Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Having been in a mortar platoon back in my army days, I am very disappointed with the effectiveness of the IG mortar. So, I propose the following changes.

Mortar section - 75 points

Unit size - 3 mortar teams and 1 forward observer.

Mortar - range 48", S6, AP4, Heavy 1, large blast, barrage, shred, designated targets, air-burst

Forward observer - the forward observer is the eyes of the mortar section, relaying coordinates and fire orders to the mortar section. The forward observer must join a friendly unit with the infantry unit type chosen from Codex: Astra Militarum. Whilst he is alive, he may designate a target for the mortar section. The target must be in his line of sight but does not need to be in line of sight of the mortar section and can be a separate target to the unit he has joined. The mortar section may re-roll the scatter dice when firing on this target and may reduce the scatter distance by the forward observer's BS.

Designated targets - before the battle, the mortar section "zero-in" on pre-selected targets to make it easier to engage enemy units in the area. After both armies have been set-up but before the first turn, the mortar section's controlling player may designate up to three pieces of terrain within range and line of sight of the mortar section. He must write these targets down on a piece of paper so his opponent doesn't know which, if any, pieces of terrain have been designated. When the mortar section fires on an enemy unit within three inches of a designated piece of terrain, you may re-roll the scatter dice.

Air-burst - the mortar teams have the option of switching their ammunition to "air-burst" mode to better engage enemy units in cover. Before the mortar section fires, you may choose to use air-burst ammunition with the following profile - range 48", S5, AP5, Heavy 1, large blast, barrage, shred, ignores cover. When fired into terrain with multiple levels, such as a ruin, it will hit models on the targeted level and models on the floor below, whether friendly or enemy*. This ammunition type may also be fired using the designated targets special rule(see above).

*I'm not too sure about this bit

So, what do you think? I think this will make mortars useful, worth taking and a bit more interesting.

Comment and criticism welcome.

 edbradders wrote:
Having been in a mortar platoon back in my army days, I am very disappointed with the effectiveness of the IG mortar. So, I propose the following changes.

Mortar section - 75 points

Unit size - 3 mortar teams and 1 forward observer.

Mortar - range 48", S6, AP4, Heavy 1, large blast, barrage, shred, designated targets, air-burst

Forward observer - the forward observer is the eyes of the mortar section, relaying coordinates and fire orders to the mortar section. The forward observer must join a friendly unit with the infantry unit type chosen from Codex: Astra Militarum. Whilst he is alive, he may designate a target for the mortar section. The target must be in his line of sight but does not need to be in line of sight of the mortar section and can be a separate target to the unit he has joined. The mortar section may re-roll the scatter dice when firing on this target and may reduce the scatter distance by the forward observer's BS.

Designated targets - before the battle, the mortar section "zero-in" on pre-selected targets to make it easier to engage enemy units in the area. After both armies have been set-up but before the first turn, the mortar section's controlling player may designate up to three pieces of terrain within range and line of sight of the mortar section. He must write these targets down on a piece of paper so his opponent doesn't know which, if any, pieces of terrain have been designated. When the mortar section fires on an enemy unit within three inches of a designated piece of terrain, you may re-roll the scatter dice.

Air-burst - the mortar teams have the option of switching their ammunition to "air-burst" mode to better engage enemy units in cover. Before the mortar section fires, you may choose to use air-burst ammunition with the following profile - range 48", S5, AP5, Heavy 1, large blast, barrage, shred, ignores cover. When fired into terrain with multiple levels, such as a ruin, it will hit models on the targeted level and models on the floor below, whether friendly or enemy*. This ammunition type may also be fired using the designated targets special rule(see above).

*I'm not too sure about this bit

So, what do you think? I think this will make mortars useful, worth taking and a bit more interesting.

Comment and criticism welcome.

Compare your unit to the wyvern which is considered one of the best and likely undercosted units in the AM book and you will quickly realize you created something even more powerful.
The wyvern is 75 pts for a str4 ap6 with 4 small blasts with reroll hit and wound and ignore cover.
Compared to your 75 pts for str5 ap5 with 3 large blasts (covers more area and stronger) with reroll to hit and wound and ignores cover. You even gave your unit he option for a stronger hit str6 ap4 by losing ignore cover. Being barrage also makes it an effective antitank unit as well. It's a bit to much overall.

Being a 5 pt hvy weapon Mortars just need a little help such as reliable orders. Some of the other roles your mentioning can be covered by the various artillery from forgrworld such as the hvy mortar or medusa or collosus, etc. if you really like mortars I suggest looking up those units

Agreed with the above comments regarding its similarity to the Wyvern. For a 5 point upgrade maybe they just need a useful boost like the Forward Observer rule implemented across the army, but without the need for a special model (which gets annoying if a squad buys a single one).

