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 Da Boss wrote:
Do you want to be part of a federal Europe?

For me, this is the primary reason why I am voting leave. I don't hold romantic notions of "Empire", don't hold rabid tendencies when it comes to immigration (my mothers side are wholly Polish immigrants and the arrival of a new wave of Poles 10 years ago saw a boon in the Polish deli's and foods I used to eat We even had relations asking if they could crash for a month or two while they got a job!) and I am not worried about the economy. But federalism scares me. A lot. Federalism is, to me, project fear!

 zedmeister wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Do you want to be part of a federal Europe?

For me, this is the primary reason why I am voting leave. I don't hold romantic notions of "Empire", don't hold rabid tendencies when it comes to immigration (my mothers side are wholly Polish immigrants and the arrival of a new wave of Poles 10 years ago saw a boon in the Polish deli's and foods I used to eat We even had relations asking if they could crash for a month or two while they got a job!) and I am not worried about the economy. But federalism scares me. A lot. Federalism is, to me, project fear!

Federalism has been hidden during this whole debate. Even the exit campaign haven't really drilled down into what the EU really wants. But this makes me wonder if the Exit campaign really thinks they can be part of the EU exercise and still remain independent of a federalised structure. They seem to give that message even though the end game is pretty clearly laid out.

The campaign on both sides is pretty woolly.

For me. I am now voting to leave.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: Pretty fair arguments there. I think that's the real question you guys need to ask - do you want to be part of a federal Europe? Because I believe without federalization the union is doomed anyway.

I think it's a pretty reasonable point to pull out of the Union on personally. I can understand that standpoint.

I'm really quite irritated it's come down to that actually. I was planning on sitting down and working out the pros and cons of staying under the assumption that any serious federalist drive would be kicked into the long grass for the next few decades (in which case, we'd probably get another vote before the done deal).

I suppose I could vote to stay in the hope that if we elect enough negative people to Europe, we can delay things, but that seems somewhat pointless considering the long term.

I don't want to be part of the United States of Europe as it looks to be. The way I see it? If turns into a utopia of lightness and charm in forty years, we can always rejoin later. God only knows that they've shown they'll take any country with a pulse.

So yes, after reading that report, I'm 80% of the way convinced of the 'Vote to Leave' camp.

 Mr. Burning wrote:


The campaign on both sides is pretty woolly.

For me. I am now voting to leave.

Did seeing the Five Presidents Report settle your mind for you?

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Do you want to be part of a federal Europe?

For me, this is the primary reason why I am voting leave. I don't hold romantic notions of "Empire", don't hold rabid tendencies when it comes to immigration (my mothers side are wholly Polish immigrants and the arrival of a new wave of Poles 10 years ago saw a boon in the Polish deli's and foods I used to eat We even had relations asking if they could crash for a month or two while they got a job!) and I am not worried about the economy. But federalism scares me. A lot. Federalism is, to me, project fear!

Federalism has been hidden during this whole debate. Even the exit campaign haven't really drilled down into what the EU really wants. But this makes me wonder if the Exit campaign really thinks they can be part of the EU exercise and still remain independent of a federalised structure. They seem to give that message even though the end game is pretty clearly laid out.

The campaign on both sides is pretty woolly.

For me. I am now voting to leave.

Cameron was attempting to mitigate federalism (for the UK) by his negotiations. The results were usable, so long as the EU doesn't set itself to undermine them. I don't fear Federalism so long as it is optional. Nation states, not just the Uk should be allowed to decide their level of integration into the EU on a case basis. Some nations Belgium in particular will want to jump in with both feet, though in every nation the full range of opinion will be present, others such as the UK want just a trade agreement. A bespoke EU is certainly possible and frankly preferable.

I want in but on our terms. In this I do not believe the UK deserves any special privilege other than that we pay our way and have influence according to that input. If Hungary wants to renegotiate, let them. My problem with Federalism is that to some administrators it is a dogma, and a long term goal. A united Europe controlled by them. Sadly Brussels is full of those fethpots.

Martin Shculz the EU parliament president said that Camerons concessions were entirely reversible if the UK stays. This say to me, 'we are Federalists, we will let you have your referendum and your concessions, but in the end you will be either completely out or completely in, and if you are completely in it means Federalism long term.'
Federalism via the back door Federalism via the front door. The only option is to be a holdout. The thing is the UK can be that. Thatcher showed us now.

