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Hey dakka, I was flicking through the IG dex today and stumbled across some things I'm kinda interested in, but not sure if they're actually any good.

Firstly, are mortar and heavy bolter teams any good and worth using? Being str 4 and ap6 for mortars, they don't sound fenominal, especially with IG BS, but 3 blasts on a squad seems good, and 48 range is cool too. And 3 shots of str 5 seems cool from the heavy bolters, but thy don't seem worth it when you can take autocannons for the same price, which trade a single shot for way better str, range and AP...

Secondly, is a squad of 3 armoured sentinels worth it? I'd equip them with 2 autocannons and a lascannon for some tank hunting goodness. My concern though is that they could be an incredibly easy kill point for the enemy (plus $50 a model in aus :S)

Thirdly and finally, is it better to take vets with 4+ armour, or to spam infantry platoons? Or does it depend on play style preference? I only ask this as teams of vets would be cheaper to buy, as you'd buy less haha, but if one is generally more optimal I'd go with that.

Sorry if these questions are dumb, I've been moving around armies lately, and finally settled on IG, so just want to know what's cool and what's not so I know what to go for.

Cheers guys!

1) mortar teams are ok but wyverns do a much better job for the points. Heavy weapon teams in general are supremely over priced especially since you can equip a regular infantry squad with a heavy weapon for less points.

Armored sentinels are also ok, I prefer the scouts for the scout move and it's less of a point sink.

Veterans are always a good option, I like to mix and match between the blob and veterans, and the 4+ can be handy for certain builds. Remember you can give the vets all 3 of the doctrines if you want but it may be putting too many eggs in one fragile basket

Add up the points of a 3-man HWT with mortars.

Then look at the points of a Wyvern.

Then compare what they do.

That should answer your first question.

Armored Sents tend to be ok if you use psykers to Prescience them.

Veterans go in chimeras, infantry blobs go on foot. I use both.

Tiberius501 wrote:

Firstly, are mortar and heavy bolter teams any good and worth using? Being str 4 and ap6 for mortars, they don't sound fenominal, especially with IG BS, but 3 blasts on a squad seems good, and 48 range is cool too. And 3 shots of str 5 seems cool from the heavy bolters, but thy don't seem worth it when you can take autocannons for the same price, which trade a single shot for way better str, range and AP...

The traditional answer is: mortars are generally not powerful enough to do much damage. Their advantage is you don't need to stay in line of sight. Heavy bolters are often already prevalent in the rest of the force, as most vehicles would carry one. Heavy weapon squads in general are not rated highly because they die so easily. A single base dies to one S6+ wound, and the unit quickly panics with LD7. Heavy weapon teams are more often seen as part of (combined) infantry squads. Autocannons and Lascannons are popular choices.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Secondly, is a squad of 3 armoured sentinels worth it? I'd equip them with 2 autocannons and a lascannon for some tank hunting goodness. My concern though is that they could be an incredibly easy kill point for the enemy (plus $50 a model in aus :S)

Sentinels with lascannons suffer from BS3 a lot. I like arming them with plasma cannons and tend to take 2 instead of 3. If you have lots of AV11/12 in your list then the Sentinels could do fine, if not, they might die too soon to be useful.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Thirdly and finally, is it better to take vets with 4+ armour, or to spam infantry platoons? Or does it depend on play style preference? I only ask this as teams of vets would be cheaper to buy, as you'd buy less haha, but if one is generally more optimal I'd go with that.

It depends. Vets without the 4+ can also work. If you go mechanised, vets are the obvious choice as you're not making use of the combined squad ability anyway. There's much to be said for buying as many strong weapons as you can, thus skimping on things like carapace armour, but then again a 4+ can be good when your vehicle or plasma gun explodes.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Sorry if these questions are dumb, I've been moving around armies lately, and finally settled on IG, so just want to know what's cool and what's not so I know what to go for.

No problem. IG have many options, none of which are considered very good in highly competitive arenas currently, but I wouldn't worry about that. Let your army evolve depending on the armies you actually play rather than just internet wisdom .

