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Other than using it as Heavy Support and using it to carry two to three units of Space Marines, what purpose does it serve? The Terminators already have a way to travel, and using some special rules from different units, they don't scatter on Deep Strike. Seems like Predators, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators would have more firepower. I know I am missing something since I'm a newbie, but I can't figure out what I'm missing. Why are Land Raiders (and variants) used?

Thanks in advance

SG

Land raiders are generally considered overcosted for their purpose, but they are also the only way that loyalist Marines can assault out of a vehicle. Unlike from deepstriking, the termis don't have to suffer a turn of fire before assaulting. Also it gives an extra 6" assault range to a slow unit (6" LR move, 6" disembark +2d6 charge compared to 6" move and +2d6 charge for termis on foot). They used to be allright in a BA AV14 spam when their troops could take them but even then weren't terribly competitive and that was before all this long ranged D, haywire and cheap highstrength low ap ordnance/tankhunter all infiltrated its way into the game.
They can also keep OS units safe and snug for an extremely high points cost.

The only reason I use land raider is for the assault vehicle rule.

Deepstriking terminators have to weather a full turn of shooting before they can assault. Also, the thing they want to assault might run away.

A landraider can protect them a bit before they jump out and assault.

As of the firepower that a land raider has, I'd rather have 2x devastator squads for similar points.

Well for one thing the big problem with a terminator deep strike is that turn where you show up, usually scatter (not sure what rule you're using for DSNS but I've never seen it outside of DEldar) and then you're standing there awkwardly in base to base combat.

"Please don't aim that plasma cannon over he-" is usually what terminators I see deep striking get to say.

The land raider, besides being capable of transporting any unit you want and being the imperium's only assault vehicle (I've seen ogryns, assault marines, BT crusader squads, even assault scouts loaded into land raiders) it's the most durable thing the marines have at 14/14/14 4HP. Nothing is tougher than that that isn't a Superheavy.

So, would you recommend a Land Raider for a transport of Space Marines and firepower or a Rhino/Razorback for transport (and some firepower) plus a Predator/Whirlwind/Vindicator for firepower?

The latter costs less (point-wise) and seems like the better option with the exception of the 14 Armor of the Land Raiders.

SG

ServiceGames wrote:
So, would you recommend a Land Raider for a transport of Space Marines and firepower or a Rhino/Razorback for transport (and some firepower) plus a Predator/Whirlwind/Vindicator for firepower?

The latter costs less (point-wise) and seems like the better option with the exception of the 14 Armor of the Land Raiders.

SG

A rhino can't carry terminators and isn't an assault vehicle.

What are you wanting to put in the Rhino/Razorback? Perhaps tell us the idea for your army.

Dark Angels (the chapter I play) have a few rules using Homing Locators and Belial where they don't scatter on Deep Strike. They also have this rule which my guess applies on the turn they Deep Strike, but it may be my misunderstanding of the rules...

Vengeful Strike: A model with the Deathwing special rule that arrives by Deep Strike treats all of its ranged weapons as having the Twin-linked special rule until the end of the turn.

Again, while I could be wrong, that leads me to believe that Deathwing Terminators can fire on the turn they Deep Strike (and have a pretty good chance of not scattering on Deep Strike).

SG

the_scotsman wrote:
Well for one thing the big problem with a terminator deep strike is that turn where you show up, usually scatter (not sure what rule you're using for DSNS but I've never seen it outside of DEldar) and then you're standing there awkwardly in base to base combat.

"Please don't aim that plasma cannon over he-" is usually what terminators I see deep striking get to say.

The land raider, besides being capable of transporting any unit you want and being the imperium's only assault vehicle (I've seen ogryns, assault marines, BT crusader squads, even assault scouts loaded into land raiders) it's the most durable thing the marines have at 14/14/14 4HP. Nothing is tougher than that that isn't a Superheavy.

Don't forget a Spartan ;-)... 5hps and the option to have melta immunity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ServiceGames wrote:
Dark Angels (the chapter I play) have a few rules using Homing Locators and Belial where they don't scatter on Deep Strike. They also have this rule which my guess applies on the turn they Deep Strike, but it may be my misunderstanding of the rules...

Vengeful Strike: A model with the Deathwing special rule that arrives by Deep Strike treats all of its ranged weapons as having the Twin-linked special rule until the end of the turn.