Cameron has played his hand as well as he can with regards to Federalism. The Out campaign might seem to be not plugging at this, and that to you may be 'woolly'. Frankly I disagree. Cameron has had his time in the sun, and the concessions were successful. He can point to that and assuage a lot of Federalism worries. Instead focus on immigration for now and leave it a month. It's the EU, cracks will appears, masks will slip and the spectre of Federalism will not be far behind. Then in about four weeks time wind down the immigration debate and focus fully on federalism. This way by the time the referendum hits both issues are solidly in the minds of the electorate.

In politics it doesn't help to say too much at once when speaking to the electorate en masse. Stick to one issue for several weeks and move on, it will have sunk in then, and the voter will remember. Don't try to cover too many issues at once, in fact don't even try to cover two issues at once you will lose the voter, except in a one on one debate where you bring them all to the table. Oddly enough this fits the pattern and still has only one issue for the voter to remember: the tally of points scored between the candidates.
Motto: Talk to the voter as if they were intelligent, but treat them like an idiot and they wont disappoint you on ballot day.

The out campaign may not be as haphazard as it appears, though there is some infighting which doesnt help. Overall their electoral politics 101 looks good.

 Orlanth wrote:


I want in but on our terms. In this I do not believe the UK deserves any special privilege other than that we pay our way and have influence according to that input. .......

But you don't have that option......yet, only an OUT vote will deliver any change.

As it stands;

IN for some weaselly words form all parties then more of the same.

OUT for none of that Federal nonsense and a kick in the arse to the EU that their form of politics is not tolerable.

I don't see the EU pack doing anything other than scaremongering and threats. I saw the German Economy Minister was at it over the weekend spelling doom to the UK and thereby the EU because;

A) German threats always play well in the UK.

B) The EU economy worsening is something new.

There is so little on the table on the IN side that it makes the unknown look positively eden-like.

Roll on June.

No disrespect to other people on this thread, but the revelation that the ultimate goal of the EU is a united states of Europe, is hardly a newsflash!

What next? Pope Catholic? Grass green?

I've been taking a keen interest in the political side of Europe since the 90s, and the end game was just as plain then as it is now...

Given that Europe's long history has been plagued by nationalist movements, you would think that the last thing that Europe's elites would do was push for a federal Europe, but here we are...

The EU will rue the day it underestimated nationalism, because any push to a federal structure will unleash forces that may spiral out of control...

We already see a political system in the Western World where people are bitter and disengaged because they feel powerless to influence a political system that is increasingly detached from them.

Taking more power away from people, will ironically, cause the very trouble that a federal Europe is seeking to avoid.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
No disrespect to other people on this thread, but the revelation that the ultimate goal of the EU is a united states of Europe, is hardly a newsflash!

It's more the plain, blunt declaration. The Treaty of Rome never intended federalisation, and the Lisbon treaty amendment was more or less a single word alteration (which could be ignored as appropriate). This Five Presidents agreement goes far beyond that. It lays out, in clear and simple terminology, exactly what five of the main EU political players (possibly THE five) intend to push for. Before, it's always been very specific about the end result (an EU superstate), but very vague about how to get there. Now? There's a timeline. Whilst I doubt it'll go entirely according to plan (there will be kickback, and haggling and retreats), the step by step guide towards the United States of Europe is very clearly laid out for the next five years. That's what's been missing up until now. The specifics.

We all knew the United States of Europe was the end goal. I always envisioned as something of a painful process over the next forty to fifty years though. Following the sort of timescale they're working to, they're after it within ten to fifteen years. Which means it'll probably be twenty to twenty five, but the stage at which we can pull out effectively has been reduced to the next ten year timespan. And we won't get another referendum within the next ten years (whereas we probably would have done in twenty).

So really, in my mind? It's probably now or never. I hope that explains why this is a bigger revelation to me then the one word amendment to the Lisbon treaty.

 Ketara wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:


The campaign on both sides is pretty woolly.

For me. I am now voting to leave.

Did seeing the Five Presidents Report settle your mind for you?