For example, how about letting any officer immediately count as a forward observer for all mortars in the army? Or any vox-linked unit? Or the sergeant of their own unit, so the mortar team can always be out of sight? Or a salamander/command tank?

Agree with the above regarding forward observer being tied to vox unit. That upgrade needs more use and synergy.
I'd also love to see orders enhanced. IMHO orders should be rolled on the leadership of the person giving the orders not the person receiving it. This will help hwts and artillery platforms tremendously.

gungo wrote:
Agree with the above regarding forward observer being tied to vox unit. That upgrade needs more use and synergy.

Coming in from the other thread, two ideas for the Vox and one change for Mortars/Artillery,

- You may reroll Scatter anywhere within 24" of a unit possessing a Vox.
- Units possessing a Vox may call in fire on their own position when Falling Back from combat. Resolve this using the Interceptor rule and add 2 to your Initiative when calculating Sweeping Advance.
- Drop Shred from the Wyvern, and instead let any AM/IG mortar or artillery blast which hits a target without scatter gain Shred.

The two goals here are encouraging observers with Vox forward, and driving home the synergy between observers and the guns. I do like the "Designated Target" rule though -- it would be good as a Formation bonus.

To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

All valid points.

I guess dropping it from large blast to small blast and increasing the points a bit would make it more reasonable? Also incorporating the vox network so any CCS or PCS with a vox can use the forward observer rule and extending it to include artillery?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

Er...that's a very misinformed opinion. The recent Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment update is an example of that. You are forced to pay an extra 20 points per squad of guardsmen for WS4, immune to fear (woo?) and the ability to not take morale tests for 25% casualties from shooting. Not bad at first but then you realize that they can't blob up to take advantage of these buffs, and both WS4 and immunity to fear are largely limited given that guardsmen generally crumple in close combat anyways (especially when you're stuck as 10 man squads). You have no veteran equivalent to spam special weapons in your troops slot and even your grenadiers are stuck with only 2 special weapons per squad and lack the mobility of scions due to lack of deep strike/taurox primes. Your warlord traits are pretty meh and situational especially when compared to the normal IG warlord traits and the only area where they stand out is (fittingly) their artillery which is again fairly tame given that all you need to do is get stuck in and their T7 becomes T3 and easily swept in cc (death korps oddly enough lack a good source of meatshields, no conscripts + priest combo for them). Their rough riders are one of the few things they really outdo the main IG codex but in a world full of S6-7 spam, even they aren't that spectacular.

I would really suggest you do your research before making a blanket statement on how FW is OP. If anything it brings a plethora of fluffy options that GW is too lazy to be bothered into creating or expanding into.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

K well, I'll just stop talking to you.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

I guess that Leman Russ that can take a single TL-Lascannon as a turret weapon is broken OP compared to scatter bikes and Decurion. All hail the Leman Russ Annihilator!

Preach it brotah. Centaur transport vehicle most OP vehicle of the century

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

Yeah that's on the agenda too!

Aside from rerolling scatter within 24" of a friendly Vox, and gaining Shred upon the event of a direct hit, what more do we really need? On smaller tables, rerolling scatter will do a lot to mitigate firing within that 36" minimum distance, and much you're more likely to have an Vox unit nearby. Losing the Shred bonus won't hurt nearly as much at S9, and Ordnance functions as normal. So basically, if you thnk AV12/10/10 is fine, all that's left is adjusting costing.

More importantly you also need to balance the entire IG artillery line against each other to endure one unit isn't both redundant and better, thereby making the other obsolete. Internal balance and all that.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

Er...that's a very misinformed opinion. The recent Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment update is an example of that. You are forced to pay an extra 20 points per squad of guardsmen for WS4, immune to fear (woo?) and the ability to not take morale tests for 25% casualties from shooting. Not bad at first but then you realize that they can't blob up to take advantage of these buffs, and both WS4 and immunity to fear are largely limited given that guardsmen generally crumple in close combat anyways (especially when you're stuck as 10 man squads). You have no veteran equivalent to spam special weapons in your troops slot and even your grenadiers are stuck with only 2 special weapons per squad and lack the mobility of scions due to lack of deep strike/taurox primes. Your warlord traits are pretty meh and situational especially when compared to the normal IG warlord traits and the only area where they stand out is (fittingly) their artillery which is again fairly tame given that all you need to do is get stuck in and their T7 becomes T3 and easily swept in cc (death korps oddly enough lack a good source of meatshields, no conscripts + priest combo for them). Their rough riders are one of the few things they really outdo the main IG codex but in a world full of S6-7 spam, even they aren't that spectacular.

