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I don't expect this to be news to anyone who's played this game for more than five seconds but my day was sure wrecked when I lost turn two/three back to back last I played and I had to learn some very valuable lessons. Backstory: I like playing a very assault heavy army (Daemonkin) and made a list of flesh hounds, bikers, berzerkers, possessed, and a big ol bloodthirster. I thought, yeah, this will work out swell.

The first thing I learned from getting shot to by dark eldar was that I should not be putting all my models on the table. I lost, pretty much, everything turn one to gunfire except flesh hounds. So the units that were supposed to be covering my butt were being completely ignored and I ended up with absolutely nothing to show for it. This happened for two reasons actually but I will just say that it was really, really stupid to try and shove my bikers onto the table with everything else. I learned from this that they, as melta bikers, can most likely stay in reserve and still do their jobs later in the game, or they need to be obscured by the flesh hounds to get cover saves.

The second thing I learned was that my bloodthirster (wrath of khorne so heavy flamer and multi-hit whip) rrreeaalllyyy shouldn't start the game on the table. Yes it would be nice to get an assault in turn two or even one with his jump pack wings, but unless I find a tower to hide behind he gets boned. So I learned to keep him in reserve. This is fine because moving him 24 inches onto the table and then having a 12 inch whip range along with a template weapon still makes him viable.

The third thing I learned was that I was pretty much ignoring the my shooting phase. My rhinos has combi-bolters and my berzerks had pistols, whoop de doo. The times I did actually shoot I shot well because marine stats, so there really wasn't any reason why I couldn't kit out the rhinos more for havoc launchers and another combi-bolter and even a combi-weapon. I know most people say rhinos aren't worth kitting out because they blow up too fast, but I also have maulerfiends and a bloodthirster for the enemy to worry about so if they try and take time to remove the rhinos they are letting the other heavy hitters run around free.

The fourth thing was that for the love of god don't scout the flesh hounds. This is going to be somewhat of an unpopular opinion but scouting removes your ability to assault first turn, and if you go second it makes much more sense to let the enemy move closer and have the ability to charge them than to scout and be shot by rapid fire and then have to suffer ANOTHER turn of rapid fire before being able to do anything about it. Maybe if you go first you'll want to scout into cover and then wait for the enemy to come out, or re-position to better cover your bikes or maulers. Basically this whole lesson comes down to DON'T WALK YOU'RE ENTIRE ARMY RIGHT UP TO THE ENEMY STUPID. I did this in BOTH my games and both times everything got wreck-it-ralphed. I'm not saying I'll never scout again but I'll certainly think before I move units too far up again.

Everything just kind of clicked after these last two humiliating defeats. The board is 48 by 72 inches, most normal stuff hits 24 inches, meaning you don't have to move all that far to have a fine firing range. However, really heavy hitting stuff hurts real bad the closer you get, while long range heavy hitters have fewer shots thus more opportunities to miss. Both my opponents said my army was fine I just wasn't playing it right, and I realize now what they meant. I was just serving my army up to them on a silver platter not thinking logically.

Say what you will about how obvious all of this is but IDK, I feel like I'm thinking much more about the board and how my models navigate it than before.

Anyone else learn any interesting lessons while playing?

In my first game I scouted my White Scars command squad with khan straight 12 inches.
Against nids.
Towards a hive tyrant in a giant squad of gribblies.
It did not end well.


Yeah, scout can be a bit*h sometimes, if you let it go to your head.

I learned that my friend who went and bought 3 whirlwinds after I built a mass horm nid army 9 years ago is a $%#$%@# hole. /lesson

IMHO the issue with assault-heavy armies is that they can be quite one-dimensional. There is little tactical scope beyond simply rushing into combat and a clever opponent can work around this (or maybe I'm just rubbish lol).

I found this with my Orks and thus changed my build and tactics. What I do now is drive around shooting things until I've softened the enemy up enough and then charge in to finish them off. I find it works a lot better as it enables me to assault on favourable terms and when the time is right. Also, Ork shooting is better than a lot of casual players realise (e.g. bikers, flash gitz, mek gunz, and of course swarms of shoota boyz) and this tactic can thus catch them off guard.

