Lt.Soundwave wrote:As stated, context my friend. You choose to ignore it

quiestdeus wrote:-Lt. S

I do not think you realize this but you are agreeing with us.

Edit - at least everything you said about the usage of "only". All of my previous points and description still stand to refute the beginning of your post about always being in base contact.

You agree. Your very own example points out that "The committee can make its decision by Friday of next week only if it receives a copy of the latest report" does NOT mean the committee is always making a decision by every Friday, every week. A condition on the statement follows, and thus the statement MUST be read to include said condition. Models are NOT always in base contact with each other, they are only not in contact with any other model.

Do you disagree with your own chosen reference? Otherwise you agree with why the models are not always in base to base contact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:

You are fixating on the definition "only" which from your perspective shifts the entire meaning of the other lines.

So lets look at that:


[Middle English, from Old English nlc : n, one; see one + -lc, having the form of; see -ly1.]

Usage Note: When used as an adverb, only should be placed with care to avoid ambiguity. Generally this means having only adjoin the word or words that it limits. Variation in the placement of only can change the meaning of the sentence, as the following examples show: Dictators respect only force; they are not moved by words. Dictators only respect force; they do not worship it. She picked up the receiver only when he entered, not before. She only picked up the receiver when he entered; she didn't dial the number. Though strict grammarians insist that the rule for placement of only should always be followed, there are occasions when placement of only earlier in the sentence seems much more natural, and if the context is sufficiently clear, there is no chance of being misunderstood. In the following example only is placed according to the rule: The committee can make its decision by Friday of next week only if it receives a copy of the latest report. Placement of only earlier in the sentence, immediately after can, would warn the reader that a condition on the statement follows.

As has been stated: "context, is everything."

FURTHERMORE (sorry for the repeated edits) you point out "Generally this means having only adjoin the word or words that it limits."

What word(s) does only adjoin? "base to base contact" and "with each other".

"Contact" and "With". You cannot split up the 2 statements, as I pointed out above, because "only" provides context as to the base to base contact.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." is not the same as:
"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact."
"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be only with each other."

Only modifies the words it is adjoined with, you have to read them with their modifier, models are not always in base contact they are only in base contact with no other models.

If that is still enough, more from your own statement:
"there are occasions when placement of only earlier in the sentence seems much more natural,"
Earlier, not later. That is even more proof of how the sentence must be interpreted.

Moving "only" earlier in the sentence to make it feel more natural, results in: "For the duration of the challenge, only these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other."

Would you still argue that meant the models are ALWAYS in base contact with each other? Or ONLY in base contact with each other? I can see how you can misinterpret "always" from the current verbage, but how can you possibly swap one word for another entirely? If we are completely swapping words what stops English from breaking down into "banana kumquat Jose Canseco"? How do you banana kumquat Jose Canseco a challenge?

quiestdeus wrote:There is no argument that models are in base to base contact at the start of a challenge. Folks are still trying to prove that models are always in base to base contact, which is incorrect.

kambien wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:There is no argument that models are in base to base contact at the start of a challenge. Folks are still trying to prove that models are always in base to base contact, which is incorrect.

If part of the requirement of being in a challenge is being in b2b and you are told , the challenge is still considered to be ongoing ....

EAFChunk wrote:

kambien wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:There is no argument that models are in base to base contact at the start of a challenge. Folks are still trying to prove that models are always in base to base contact, which is incorrect.

If part of the requirement of being in a challenge is being in b2b and you are told , the challenge is still considered to be ongoing ....

considered to be ongoing as in the rules for outside forces still stands, ie. wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either character. Not as in, you stay base to base with a model with zero wounds, which we are told to remove from play

Lt.Soundwave wrote:I'd like to hear cowmonauts take on it, as one of the more vocal points of opposition it seems like he may be shifting position. An important milestone for the debate really. It would only be polite to allow that person time to ponder and reply in a more in depth fashion after they have had some time to consider. Will opinions be swayed? Perhaps, perhaps not. However i feel that due discourse is its own reward regardless of outcome.

Greg_Hager wrote:I wholeheartedly believe you are reading to much interpretation into it, and can't see what the words actually say because you want it to say something that it doesn't.

"Are considered to be in base to base contact until the end of the phase."

If the words stated that, then you would have a compelling argument. However they don't. Once you add on "with only each other" it becomes clear that this is only modifying who is in base to base with who, and not arbitrarily making you stay base to base with a slain model.

kambien wrote:why are you only doing part of the requirements - considered to be ongoing as in the rules for outside forces still stands, ie. wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either character - and not everything ?