Again, while I could be wrong, that leads me to believe that Deathwing Terminators can fire on the turn they Deep Strike (and have a pretty good chance of not scattering on Deep Strike).

SG

Everyone can fire on the turn they deepstrike. There are indeed lots of different ways to reduce scatter or eliminate it for imperials.
-DoA WL trait
-Locator beacon
-Teleport homor
-Servo Skulls
To name a few.

 kronk wrote:
A rhino can't carry terminators and isn't an assault vehicle.

What are you wanting to put in the Rhino/Razorback? Perhaps tell us the idea for your army.

You are correct, but Deathwing Terminators don't need to be carried (at least as I understand the rules). So, if my Terminators don't need a transport, the Space Marines are the only ones who would as the Ravenwing is Fast Attack. A Rhino does have a dedicated Storm Bolter that it can use to attack.

Idea for the army:

HQ
Sammael in Sableclaw

Troops
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad with a dedicated Drop Pod in Deep Strike Reserve
6 man Space Marine Tactical Squad in Razorback with Twin-linked Lascannons

Detachments
Deathwing Redemption Force
- Belial (Being the Grand Master of the Deathwing, he and his unit do not scatter when arriving by Deep Strike)
- 2 Deathwing Terminator Squads

Formations (this particular formation has a rule called Summon the Deathwing which keeps the Terminators from scattering as well)
2 Ravenwing Attack Squads each consisting of
- 1 Ravenwing Land Speeder with Typhoon Missile Launchers
- 1 Ravenwing Bike Squad

Again, I'm a newbie, so I may be missing something completely. Please let me know if I am.

Thanks in advance!

SG

The solo Drop Pod, it will last about .25 parts of the 1st turn because it will be Isolated and quickly removed. If you are going to Pod, Go BIG or don't bother.

I use one drop pod all the time. It works fine. Better than most other BA units, actually.

I'm fine with 1 pod. Make sure you're pointing those 10 tac marines somewhere useful. They aren't long for this world!

As far as lists go, that's fine. A few points that maybe confusing you. All models that deepstrike can shoot their weapons. No models that deepstrike can assault anyone. I think we've been talking past each other. After deepstrike, you can run to spread out or get closer to your target, or you can shoot something. I hope that's clear. The advantage of the Land Raider is that you can jump out of it and assault on the same turn.


As for the list itself.

1. Belail and Samiel are huge point sinks. Lots of points tied into 7 wounds? What is Belail giving you in that CAD?

2. 6 tacticals in a razorback is pretty standard.

3. I'm a fan of bikes and speeders, so those are fine. Meltas or Assault Cannons on the speeders? What do the bikes have? Can you take Grav guns?

4. What do the terminators have?

1) Makes perfect sense, and I do appreciate you clearing that up.

2) You are correct. They are huge point sinks. While the Sableclaw is open topped and has only 3HP, it does have 14 armor all around. So, it'll be tougher to hit. And, if it needs to get out of a danger zone, it can flat out 30". So, I'm good with spending the points on Sammael. As far as Belial goes, the ability to Deep Strike anywhere without scattering is big... is it worth the price of admission seeing that the Ravenwing can call in the Deathwing without scattering... that's tough to say as of yet. I haven't had a chance to play this configuration.

4) Right now, one Ravenwing Attack Squad is running with Flamers... Heavy on the Speeder and regular on the bikes. The other unit is running just a Heavy Bolter on the Speeder and Plasma Guns (which probably could be easily called Grav Guns) on the bikes.

5) Dark Vengeance Terminators so each squad has...
3 x Powerfist
1 x Chainfist
3 x Storm Bolter
1 x Assault Cannon

I don't intend to play competitively, and the guys at my local shop are really laid back. So, I'm sure they won't mind if I use just tell them to ignore the bolter glued to the speeder. Instead, he's using the flamer on the bottom... same with the bikes.

Actually Sableclaw is AV10 in the back, so be wary of people getting behind Sammy or punching his Speeder.

