Space Marine nerf discussion thread.

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**Ishagu**

Kroot are cheap. The reason why you only see static Tau is because they can perform well in ITC with minimal movement.

**Martel732**

They perform well in CA, too. Shoot a section of board to death then capture objective with no opposition. You really need to play vs some good Tau lists. Because I don't think you are or you would have seen this.

**Galas**

Kroot are very good for their cost but Firecastes are soo good.

But people will end up being surprised to what kroots can do for 4ppm. S4 shooting and meele is nothing to ignore.

**Sentineil**

catbarf wrote:
Sentineil wrote:
If an army specialises in shooting, close combat units come at a premium, and if an army specialises in close combat, shooty units come at a premium.

I remember this design mentality was specifically called out as an example of what not to do in a game design class I took in college. When you make, say, Tau pay a premium for melee, what happens is that they lean harder into shooting and don't bother wasting points on melee to begin with. That's why the Tau lists you see nowadays are all Riptides, no Kroot.

A properly-balanced game defines an army as shooting-oriented or melee-oriented through design, not by artificially skewing the balance. Case in point, Bullgryns are fairly costed as melee units, but they still exist in an army otherwise specialized into shooting by how much of its roster is devoted entirely to shooting units, how many of its buffs apply to shooting, and how many necessary niches (eg anti-tank and especially anti-Knight) are only fulfilled by shooting. You could, theoretically, use lots of Bullgryns and Catachan traits to make a more melee-oriented AM army, but even the basic infantry are ranged-specialized, and your limited roster means you'd be fighting an uphill battle.

There is no reason you can't directly compare units across armies, as long as you're taking relevant supporting factors (like access to psychic support or stratagems) into account.

I understand where you're coming from, but that's just not how 40k is structured, and expecting parity between two units in two different armies with entirely different play styles just isn't going to work.

Using Bullgryns as you brought them up, we see this demonstrated. Like a lot of IG players, I usually have a squad of 5 with mauls in my lists because they fill a role we don't have anything else for.

They're 42 points a model with a maul. For 35 points I could have a grey knight terminator with a halberd, who has higher AP, better save, a ranged weapon, deep strike, smite, and better leadership. Comparable points of GK terminators will outclass Bullgryns all day.

For a few points more I could have Custodes, who are better again. Bullgryns are balanced for the guard, and work well for their role, but they wouldn't feature at all in other Imperium lists, nor would I expect them to.

Orgyns unfortunately are just crap, and don't work anywhere.

Within IG though, I don't feel like Bullgryns are too expensive for what they give to the army.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Grey Knight Terminators have the same 2+ save as Bullgryn and have fewer wounds, toughness and attacks, with worse strength, with d3 instead of a flat 2. Bullgryns are much better melee units than Grey Knight Terminators.

**Ishagu**

Martel732 wrote:
They perform well in CA, too. Shoot a section of board to death then capture objective with no opposition. You really need to play vs some good Tau lists. Because I don't think you are or you would have seen this.

They don't, actually. Take a look at the GW results.

**Sentineil**

GK have the same 2+ save, but have 5++ invun along side it. Bullgryn have a choice between the 2+ or a 4++.

GK also have better AP, and shock assault is better than avalanche of muscle.

I've just always found my Bullgryns are difficult to remove, but very rarely do anything effective in combat.

**Slayer-Fan123**

LOL are we having people defend a 5++ on a 2+ model now? Unbelievable. Also you can take just 1 4++ model to tank the wounds for Bullgryns if necessary.

**Martel732**

Ishagu wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They perform well in CA, too. Shoot a section of board to death then capture objective with no opposition. You really need to play vs some good Tau lists. Because I don't think you are or you would have seen this.

They don't, actually. Take a look at the GW results.

Link?

**Gadzilla666**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL are we having people defend a 5++ on a 2+ model now? Unbelievable. Also you can take just 1 4++ model to tank the wounds for Bullgryns if necessary.

Gw should drop the 5++ for terminators. Give them reroll 1s to save instead. Make them super durable to small arms so you need ap to take them out.

**AnomanderRake**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL are we having people defend a 5++ on a 2+ model now? Unbelievable. Also you can take just 1 4++ model to tank the wounds for Bullgryns if necessary.

Gw should drop the 5++ for terminators. Give them reroll 1s to save instead. Make them super durable to small arms so you need ap to take them out.

So...do nothing about the weapons that already kill Terminators so efficiently there's no point in using them (high-volume -1 AP shots)?

**Gadzilla666**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL are we having people defend a 5++ on a 2+ model now? Unbelievable. Also you can take just 1 4++ model to tank the wounds for Bullgryns if necessary.

Gw should drop the 5++ for terminators. Give them reroll 1s to save instead. Make them super durable to small arms so you need ap to take them out.

So...do nothing about the weapons that already kill Terminators so efficiently there's no point in using them (high-volume -1 AP shots)?

Rerolling 1s to save would help with that but if that's the main concern then you could instead give them a rule to ignore the first -1 or -2 ap. The problem is paying for a 5++ on a model with a 2+ save is almost always a waste. How much -4ap fire is being used on terminators?

**Sentineil**

Hellblasters? And most plasma in SM lists once the tac doctrine is in effect.