Yes, insomuch as it just reminded me of the ultimate goals of the EU bureaucracy. Something which this current campaign ignores - on both sides. It's easy to be lulled into a false sense of what this referendum is actually about.

interestingly, my post explaining why i intend to abstain was deleted as inappropriate.

can anyone explain why, as the message from the mods didn't say.

are you afraid you might catch communism if it isn't actively suppressed?

 daddyorchips wrote:
interestingly, my post explaining why i intend to abstain was deleted as inappropriate.

can anyone explain why, as the message from the mods didn't say.

are you afraid you might catch communism if it isn't actively suppressed?

Ask the mods.

 daddyorchips wrote:
interestingly, my post explaining why i intend to abstain was deleted as inappropriate.

can anyone explain why, as the message from the mods didn't say.

are you afraid you might catch communism if it isn't actively suppressed?

I believe it was because it didn't entirely rate as PG-13. We're quite family friendly here.

I believe that many of the problems currently facing the world are based in Nationalism. It encourages the division of the world into various "us and them" blocs. So yeah, I want to see the breaking down of nation states and the construction of a more egalitarian and transparent federal Europe. I would never state anything else and am not trying to "sneak federalization" in, but it is a major political goal of mine.

I think it's fine if people don't want it, but then I would like them to leave the project because I believe that a multi-speed Europe is doomed to failure.

I do agree that a fierce and fast battle within the EU is needed to better democratize the structures and make things more transparent for all of us. There are movements within Europe for this and I am a fervent supporter. I'm going to attend anti-TTIP rallies for example.

I guess this is the reason for my deep frustration with Cameron and I guess the UK. He had a chance to bring in real reform that people are crying out for, and he could have helped the entire European project. Instead he fiddled around the edges with some populist crap designed to appease a narrow base in his own country. I mistrust his aims and his methods in this entire thing.

I am hoping a shocking vote from the UK will do something to shake our leaders out of their smug complacency with regards to the need for democratic and transparency reform in the EU. Otherwise they will be remembered as the leaders who allowed the most important political achievement in the history of the continent to fall apart.

That's what's been missing up until now. The specifics.

You and I have had many historical discussions these past months on dakka, and you know as well as I do, that in the history of the world, every government and every bureaucracy that has ever been, has always looked to expand, to take more power.

No matter their intentions, for good or for evil, governments and bureaucracies just can't help themselves. They take take take.

Look at the UK. We enter a loose trading block in the 1970s (EEC) and here we are years later talking about a European superstate.

Any student of history will not be surprised at these moves from the EU, hence why I stick to my original point of a European Superstate not being a newsflash to me.

Tony Benn was predicting this back in the 1970s!



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 Da Boss wrote:
I believe that many of the problems currently facing the world are based in Nationalism. It encourages the division of the world into various "us and them" blocs. So yeah, I want to see the breaking down of nation states and the construction of a more egalitarian and transparent federal Europe. I would never state anything else and am not trying to "sneak federalization" in, but it is a major political goal of mine.

I think it's fine if people don't want it, but then I would like them to leave the project because I believe that a multi-speed Europe is doomed to failure.

I do agree that a fierce and fast battle within the EU is needed to better democratize the structures and make things more transparent for all of us. There are movements within Europe for this and I am a fervent supporter. I'm going to attend anti-TTIP rallies for example.

I guess this is the reason for my deep frustration with Cameron and I guess the UK. He had a chance to bring in real reform that people are crying out for, and he could have helped the entire European project. Instead he fiddled around the edges with some populist crap designed to appease a narrow base in his own country. I mistrust his aims and his methods in this entire thing.

I am hoping a shocking vote from the UK will do something to shake our leaders out of their smug complacency with regards to the need for democratic and transparency reform in the EU. Otherwise they will be remembered as the leaders who allowed the most important political achievement in the history of the continent to fall apart.

I may not agree with you, but at least you've been honest about your goals, and I respect that.

Hmm, it's certainly food for thought. Whilst I'm in favour of federalisation of the UK, I'm not quite ready to sign up to a federal union within the EU just yet. I think that would be a very hard sell to the majority of the population of Britain.

It would be very hard to make many British people come around to the idea of joining a federal Europe. There is a reason we have a channel between us and the continent.

 r_squared wrote:
Hmm, it's certainly food for thought. Whilst I'm in favour of federalisation of the UK, I'm not quite ready to sign up to a federal union within the EU just yet. I think that would be a very hard sell to the majority of the population of Britain.