This is the actual full army listing right now (though it's probably going to change with time):

HQ
Sammael in Sableclaw 200

Troops
9 Tactical Squad: 7× Bolt Pistol; Plasma Gun; Plasma Cannon; + 1 Veteran Sergeant (Chainsword; Plasma Pistol) 195
• Drop Pod 35
5 Tactical Squad: 5× Bolt Pistol; Space Marine Sergeant (Chainsword; Plasma Pistol) 99
• Razorback: Twin Linked Heavy Flamer 55
4 Scout Squad: 3× Sniper Rifle; 4× Camo Cloaks; Missile Launcher; + 1 Scout Sergeant (Sniper Rifle; Camo Cloak) 84

Elites
Mortis Dreadnought (Forge World): 2x Twin-linked Lascannon 155

Heavy Support
1 Predators
• Predator: Twin Linked Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons 120

Detachments
Deathwing Strike Force
• Belial 190
• 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad: 3× Powerfist; Chainfist; 3× Storm Bolter; Assault Cannon; + 1 Deathwing Sergeant 225
• 4 Deathwing Terminator Squad: 3× Powerfist; Chainfist; 3× Storm Bolter; Assault Cannon; + 1 Deathwing Sergeant 225

Formations
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
• 1 Ravenwing Land Speeders: Heavy Flamer; Typhoon Missile Launcher 75
• 2 Ravenwing Bike Squad: 2× Flamer 85
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
• 1 Ravenwing Land Speeders: Typhoon Missile Launcher 75
• 2 Ravenwing Bike Squad: 2× Plasma Gun 105

Fortifications
Aegis Defence Lines: Comms Relay 75

1,998 points


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Actually Sableclaw is AV10 in the back, so be wary of people getting behind Sammy or punching his Speeder.

You are correct. Thank you for the reminder!

SG

ServiceGames wrote:
Other than using it as Heavy Support and using it to carry two to three units of Space Marines, what purpose does it serve? The Terminators already have a way to travel, and using some special rules from different units, they don't scatter on Deep Strike. Seems like Predators, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators would have more firepower. I know I am missing something since I'm a newbie, but I can't figure out what I'm missing. Why are Land Raiders (and variants) used?

Thanks in advance

SG

I recognize that the thread has gone off into list building, but I wanted to touch on the main inquiry. Landraiders can move things that are more than just Terminators. 15 bloodclaws being lead by a wolf priest out of a Crusader is just awesome to behold. BT have squads of guys who have worse armor and lower ranged guns, but do their damage in assault. These type of units are what the crusader and Redeemer are made for. It gives larger squads protection as they cross the table, and allows some offensive firepower to happen. Bloodclaws are not going to be shooting anybody with there bolt pistols as they walk, so why not ride.

Landraiders also can provide some harder choices. It takes S8 guns to strip hull points, so they are immune to much of the firepower that easilly kills rhinos and drop pods. I realize that in a meta flooded with Strengh D weapons, or gauss weapons the survivability is a little less, but hey, Tau missile sides, plasma suits, and many other of the more spammed guns cant touch it.

Rip those flamers off those bikes, champ! Bikers are relentless, so they can charge because BIKES. If you are close enough to use the flamer, you could be using twin linked rapid fire bolters.

Give them some utility instead via melta (tank hunting) or plasma/grav guns (heavy infantry).

I wish they made a cheapo lr by gutting the weapons and starting every av at 13. You can pay an upgrade to get 14 all around. How about an empty metal box that can hold 10 models with assault ramps with av13 all around for 100pts.

 Filch wrote:
I wish they made a cheapo lr by gutting the weapons and starting every av at 13. You can pay an upgrade to get 14 all around. How about an empty metal box that can hold 10 models with assault ramps with av13 all around for 100pts.

I would rather have an ability to beef up any Rhino-pattern tank's armor by 2 all around to a maximum of 14. Call it Reinforced Plating. Have it cost like 20 pts or so. I would rather they gave the Land Raider a longer ranged front weapon or the ability to add TMLs or take TMLs as the front cannon.

So a av13 rhino for 55pts... seems legit.

For 70pts i can get an av14 rhino.

So my suggestion of a 100pt av13 lr doesnt sound op and under costed at all?

 Filch wrote:
Do a av13 rhino for 55pts... seems legit.

An AV 13/13/12 Rhino/Razorback for 55/75 pts, a 14/13/12 Predator/Vindicator for 95+/140 pts, 13/13/12 Whirlwind for 85 pts, 14/14/12 Hunters/Stalkers 90/95 pts. Almost all of those would be worth it, which means it would never happen.

On topic, Land Raiders aren't required, but they do keep your Terminators alive. Since they can't really do much of anything if they teleport in (giving them the ability to Assault after Deep Striking would REALLY help them become less overcosted), they have a tendency to get shot up before they can get around to doing the thing they are good at, which is assaulting.