I'd consider heavy bolter weapon teams if they were cheaper than autocannons. As things are at the moment there's just no place for them. Especially since as mentioned you'll have a lot on your vehicles.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey dakka, I was flicking through the IG dex today and stumbled across some things I'm kinda interested in, but not sure if they're actually any good.

Firstly, are mortar and heavy bolter teams any good and worth using? Being str 4 and ap6 for mortars, they don't sound fenominal, especially with IG BS, but 3 blasts on a squad seems good, and 48 range is cool too. And 3 shots of str 5 seems cool from the heavy bolters, but thy don't seem worth it when you can take autocannons for the same price, which trade a single shot for way better str, range and AP...

Secondly, is a squad of 3 armoured sentinels worth it? I'd equip them with 2 autocannons and a lascannon for some tank hunting goodness. My concern though is that they could be an incredibly easy kill point for the enemy (plus $50 a model in aus :S)

Thirdly and finally, is it better to take vets with 4+ armour, or to spam infantry platoons? Or does it depend on play style preference? I only ask this as teams of vets would be cheaper to buy, as you'd buy less haha, but if one is generally more optimal I'd go with that.

Sorry if these questions are dumb, I've been moving around armies lately, and finally settled on IG, so just want to know what's cool and what's not so I know what to go for.

Cheers guys!

Well, you are brave, starting with IG at the current codex.

Weapon teams vary:
Used on their own they are lackluster, costing more than a regular Infantry squad for less survivability and reliability. With the use of orders you can increase the effectiveness of them with orders but even then they are debatable. The Mortar and HB are actually okay choices but suffer from costing far too much for what they do.
Used as part of a Veteran squad they are not bad provided you dont move too much, making them ideal for squads taking up defensive positions and not moving too much. I use Heavy Bolters in my IG veteran sections and they work really well, augmenting the squads firepower with some extra kick.

Armoured Sentinels are debatable again. On the one hand they now cost something closer to a reasonable cost and actually have an okay front armour. On the other hand they only have 2 HP and are firing at BS 3. If you want to go tank hunting then Scout Sentinels with Autocannons and Hunterkillers make amazing armour busters. You Outflank them behind your opponents tanks and alpha strike on the first turn, the autocannon being amazingly good at chewing through most tanks rear armour (usually needing 3's to glance. With the HK's thrown in you can reliably kill one vehicle on the first alpha and with a bit of luck after that kill one per turn. Just dont try this against a Land Raider - it has AV 14 all round and will kill you.
If you do want to utilise Armoured Sentinels then the best way to use them is as a substitute for Heavy Wepon teams and provide mobile fire support for your Infantry sections. Arm all of them with the same weapon - with Guard BS you are going to need as many shots as possible.
If you still want to go tank hunting with armoured sentinels then load three of them up with Lascannons and use them to prey on vulnerable and already damaged vehicles or to soften a target up for Infantry with Meltas and Krak Grenades.

Veterans are the best choice for your troops right now and whilst expensive the Carapace is well worth it. I would also advise the Forward Sentries doctrine as it gives you an extra +1 to your cover save and denies the enemy the extra attacks for charging them (something you will need) Veterans are right now the best choice for Imperial Guard troops choices as they are one of the few units that has a reliable hit ratio and can take multiple specialist weapons as well as the expensive but fearsome Demolitions doctrine. With Carapace and Forward Sentries they are also more survivable and can actually withstand the basic weapons of other factions.

Right now Platoons are sub-optimal. They are expensive and struggle to hurt their targets - you may be putting 50+ shots downrange but you will still cause an average of only 2 casualties on the target and the Heavy Weapon Teams and Special Weapon Teams suffer from being over priced and very much ineffective. Your basic Platoon is also costing a minimal of 135 points BEFORE upgrades. I do not advise them.

Thanks for all the advice guys! I for some reason still like the idea of mortars as I'm going to be collecting the Death Korps (dem models though) and it seems really fluffy for them. Ill use them in infantry squads rather than heavy wep teams. But I'll skip out on the heavy bolters as, like you guys said, plenty of them on tanks and such. In terms of anti-air, is it worth taking a Hydra or 2? Or is there a cheaper option? I couldn't really see anything else that was great AA apart from maybe a Valkyrie.

Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys! I for some reason still like the idea of mortars as I'm going to be collecting the Death Korps (dem models though) and it seems really fluffy for them. Ill use them in infantry squads rather than heavy wep teams. But I'll skip out on the heavy bolters as, like you guys said, plenty of them on tanks and such. In terms of anti-air, is it worth taking a Hydra or 2? Or is there a cheaper option? I couldn't really see anything else that was great AA apart from maybe a Valkyrie.

If you like it then take it. Ultimately it is your army, the one that you are going to have to build, paint and play. If you do not enjoy it then what is the point?

About the vets, I'd said Carapace Armor is not that great since many many weapons have AP4 or better in the game and in the end, you pay quite a bit for a unit that will die quickly anyway. I really prefer the Forward Sentry doctrine which give them +1 in cover save. I think they will be more durable if you move them well and very often10 high cover save guardsmen holding an objective can be a real pain in the butt for your opponent !

 master of ordinance wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys! I for some reason still like the idea of mortars as I'm going to be collecting the Death Korps (dem models though) and it seems really fluffy for them. Ill use them in infantry squads rather than heavy wep teams. But I'll skip out on the heavy bolters as, like you guys said, plenty of them on tanks and such. In terms of anti-air, is it worth taking a Hydra or 2? Or is there a cheaper option? I couldn't really see anything else that was great AA apart from maybe a Valkyrie.

If you like it then take it. Ultimately it is your army, the one that you are going to have to build, paint and play. If you do not enjoy it then what is the point?

This is true haha but all the stuff you just said also makes sense. Vets with the forward sentry doctrine does sound pretty great. Maybe I'll use them with some heavy weps in, in place of the platoons. And the sentinels with all autocannons/ all lascannons sounds pretty great with scout and such, I'm just afraid that the minuscule armour and HP 2 will get them destroyed instantly, being pretty big targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another quick question: are Basilisks good? They seem cool but their armour seems to make them perhaps a worse choice over lemon russes?

I never really bother with HWS or sentinels as there are better options to use points elsewhere on. Like someone already said taking a wyvern for its low pts cost 4 twin linked ignore cover shred shots would be better than sticking a HWS in one of your platoons.

I don't own sentinels and have never seen anyone field them yet (I'm one of 3 IG players out of 20 or so people at my store and they usually play their other armies) but from what I've heard they are pretty lackluster.

Personally I have been going more of the meltavet in chimera route without any upgrades. 15 points for 4+ armor starts adding up quickly and I try to keep all of my units as cheap as possible in order to field more bodies or vehicles. Blob platoons can work with decent results but they slog across the board painfully slow and its usually better in my experience to keep those guys behind an aegis wall, or in buildings or behind cover holding objectives.

I love the Mortar Squad, you can sit them on a lonely objective (plus they're objective secured troops) and then drop blast shells on enemies from a reasonable distance out of LOS.
Sure they won't do that much damage but they're a psychological problem for your opponent, might distract some fire from your more important units and whatever they do kill is gravy.

I use Heavy Bolters with my infantry squads, sure they're not autocannons but you're not really going to be shooting at light vehicles with your infantry... you'll be going for their infantry and imo, the Heavy Bolter is better at that than the Autocannon.

I think a combination of troops is the better choice. Take a Platoon for utility Heavy Weapon Squads, Cheap Special Weapon Squads, the Platoon Command Squad and maybe Sabre defence platforms. For actually doing the bulk of fighting, I'd take vets... Plasma Vets with Carapace armour and snare mines are nice.

One thing that seems quite good.

If you play against lots of assaulty lists in your local game store, you can bring 2-3 squads of vets with a heavy flamer and 2 regular flamers and the forward sentries doctrine. It will destroy most anything that tries to charge it bar terminators and lychguard.

Tiberius501 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys! I for some reason still like the idea of mortars as I'm going to be collecting the Death Korps (dem models though) and it seems really fluffy for them. Ill use them in infantry squads rather than heavy wep teams. But I'll skip out on the heavy bolters as, like you guys said, plenty of them on tanks and such. In terms of anti-air, is it worth taking a Hydra or 2? Or is there a cheaper option? I couldn't really see anything else that was great AA apart from maybe a Valkyrie.