**Gadzilla666**

Sentineil wrote:
Hellblasters? And most plasma in SM lists once the tac doctrine is in effect.

But that means paying for an ability that is generally only useful against a specific unit in a specific faction when facing other factions.

**Insectum7**

I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

**Gadzilla666**

Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

**Eadartri**

What did you expect after SFTS nerf?

**AnomanderRake**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

Possibly also that GW chronically overcharges for powerfists/doesn't bother giving loyalists the option for a power sword because the bits aren't in the kit.

**BrianDavion**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

Possibly also that GW chronically overcharges for powerfists/doesn't bother giving loyalists the option for a power sword because the bits aren't in the kit.

what if you fixed terminators by giving them a 4++ invul save and have storm shields give a 5++ invul or a improvement of +1 to the present invul save if the unit already has an invul save?

this would buff non assault terminators, termy HQs that didn't have a iron Halo, I think it'd result in nerf to death watch vets, do people still favor taking them with storm bolters and storm sheilds?

**Karol**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

GK termintors are troops. Although they also cost more.

**Gadzilla666**

BrianDavion wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

Possibly also that GW chronically overcharges for powerfists/doesn't bother giving loyalists the option for a power sword because the bits aren't in the kit.

what if you fixed terminators by giving them a 4++ invul save and have storm shields give a 5++ invul or a improvement of +1 to the present invul save if the unit already has an invul save?

this would buff non assault terminators, termy HQs that didn't have a iron Halo, I think it'd result in nerf to death watch vets, do people still favor taking them with storm bolters and storm sheilds?

That would still mean they die more to massed ap-1 or ap dash weapons. Shouldn't they tank the small stuff and die to the big stuff?

**Karol**

lore wise they should be able to tank all stuff. And be practicaly immune to plasma considering the suits orgin.

**Gadzilla666**

Karol wrote:
lore wise they should be able to tank all stuff. And be practicaly immune to plasma considering the suits orgin.

All lore can't be represented 100% in the game. Unless you want all marines to be ih pre nerf of course.

**Karol**

Galas wrote:
Kroot are very good for their cost but Firecastes are soo good.

But people will end up being surprised to what kroots can do for 4ppm. S4 shooting and meele is nothing to ignore.

why do you need melee when most stuff run by other armies doesn't reach it, and in a strickt gunline vs gunline natch up , it means you wasted points?

All lore can't be represented 100% in the game. Unless you want all marines to be ih pre nerf of course.

as long as my are, I care little about what happens to other armies,

**harlokin**

Karol wrote:

All lore can't be represented 100% in the game. Unless you want all marines to be ih pre nerf of course.

as long as my are, I care little about what happens to other armies,

Wow, what a helpful and pleasant attitude.

**Slayer-Fan123**

harlokin wrote:
Karol wrote:

All lore can't be represented 100% in the game. Unless you want all marines to be ih pre nerf of course.

as long as my are, I care little about what happens to other armies,

Wow, what a helpful and pleasant attitude.

Karol isn't incorrect though in a certain aspect. People that play haphazardly with no regard to actual balance don't care care about said balance because they play around their fluff, which is an arbitrary decision they made for themselves.

**Melissia**

It's kinda irrelevant that we can't get perfect balance, because perfection is something to aspire to, not something that is ever actually possible.

**ccs**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure how much Terminators "pay" for that 5+ anyways. Can't be much if anything.

Actually, this gets goofy. How much more is a Terminator over an Intercessor, and what do they get for it? +1 save, +1 Ld, Deep Strike and a 5++? 4 points? Can't recall atm.

6 17ppm for intercessors vs 23ppm without wargear for terminators. Which puts the cheapest choice for heretic terminators, which are cheaper than loyalists because of more options, at 26ppm. So actually 9

But you leave out that intercessors are troops, very good ones at that, and thus fill troops slots. Almost every army needs troops. Elites, not so much. And terminators have a lot of competition for those elite slots, especially in loyalist armies.

Possibly also that GW chronically overcharges for powerfists/doesn't bother giving loyalists the option for a power sword because the bits aren't in the kit.

what if you fixed terminators by giving them a 4++ invul save and have storm shields give a 5++ invul or a improvement of +1 to the present invul save if the unit already has an invul save?

this would buff non assault terminators, termy HQs that didn't have a iron Halo, I think it'd result in nerf to death watch vets, do people still favor taking them with storm bolters and storm sheilds?

That would still mean they die more to massed ap-1 or ap dash weapons. Shouldn't they tank the small stuff and die to the big stuff?

Blah blah blah.... They've been dying to massed fire from small stuff ever since the RT days.
It's simple. As long as the To-Wound chart says str.x could wound, you pump enough dice of at least that x into the target. Eventually the guy rolling the saves will roll a few/enough 1s....

**AlmightyWalrus**

Switch the 5+ Invulnerable save to a 5+ Feel No Pain save (changing Blightlord Terminators and the like to a 4+ Feel No Pain). Weak invulnerable saves on units with great armour are pretty pointless in 8th edition.

**Blood Hawk**

Terminators should have 1+ armor and 5+ FNP against mortal wounds IMO.