My mate plays Daemons with CSM allies, which works very well for him as his obliterators really help to plug a gap in his Daemon army with their long-range fire support, Just a suggestion

Daemonkin has plenty of long range firepower in the form of skull cannons, grinders, defiler, forgefiends, rhinos, and now titans. There really is no need to try and incorporate another detachment that can't get blood points anyways.

Reposted for relevance.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

^This is by far the funniest 40k-related thing I have seen all day, if a little outdated. Have an Exalt.

Yeah -scout is fine, if you have a plan for it. Don't just rush ahead, because a 12" move unit could have reached the enemy in a couple of turns anyway.

Move up, but try to avoid giving away free rapid fire bursts....

Supporting stuff is key. Cannons of Khorne, or pinning powers like The Horror, are awesome if they work.

My maxim has always been to only scout the khorne dogs if I am going second and only if I can get into LOS blocking cover. Turn 1 assaults rarely happen but when they do it is awesome! I can get the 1st wave of my army in combat by turn 2.

I have found the opposite with the flying DP or BT. Never go into flying mode, just use the 12" move to keep up with Khorne dogs. If you deploy on the edge of your deployment zone, by the time your turn 2 movement ends, you should be 36" up the board. Unless your opponent deploys on the very edge of the table, you will get a charge by turn 2 with the Khorne dogs and flying MCs.

Going second is always tough when playing an assault army.

And you do actually have to change your tactics if you go first or second. But you always want to hope for going first.

As to the scout rule, I agree with you that scouting can be very very dangerous. I know the extinct is to always push everything forward, but if there is not enough cover, or you are going second, it's only going to end you.
Heck even if you go first it can be your demise. I wiped out an entire ravenwing army when he scouted his whole army forward on turn 1. I move up all my battlewagons filled with boyz and by the end of turn 1 I had essentially secured victory by assaulting.

Terrain is also very important and terrain is your friend. When setting up the board while playing an assault army make sure there are LOS blocking pieces and plenty of places to take cover in.

Quite recently it clicked for me that Invisibility is 2 warp charges, and makes one unit very durable. Shrouding is one warp charge, and in ruins gives every unit within 6" of the caster a 2+ cover save...and no one will try to deny it, because they're saving their dice for the dreaded Invisibility, or Psychic Shriek.

I've also learned that it's pretty important to have enough shooting on your first infiltrate/scout/deepstrike to make your opponent wary of what he/she puts on the table, keeping their big guns off until you're stuck in or risk losing them.

 Dalek Sec wrote:
I have found the opposite with the flying DP or BT. Never go into flying mode, just use the 12" move to keep up with Khorne dogs. If you deploy on the edge of your deployment zone, by the time your turn 2 movement ends, you should be 36" up the board. Unless your opponent deploys on the very edge of the table, you will get a charge by turn 2 with the Khorne dogs and flying MCs.

I'm using the new BT and he's just so freaking big he gets blown away because he can't hide. Makes me really want to shove him in reserve but maybe I just need to place him on the table edge so the enemy has to move forward towards me and into my hounds.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Dalek Sec wrote:
I have found the opposite with the flying DP or BT. Never go into flying mode, just use the 12" move to keep up with Khorne dogs. If you deploy on the edge of your deployment zone, by the time your turn 2 movement ends, you should be 36" up the board. Unless your opponent deploys on the very edge of the table, you will get a charge by turn 2 with the Khorne dogs and flying MCs.

I'm using the new BT and he's just so freaking big he gets blown away because he can't hide. Makes me really want to shove him in reserve but maybe I just need to place him on the table edge so the enemy has to move forward towards me and into my hounds.

Use area terrain. Unless simple weight of fire is doing it, that is. MC rules are very generous with cover.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Dalek Sec wrote:
I have found the opposite with the flying DP or BT. Never go into flying mode, just use the 12" move to keep up with Khorne dogs. If you deploy on the edge of your deployment zone, by the time your turn 2 movement ends, you should be 36" up the board. Unless your opponent deploys on the very edge of the table, you will get a charge by turn 2 with the Khorne dogs and flying MCs.

I'm using the new BT and he's just so freaking big he gets blown away because he can't hide. Makes me really want to shove him in reserve but maybe I just need to place him on the table edge so the enemy has to move forward towards me and into my hounds.

Use area terrain. Unless simple weight of fire is doing it, that is. MC rules are very generous with cover.