EAFChunk wrote:

kambien wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:There is no argument that models are in base to base contact at the start of a challenge. Folks are still trying to prove that models are always in base to base contact, which is incorrect.

If part of the requirement of being in a challenge is being in b2b and you are told , the challenge is still considered to be ongoing ....

considered to be ongoing as in the rules for outside forces still stands, ie. wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either character. Not as in, you stay base to base with a model with zero wounds, which we are told to remove from play

Lt.Soundwave wrote:We're at the selectively ignoring portions of an example portion.

quiestdeus wrote:There is no argument that models are in base to base contact at the start of a challenge. Folks are still trying to prove that models are always in base to base contact, which is incorrect.

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:why are you only doing part of the requirements - considered to be ongoing as in the rules for outside forces still stands, ie. wounds from other attackers cannot be allocated against either character - and not everything ?

We are fulfilling all requirements. To be in base to base contact for the entire phase (length of the challenge) is not a requirement. Only NOT being in base to base with anyone other than the other challenger is a requirement. This is the entire argument at this point.

kambien wrote:so according to you i am allowed to be in a challenge and not be in base to base contact because i don't feel like it , as long as i'm not in b2b with anyone else

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:so according to you i am allowed to be in a challenge and not be in base to base contact because i don't feel like it , as long as i'm not in b2b with anyone else

Pretty sure you're trolling at this point in time, but I'll bite anyway.

Not at all. You are required to move them into base to base contact, and if that is impossible, just consider them to be in base to base.

kambien wrote:so it is a requirement for the "challenge" . Then when it tells you to consider the challenges as ongoing , why are they no longer in b2b ?

kambien wrote:so it is a requirement for the "challenge" . Then when it tells you to consider the challenges as ongoing , why are they no longer in b2b ?

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:so it is a requirement for the "challenge" . Then when it tells you to consider the challenges as ongoing , why are they no longer in b2b ?

Negative sir. It is a requirement for all close combat, not a special challenge rule. Being in a challenge does not change this. It only changes the fact that you can not be in base to base contact with the other members of the character's squad. Hence why the rule states "considered to be in base to base contact with only each other." When a character is slain, that is how you are not longer in base to base. Not a single place in the rule set does it state you do not follow the basic rules.

kambien wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:so it is a requirement for the "challenge" . Then when it tells you to consider the challenges as ongoing , why are they no longer in b2b ?

Negative sir. It is a requirement for all close combat, not a special challenge rule. Being in a challenge does not change this. It only changes the fact that you can not be in base to base contact with the other members of the character's squad. Hence why the rule states "considered to be in base to base contact with only each other." When a character is slain, that is how you are not longer in base to base. Not a single place in the rule set does it state you do not follow the basic rules.

Sorry a bit lost.
Are you saying that the paragraph of "fighting a challenge" are not special rules for challenges ?

DeathReaper wrote:How about premise #1?

During a Challenge one of the two combatants are moved:

If we can't get them into base contact they are considered to be in base contact for the purposes of the ensuing fight. (True or false?)

If we can get them into base contact then they are in base contact. (True or false?)

Premise #1 So they are, or are considered to be in base contact.

Do we agree with Premise #1?

Premise #2 the Challenge lasts until the end of the phase even if one is slain.

Do we agree with Premise #2?

Premise #3 for the duration of the challenge the Challenger is in base contact only with the Challengee and Vice Versa.

Do we agree with Premise #3?

DeathReaper wrote:If you agree to Premise 3, you will see why they are considered in B2B even if one is slain, since for the duration, the Challenger is in Base contact with the Challengee, and vice versa.

Greg_Hager wrote:And yet, you have not a single point that says they have to remain in base to base contact after a model is slain.

Greg_Hager wrote: Here's a question for you. Let's say we have Orks and Space Marines battling it out, with a challenge ongoing, as well as the squads going at it in close combat. The characters make all save rolls, and therefor the challenge is ongoing until one is slain, correct?

Greg_Hager wrote: Now, the Space Marines squad totally obliterates the Ork squad, killing them all. They fail their moral test and flee combat. Is the Nob still "considered to be base to base" with the Sergeant since the challenge is ongoing until the end of the phase a character is slain in? No. Why?