If you like it then take it. Ultimately it is your army, the one that you are going to have to build, paint and play. If you do not enjoy it then what is the point?

This is true haha but all the stuff you just said also makes sense. Vets with the forward sentry doctrine does sound pretty great. Maybe I'll use them with some heavy weps in, in place of the platoons. And the sentinels with all autocannons/ all lascannons sounds pretty great with scout and such, I'm just afraid that the minuscule armour and HP 2 will get them destroyed instantly, being pretty big targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another quick question: are Basilisks good? They seem cool but their armour seems to make them perhaps a worse choice over lemon russes?

Basilisks suffer from the problem of having a minimal range of 36". This means that in order to shoot your opponent you have to fire directly, something that an AV 12/10/10 open topped tank should never ever be doing. Leman Russ tanks are far better, though still suffer from being slightly over priced.
The best ones are the regular battletanks and the Exterminators though specialists like the Eradicator (a great scout killer) should be considered and as with every IG unit you should outfit them all the same. Do not take Sponsons or Hull Weapon upgrades on any of the Ordnance armed tanks as they will only be able to snapfire at best and are thus next to useless.

The Forward Sentries has been of great use to me - my Veterans get the save of a Space Marine against most stuff

Something I'll be doing eventually is putting my HWT in the WoM gun entrenchment, which is effectively an ADL with Stubborn.
For an ADL, you can GTG when shot at, get a 2+ cover save, and use orders to get them back up. Does Stubborn stop you doing that?

It also allows rerolls on Overwatch for heavy weapons in the entrenchment. It's not much, but a HB team gets 9 rolls. Usually they'd hit 1.5 times, or 2.75 with rerolls.
The rerolls are useless to a mortar team, of course.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys! I for some reason still like the idea of mortars as I'm going to be collecting the Death Korps (dem models though) and it seems really fluffy for them. Ill use them in infantry squads rather than heavy wep teams. But I'll skip out on the heavy bolters as, like you guys said, plenty of them on tanks and such. In terms of anti-air, is it worth taking a Hydra or 2? Or is there a cheaper option? I couldn't really see anything else that was great AA apart from maybe a Valkyrie.

If you like it then take it. Ultimately it is your army, the one that you are going to have to build, paint and play. If you do not enjoy it then what is the point?

This is true haha but all the stuff you just said also makes sense. Vets with the forward sentry doctrine does sound pretty great. Maybe I'll use them with some heavy weps in, in place of the platoons. And the sentinels with all autocannons/ all lascannons sounds pretty great with scout and such, I'm just afraid that the minuscule armour and HP 2 will get them destroyed instantly, being pretty big targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another quick question: are Basilisks good? They seem cool but their armour seems to make them perhaps a worse choice over lemon russes?

Basilisks suffer from the problem of having a minimal range of 36". This means that in order to shoot your opponent you have to fire directly, something that an AV 12/10/10 open topped tank should never ever be doing. Leman Russ tanks are far better, though still suffer from being slightly over priced.
The best ones are the regular battletanks and the Exterminators though specialists like the Eradicator (a great scout killer) should be considered and as with every IG unit you should outfit them all the same. Do not take Sponsons or Hull Weapon upgrades on any of the Ordnance armed tanks as they will only be able to snapfire at best and are thus next to useless.

The Forward Sentries has been of great use to me - my Veterans get the save of a Space Marine against most stuff

I like scout sentinels, with lascannons and hunterkiller missiles they tend to cause one heck of a double take when they outflank (just don't plan on them being around for very long) ultimately the main reason I use them is that I love the model - with our current rules that is the primary motivator for what guard players build and run.

Basilisks can give marines in the open something to think about - you just have to use 50+ infantry as a blocking unit, which is pretty cool in friendly games - for double shenanigans mix in a defence line.

Mortars also have a place, plant them somewhere safe and they will keep it up all game - its not much damage but it always comes through - the Wyvrn is still better though.

We still need a new codex though, our current one is a bit underpowered these days.