something having a conditional number of shots. The rules say MCs have the condition of being in the shooting phase to shoot twice. Nothing gives you permission to not check the condition because the condition. When a tank shoots you have to check the conditional of it being shaken or stunned, so I don't see why you would not check the condition of it being the shooting phase for a MC.
In fact everything that says "treat B like A" means that EVERYTHING that aplies to A aplies to B. If you have to check something and it says "Can fire like a normal shooting phase" then all rules that aply to the shooting phase aplies here.
That is an interpretation of what you think like means and besides it is not true. Tanks are like walkers. This does not mean that everything that applies to tanks apply to walker. Even if like applied like that it wouldn't matter.
MC shoots in shooting phase:
1. Check if the model can shoot. ( check for gun) (check if it is the shooting phase)( check for permissive denying special rules)
2. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
3. Choose a Target.
4. Select a Weapon.
5. Roll To Hit.
6. Roll To Wound.
7. Allocate Wounds
8.Saves.
9. take wounds
10. Check if the model can shoot again ( check for second gun) (check if the model has a rule to let it shoot twice)(check if the condition for it to shoot twice is met )( check for permissive denying special rules) If all of these pass it can shoot again.
MC shoots in assault phase:
Repeat.
Even the overwatch rule says it is the assault phase. So at this point having already shot a weapon it checks if it can shoot another. It can, but under the condition that it is the shooting phase. It is not the shooting phase so it can not shoot another weapon.
You are changing it from "resolved like a normal shooting attack" to is a normal shooting attack and "like" simple does not mean "is" nor does it mean EVERYTHING between them is the same. I apologies if it seems like I am attacking your syntax, but I don't think you can say (A is like B) is the same as ( A = B) It is a permissive rule set so during overwatch it is not the shooting phase therefore MCs can not shoot another weapon.
A psyker can shoot in the psychic phase like it is the shooting phase. That doesn't mean the psychic phase is the shooting phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/09 06:14:31
2015/08/10 13:27:43
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
Salvo Weapons is a Checking for the weapon, not the model. Cheking how many weapons to fire is a checking for the unit/model, not the weapon.
Both salvo and MC have conditionals attached. Salvo is a great example of something having a conditional number of shots. The rules say MCs have the condition of being in the shooting phase to shoot twice. Nothing gives you permission to not check the condition because the condition. When a tank shoots you have to check the conditional of it being shaken or stunned, so I don't see why you would not check the condition of it being the shooting phase for a MC.
First, Salvo is Conditional, Tanks BS is conditional, MC firing 2 weapons is not conditional.
In fact everything that says "treat B like A" means that EVERYTHING that aplies to A aplies to B. If you have to check something and it says "Can fire like a normal shooting phase" then all rules that aply to the shooting phase aplies here.
That is an interpretation of what you think like means and besides it is not true. Tanks are like walkers. This does not mean that everything that applies to tanks apply to walker. Even if like applied like that it wouldn't matter.
In the BRB it never says "treat Tanks like Walkers" when the BRB say "Treat A like B" means, ruling aplying to A aplies to B. "DS on Difficult terrain Treat it like Dangerous terrain" so you have to make the Difficult Terrain rolls. Witchfire Treat it as a shooting attack. Nova, (after special targeting and hiting" Otherwise is treated as a shooting attack. As for witchfires that say are treated exactly as shooting attacks, BRB specifies can't overwatch. Yes, Tanks are vehicles, Walkers are Vehicles. BOTH are treated like vehicles in general, EXCEPT from the special ruling (walkers always terated for fron AV while tanks Rear AV in CC, Walker can overwatch, while Tanks can't)
MC shoots in shooting phase:
1. Check if the model can shoot. ( check for gun) (check if it is the shooting phase)( check for permissive denying special rules)
2. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
3. Choose a Target.
4. Select a Weapon.
5. Roll To Hit.
6. Roll To Wound.
7. Allocate Wounds
8.Saves.
9. take wounds
10. Check if the model can shoot again ( check for second gun) (check if the model has a rule to let it shoot twice)(check if the condition for it to shoot twice is met )( check for permissive denying special rules) If all of these pass it can shoot again.
MC shoots in assault phase:
Repeat.
Again, the 7th BRB states otherwise.
The Shooting Sequence
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6.
Even the overwatch rule says it is the assault phase. So at this point having already shot a weapon it checks if it can shoot another. It can, but under the condition that it is the shooting phase. It is not the shooting phase so it can not shoot another weapon.
Let's check that for a MC:
1- Nominate the MC being charged since is the only unit I can nominate due to overwatch rules
2- Choose as target the charging unit (since I can't target any other) due to overwatch rules
3- I select Electroshock Grubs
4- Roll to hit
5-Roll to wound
6- allocate wounds and remove casualties.
7- I select the TLDev 3- All models with TLDEV shoots, is in range, have LoS,
4-7.
You are changing it from "resolved like a normal shooting attack" to is a normal shooting attack and "like" simple does not mean "is" nor does it mean EVERYTHING between them is the same. I apologies if it seems like I am attacking your syntax, but I don't think you can say (A is like B) is the same as ( A = B) It is a permissive rule set so during overwatch it is not the shooting phase therefore MCs can not shoot another weapon.
A psyker can shoot in the psychic phase like it is the shooting phase. That doesn't mean the psychic phase is the shooting phase.
During a Normal shooting attack (the one in the shooting phase, nothing is more normal than the normal action during the phase destined to it) a MC can fire 2 weapons.
So if I "resolve an Overwatch like a normal shooting attack but all shots are snap shots" then the MC can fire 2 weapons as Overwatch Snap Shots.
Psykers shooting in the psychihc phase are not normal Shooting Attacks, they are treated as Shooting attacks, nut the rule for witchfire SPECIALLY FORBIDS Overwatch.
2015/08/11 19:31:07
Subject: Debate Prep: MC's firing two weapons in Overwatch
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