EDIT: You edited while I posted. No, your box of transportation doesn't sound overpowered at all. 100 pts for a Land Raider with a Heavy Bolter(upgradeable to an Assault Cannon for 10 pts) on the front would not be bad at all, IMO. Heck, they already have a kit for it (it would just be a regular Land Raider with a second set of doors).

The beauty of AV14 is that its immune to anything S7 and under. This is especially helpful since S6/S7 is mostly found on multi shot weapons which are the most famous for stripping hull points. Yeah, the LR is probably base 50 points too expensive, but I think a different vehicle is just not needed. Especially one that will just be stripped as easily most other races AV12/13 transports.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The beauty of AV14 is that its immune to anything S7 and under. This is especially helpful since S6/S7 is mostly found on multi shot weapons which are the most famous for stripping hull points. Yeah, the LR is probably base 50 points too expensive, but I think a different vehicle is just not needed. Especially one that will just be stripped as easily most other races AV12/13 transports.

On the other hand, assault is generally not a good strategy in 7th and the LR has terrible dakka/pt. And Str D exists. It needs a price drop badly. Even after you drive your terminators across the board, I'll make your 500 pts investment assault a throw away unit and then shoot the terminators off the table. Not being able to consolidate into a new CC makes assault so very, very weak.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The beauty of AV14 is that its immune to anything S7 and under. This is especially helpful since S6/S7 is mostly found on multi shot weapons which are the most famous for stripping hull points. Yeah, the LR is probably base 50 points too expensive, but I think a different vehicle is just not needed. Especially one that will just be stripped as easily most other races AV12/13 transports.

On the other hand, assault is generally not a good strategy in 7th and the LR has terrible dakka/pt. And Str D exists. It needs a price drop badly. Even after you drive your terminators across the board, I'll make your 500 pts investment assault a throw away unit and then shoot the terminators off the table. Not being able to consolidate into a new CC makes assault so very, very weak.

No it does not, the Space Marines have way too much good stuff as it is. You can have your price drop when the Leman Russ variants are dropped down to a more reasonable points value.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The beauty of AV14 is that its immune to anything S7 and under. This is especially helpful since S6/S7 is mostly found on multi shot weapons which are the most famous for stripping hull points. Yeah, the LR is probably base 50 points too expensive, but I think a different vehicle is just not needed. Especially one that will just be stripped as easily most other races AV12/13 transports.

On the other hand, assault is generally not a good strategy in 7th and the LR has terrible dakka/pt. And Str D exists. It needs a price drop badly. Even after you drive your terminators across the board, I'll make your 500 pts investment assault a throw away unit and then shoot the terminators off the table. Not being able to consolidate into a new CC makes assault so very, very weak.

No it does not, the Space Marines have way too much good stuff as it is. You can have your price drop when the Leman Russ variants are dropped down to a more reasonable points value.

Space marines have a few good things that get spammed over and over. The rest is mostly unusable crap. Think units BA have access to. All the good stuff is vanilla only for the most part. Leman Russ suffered a lot when they got rid of lumbering behemoth, I agree. Both LR and Leman Russ need a drop for the reality of 7th ed.

ServiceGames wrote:
Dark Angels (the chapter I play) have a few rules using Homing Locators and Belial where they don't scatter on Deep Strike. They also have this rule which my guess applies on the turn they Deep Strike, but it may be my misunderstanding of the rules...

Vengeful Strike: A model with the Deathwing special rule that arrives by Deep Strike treats all of its ranged weapons as having the Twin-linked special rule until the end of the turn.

Again, while I could be wrong, that leads me to believe that Deathwing Terminators can fire on the turn they Deep Strike (and have a pretty good chance of not scattering on Deep Strike).

SG

except belial is worthless but that's a discussion for another day.

The problem is that when terminators deepstrike they often go splat.
They get plasma cannoned and vindicatored into the next time zone. One time I had terminators killed by a plasma cannon off a Russ and their bodies landed in a cities of death match on the other side of the store!!

Terminators are hopelessly clunky and have a bad bad bad treat range when on foot. The raider and the various assault vehicle gunships like the caestus and the stormbird are the only vehicles we possess to bring them to bear where we want them as opposed to hoping we get close enough off the deepstrike to maybe someday reach their target and kill it.