Federalisation of the UK is a non-starter when one of its constituent parts is 85% of the population, and given England's reluctance to divide into regions for this purpose, the idea will remain as dead as the chicken in this tikka masala ready meal that lies before me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
It would be very hard to make many British people come around to the idea of joining a federal Europe. There is a reason we have a channel between us and the continent.

Politicians can't even sell the British public a federal Britain, never mind a federal Europe!

I'm still waiting for the House of Lords to be scrapped and a written constitution drawn up, despite the Liberals promising it since the 1910s, so good luck with a federal Britain. The pace of change in this country is ridiculous.

ooooh I love TIkka Massalas. I prefer lamb though.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
ooooh I love TIkka Massalas. I prefer lamb though.

Same here, but when a special offer is on, I grab as many as I can!

 r_squared wrote:
Hmm, it's certainly food for thought. Whilst I'm in favour of federalisation of the UK, I'm not quite ready to sign up to a federal union within the EU just yet. I think that would be a very hard sell to the majority of the population of Britain.

Who says the Government will bother to consult us? They didn't consult us on the EU Constitution, and that is the treaty that laid the foundations for European federalization. EU Federalization began years ago.

Disregarding the human rights part, which is obviously the ECHR and not the EU:

I doubt we'll ever have a written constitution, there are hundreds of years of laws to be condensed and put together. It would take years of hard work and MPs can even do a few weeks without a holiday.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Disregarding the human rights part, which is obviously the ECHR and not the EU:

In all seriousness. This is why my history tutors hated historical comedies because people would start viewing them as fact......

If the UK falls, Cameron will be booted out and Boris Johnson, a man entirely unburdened by principles, will be PM.

Scotland will leave the Union, which will mean permanent conservative government in the UK.

One little indicator of what will happen: At the moment the EU is pressurising the UK to lower NO2 levels in London. Boris has attempted to postpone the reduction. His only action to reduce levels has been to spray water around the monitoring sites to try and influence the results.

It's estimated that over 9,000 deaths a year in London are caused by NO2 pollution. Leaving the EU will mean this won't fall. This "imposition" by Brussels is the kind of thing Johnson wants freedom from.

So we're debating in our household whether, in the case of Brexit, we should leave London for Berlin or for Edinburgh.

Looks like Spain is joining France in rattling sabres

 zedmeister wrote:
Looks like Spain is joining France in rattling sabres

They're threatening war??

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
If the UK falls, Cameron will be booted out and Boris Johnson, a man entirely unburdened by principles, will be PM.

Scotland will leave the Union, which will mean permanent conservative government in the UK.

One little indicator of what will happen: At the moment the EU is pressurising the UK to lower NO2 levels in London. Boris has attempted to postpone the reduction. His only action to reduce levels has been to spray water around the monitoring sites to try and influence the results.

It's estimated that over 9,000 deaths a year in London are caused by NO2 pollution. Leaving the EU will mean this won't fall. This "imposition" by Brussels is the kind of thing Johnson wants freedom from.

So we're debating in our household whether, in the case of Brexit, we should leave London for Berlin or for Edinburgh.

Well according to the last figures released by the EEA edinburgh is you rbest bet with one green dot of NO2 whilst Berlin has loads of dots including mean dark red ones...which are bad...And I cant find anything relating to German approaches to combating NO2 and other pollutants. Wonder if any german Dakkites can shed some light on the matter.

The car lobby is extremely powerful in Germany. I'd be surprised as hell if they weren't much worse than the UK in this regard.

 Da Boss wrote:
The car lobby is extremely powerful in Germany. I'd be surprised as hell if they weren't much worse than the UK in this regard.

As if the UK actually produces its own cars..... Seriously, we have barely any British brands these days.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
Looks like Spain is joining France in rattling sabres

They're threatening war??

"The rock on the southern tip of the Iberian Peninsula has been British since 1704, although Spain still claims sovereignty over it."

Huh. I had no idea. We can free a nation, but Spain can't free a damn rock? Must have been siesta time, or something.

I thought Prudential Insurance Company owned it, anyway.

Of course, the irony with that, which a great many people don't know, is that Spain has a couple of places in North Africa too.

 Compel wrote:
Of course, the irony with that, which a great many people don't know, is that Spain has a couple of places in North Africa too.

Which Spain pretends aren't really colonies.