I would really suggest you do your research before making a blanket statement on how FW is OP. If anything it brings a plethora of fluffy options that GW is too lazy to be bothered into creating or expanding into.

OMG i didn't know, let me apologize. 95% of FW is to expensive (Money wise) and OP compared to GW equivalents.

And nobody would ever compare FW to the Ridiculous BS that GW is pushing out recently, I.E. CW Eldar, Necrons, SM. GW just broke the game even further then FW was doing with their massively expensive upgrades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and if you don't think FW is OP then please explain to me why most TO's limit you to bringing 1-2 FW units.

He's too far gone, doctor, there's nothing we can do to save him.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

Er...that's a very misinformed opinion. The recent Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment update is an example of that. You are forced to pay an extra 20 points per squad of guardsmen for WS4, immune to fear (woo?) and the ability to not take morale tests for 25% casualties from shooting. Not bad at first but then you realize that they can't blob up to take advantage of these buffs, and both WS4 and immunity to fear are largely limited given that guardsmen generally crumple in close combat anyways (especially when you're stuck as 10 man squads). You have no veteran equivalent to spam special weapons in your troops slot and even your grenadiers are stuck with only 2 special weapons per squad and lack the mobility of scions due to lack of deep strike/taurox primes. Your warlord traits are pretty meh and situational especially when compared to the normal IG warlord traits and the only area where they stand out is (fittingly) their artillery which is again fairly tame given that all you need to do is get stuck in and their T7 becomes T3 and easily swept in cc (death korps oddly enough lack a good source of meatshields, no conscripts + priest combo for them). Their rough riders are one of the few things they really outdo the main IG codex but in a world full of S6-7 spam, even they aren't that spectacular.

I would really suggest you do your research before making a blanket statement on how FW is OP. If anything it brings a plethora of fluffy options that GW is too lazy to be bothered into creating or expanding into.

OMG i didn't know, let me apologize. 95% of FW is to expensive (Money wise) and OP compared to GW equivalents.

And nobody would ever compare FW to the Ridiculous BS that GW is pushing out recently, I.E. CW Eldar, Necrons, SM. GW just broke the game even further then FW was doing with their massively expensive upgrades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and if you don't think FW is OP then please explain to me why most TO's limit you to bringing 1-2 FW units.

Oh man how can 40k even go on as a functional competitive wargame with cheese like the Malcador with it's limited traverse battlecannon or the stationary Twin-linked heavy bolter turret. Lest we forget the unforgivable cheese like the massively expensive Marauder bomber that we always see at major tournaments or the open topped sentinel with a single multi-melta.

Why do some tournament organizers limit people to 1-2 FW units? Because a lot of gamers are stubborn and hate different. If it were for the sake of balance they'd ban a ton of CWE builds, Decurion and Tzeentch 2++ rerollable too which is far more broken than even the most rank of Forge World cheese.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To hell with mortars, fix the Basilisk artillery piece first

You either have mobile artillery or nothing. Why not make an option to take Earth Shaker Cannons without a vehicle. T7 Sv 3 2 Wounds. I can't remember how strong the gun is but i remember it was large blast .

Forgeworld did, they have 4 wounds and T7, with the possibility to buy more meatshields... errr crewmen.

im a firm hater of FW. more expensive then GW and all the rules are broken OP compared to the rest of the game.

Er...that's a very misinformed opinion. The recent Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiment update is an example of that. You are forced to pay an extra 20 points per squad of guardsmen for WS4, immune to fear (woo?) and the ability to not take morale tests for 25% casualties from shooting. Not bad at first but then you realize that they can't blob up to take advantage of these buffs, and both WS4 and immunity to fear are largely limited given that guardsmen generally crumple in close combat anyways (especially when you're stuck as 10 man squads). You have no veteran equivalent to spam special weapons in your troops slot and even your grenadiers are stuck with only 2 special weapons per squad and lack the mobility of scions due to lack of deep strike/taurox primes. Your warlord traits are pretty meh and situational especially when compared to the normal IG warlord traits and the only area where they stand out is (fittingly) their artillery which is again fairly tame given that all you need to do is get stuck in and their T7 becomes T3 and easily swept in cc (death korps oddly enough lack a good source of meatshields, no conscripts + priest combo for them). Their rough riders are one of the few things they really outdo the main IG codex but in a world full of S6-7 spam, even they aren't that spectacular.

I would really suggest you do your research before making a blanket statement on how FW is OP. If anything it brings a plethora of fluffy options that GW is too lazy to be bothered into creating or expanding into.