Greg_Hager wrote:Because of the normal close combat rules. Even though your precious quote you keep making says they have to be in base to base until the end of the phase, no matter if they are physically in base to base or not. Why is it okay for them to be out of base to base in this case when they're both alive and the challenge is still ongoing, but they can't be out of base to base when one is slain?

kambien wrote:If you are required to be in base contact ( fighting a challenge) and then are told to ", the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase" yes you do . it's one of the requirements for a challenge.

kambien wrote:Incorrect. The challenge can go to round two or the unit can break and flee or the challenge goes to round two and glorious intervention is used.

kambien wrote:Useing the challenge ends when one is slain is again a inccorect assumption. "Round two" pg 65 gives more exceptions. Also would this not be "end of phase" at this point ?

kambien wrote:They are allowed to break combat and flee even if there was a challenge. "If both competitors survive a challenge, and neither side fled from the combat , then they continue to fight in the next round of close combat."

Greg_Hager wrote:And yet, you have not a single point that says they have to remain in base to base contact after a model is slain.

kambien wrote:If you are required to be in base contact ( fighting a challenge) and then are told to ", the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase" yes you do . it's one of the requirements for a challenge.

Negative. You are moved into base to base yes to signify the challenge, no where does it say you are to remain in base to base for the duration of the challenge. It states you are considered to be base to base with only each other for the duration of the challenge. IE: you are considered to be in base to base contact with no one else for the duration of the challenge

Greg_Hager wrote:Here's a question for you. Let's say we have Orks and Space Marines battling it out, with a challenge ongoing, as well as the squads going at it in close combat. The characters make all save rolls, and therefor the challenge is ongoing until one is slain, correct?

kambien wrote:Incorrect. The challenge can go to round two or the unit can break and flee or the challenge goes to round two and glorious intervention is used.

Ummm, re-read the challenge rules. Challenge is issued, and accepted. You move the combatants into base to base, or if this is impossible, as close as possible maintaining unit coherency and assume them to be in base to base contact. They're also considered to be base to base with no one else (IE: only with each other). Now, pg 65 'Round Two' states that if they survive the challenge, and neither side fled, they continue to fight in the next round. So, Glorious Intervention CAN be used to swap out your character in the challenge, but it's not necessary therefore does not have to be used. The challenge continues, you do not have the option to break from the challenge just because you want to for whatever reason, or because it is the end of the phase.

Greg_Hager wrote:Now, the Space Marines squad totally obliterates the Ork squad, killing them all. They fail their moral test and flee combat. Is the Nob still "considered to be base to base" with the Sergeant since the challenge is ongoing until the end of the phase a character is slain in[? No. Why?

kambien wrote:Useing the challenge ends when one is slain is again a inccorect assumption. "Round two" pg 65 gives more exceptions. Also would this not be "end of phase" at this point ?

No, it is not an incorrect assumption. It is fact in the rule book. The challenge only ends at the end of a phase when a character in the challenge was slain, or the character's unit flees from combat. If a Sweeping Advance catches the fleeing unit with the special rule of 'And they shall know no fear,' then you have to reissue the challenge.

Greg_Hager wrote:Because of the normal close combat rules. Even though your precious quote you keep making says they have to be in base to base until the end of the phase, no matter if they are physically in base to base or not. Why is it okay for them to be out of base to base in this case when they're both alive and the challenge is still ongoing, but they can't be out of base to base when one is slain?

kambien wrote:They are allowed to break combat and flee even if there was a challenge. "If both competitors survive a challenge, and neither side fled from the combat , then they continue to fight in the next round of close combat."

But isn't that in direct violation of your "they have to be in base to base contact" rule? See my quote from you at the beginning of this post. If you state that once a challenge is issued and accepted, the models are to remain in base to base contact for the entire challenge, how can they not be in base to base contact and flee with their unit? I know they are allowed to break combat and flee because of the basic rules saying so.

Greg_Hager wrote:Much like the basic rules state if at any point, a model's strength, toughness, or wounds are reduced to zero, it is removed from play as a casualty. And you can not be base to base with a model not in play. They also go on to state that once it is removed, to continue allocating unsaved Wounds to the closest model until there are no more Wounds left, or the whole unit has been removed as casualties. Since the rules restrict what models you can be in base to base contact with, not how long you will be in base to base with a model, normal wound allocation must be used.

kambien wrote:I never said the entire challenge , the rules says phase . When does the phase end ?