OMG i didn't know, let me apologize. 95% of FW is to expensive (Money wise) and OP compared to GW equivalents.

And nobody would ever compare FW to the Ridiculous BS that GW is pushing out recently, I.E. CW Eldar, Necrons, SM. GW just broke the game even further then FW was doing with their massively expensive upgrades.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and if you don't think FW is OP then please explain to me why most TO's limit you to bringing 1-2 FW units.

Oh man how can 40k even go on as a functional competitive wargame with cheese like the Malcador with it's limited traverse battlecannon or the stationary Twin-linked heavy bolter turret. Lest we forget the unforgivable cheese like the massively expensive Marauder bomber that we always see at major tournaments or the open topped sentinel with a single multi-melta.

Why do some tournament organizers limit people to 1-2 FW units? Because a lot of gamers are stubborn and hate different. If it were for the sake of balance they'd ban a ton of CWE builds, Decurion and Tzeentch 2++ rerollable too which is far more broken than even the most rank of Forge World cheese.

But damn man, cant you see just how broken a Super Heavy that costs a mere 350 points and has a massive chance to be immobilised, has weapons mounts of almost useless traverse limitations, armour 13/12/10 and a whopping 2 SP is?

You know, if it where not for the limitations tournaments would be dominated by entire armies of nigh invulnerable 13/12/10 easily immobilised limited fire arc tanks! Those Decurion Formation, Gladius, Windthingy and Skyhammer formations and all that re-rollable 2++ save junk would be blitzed from the table in a single turn!!!

It is worth noting that TOs limit FW to avoid stuff like the FW LatD, Rapier Spam (or FW arty spam in general), the Tau Trolltide, or the various Eldar grav-tank shenanigans. The IG/AM selection of Forge World units has probably the least to do with all this.

Okay.... this thread got OT fast.

Give them split fire, so the mortars can shoot at different targets. An Illumination round that reduces all cover saves by 1 within a 10" radius of the impact point. A smoke round that draws a 9" line with no LOS for one turn through it unless you have acute senses. Rad shells that drop 1 toughness on a hit. Increase the range and make the regular shells heavy 3.

I would take that unit

I don't know if I would recast mortars as a toolbox unit.

Mortars as economic anti-infantry fire support have a solid place in the AM codex, the Wyvern is proof.

Crewed mortars just need recosting and access to some of the Wyvern's special rules to be useful. Survivability is an issue, but this applies to the HWS in general.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I don't know if I would recast mortars as a toolbox unit.

Mortars as economic anti-infantry fire support have a solid place in the AM codex, the Wyvern is proof.

Crewed mortars just need recosting and access to some of the Wyvern's special rules to be useful. Survivability is an issue, but this applies to the Imperial Guard in general.

Fixed that for you

and I will never call them "astra Militarum" they are the bloody Imperial Guard!

Yoyoyo wrote:
I don't know if I would recast mortars as a toolbox unit.

Mortars as economic anti-infantry fire support have a solid place in the AM codex, the Wyvern is proof.

Crewed mortars just need recosting and access to some of the Wyvern's special rules to be useful. Survivability is an issue, but this applies to the HWS in general.

I don't really see the IG needing any more anti-infantry dakka. It's pretty much the only thing in the entire codex that they are good at. That and dying, I guess.

The toolbox mortar lets them get some more buffs/debuffs in without using orders or psykers. I suppose you could have platoon mortars (infantry squad heavy wep) be a regular dakka flinger and the company mortars (heavy weapon squad) have the debuff shells if you wanted to lay it out slightly more like the present day organization.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know-- it seems like you just want another wyvern. But you can already take plenty of wyverns, so i don't really see the point of that. Why make a unit to replicate exactly what a preexisting unit already does? Seems kind of pointless.

 AtoMaki wrote:
It is worth noting that TOs limit FW to avoid stuff like the FW LatD, Rapier Spam (or FW arty spam in general), the Tau Trolltide, or the various Eldar grav-tank shenanigans. The IG/AM selection of Forge World units has probably the least to do with all this.

True (and apologies for the OT) that the IG tanks aren't really the issue. FW Artillery is certainly good, but probably no worse than a lot of Codex things. The Renegades and Heretics army is essentially a horde of BS2 goons, not much different from an Ork/Nid horde - I've rarely heard it described as OP. The Tau suits are still Experimental Rules, so tournaments that DO allow FW (the ITC format for example) often don't allow them, and we should expect them to be toned down before being made official.

I think the reaction on this board was to the first post about FW units all being massive overpowered cheese - which, by the standards of 'regular' 40k - is in no way true. There are certainly some powerful things, but even those are nothing compared to what is in a basic Codex!!