Well I think I'm still just shell shocked from being blown away by DE last game. You mean like sticking him in ruins?

 andysonic1 wrote:
Well I think I'm still just shell shocked from being blown away by DE last game. You mean like sticking him in ruins?

For example, the blob-shaped forests GW sells. A vaguely elliptical shape with three trees sticking out. As long as the BT has the tiniest portion of his base within that elliptical shape, he can claim 5+ cover.

Dark Eldar find their sweet spot gunning down fleshy (see: not vehicle) targets at T4+. Swarm them with low-T low-cost or vehicles and they struggle a bit more. MCs are like candy for them.

Dark Eldar have amazing shooting. And all their weapons are poisonous. So all your high toughness monsters get brought down just as easily as anyone else to that shooting. Also they are extremely fast so it can be very hard to catch up with them and assault them.

People tend to say DE are bad compared to other shooty armies, but that's because DE arent as durable to enemy shooting as Eldar and Tau are. What DE lack in shooting durability, they make up for in maneuverability.

So it looks like a case of Paper beating Rock.

I was under the impression that scouting prohibited assault on the first player turn of the game rather than game turn? If you scout and your opponent goes first can you not charge turn 1?

I don't have the rulebook on me but all the information I'm finding confirms that in 6th you could assault after scouting if you went second. Nothing so far if the rule changed in 7th.

Unless an opponent focuses fire, It will be very difficult to kill a BT in 1 turn. If they do, that means the rest of your army is pretty much intact. I've lost a 250 badass but I've still got 450 points of undamaged units who will be charging this turn and the rest of the army charging in late turns.

I have always scouted my flesh hounds into cover for that reason... I really hope I havent been playing this wrong since 7th dropped. I would have a campaign to restart entirely. Haha.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I was under the impression that scouting prohibited assault on the first player turn of the game rather than game turn? If you scout and your opponent goes first can you not charge turn 1?

The second to last last Sentence of the first Paragraph of the Scout USR

"A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. "

 CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I was under the impression that scouting prohibited assault on the first player turn of the game rather than game turn? If you scout and your opponent goes first can you not charge turn 1?

The second to last last Sentence of the first Paragraph of the Scout USR

"A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. "

Oh boy, my brain hurts. Does that mean the first game turn as in the five turns or does it mean the first game turn as in "I'm going first than you" because those are two radically different things that completely change the way you play scouts.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I was under the impression that scouting prohibited assault on the first player turn of the game rather than game turn? If you scout and your opponent goes first can you not charge turn 1?

The second to last last Sentence of the first Paragraph of the Scout USR

"A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. "

Oh boy, my brain hurts. Does that mean the first game turn as in the five turns or does it mean the first game turn as in "I'm going first than you" because those are two radically different things that completely change the way you play scouts.

The rulebook is clear that Game Turn and Player Turn are different (in that a Game Turn is both Player's Turn)

 CrownAxe wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I was under the impression that scouting prohibited assault on the first player turn of the game rather than game turn? If you scout and your opponent goes first can you not charge turn 1?

The second to last last Sentence of the first Paragraph of the Scout USR

"A unit that makes a Scout redeployment cannot charge in the first game turn. "

Oh boy, my brain hurts. Does that mean the first game turn as in the five turns or does it mean the first game turn as in "I'm going first than you" because those are two radically different things that completely change the way you play scouts.

The rulebook is clear that Game Turn and Player Turn are different (in that a Game Turn is both Player's Turn)

Alright thanks, clears that up.

Wow. Thanks alot for that clarification. Looks like some wins i've had in the past were very illegitimate. I shouldnt have assumed it was the same since sixth.

For me this is what I live by.
Rules of scouting:

1. If you can, scout into cover.
2. Never scout closer to a cc army.
3. Never scout long range weapons any close then you need to to be in range.
4. Never scout when outflank will serve you better.

'Suggestions' of scouting
Use this as a movement to confuse your opponent and/or make them come closer to you.
Scouting forward 'distraction/harassment units' is a great way to help your army get into optimal range.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Scouting forward 'distraction/harassment units' is a great way to help your army get into optimal range.

^ this

Khorne dogs are a great distraction unit. They are reasonably tough and hit hard enough so your opponent is worries about them. While he's busy with ~200 points of dogs, the rest of the army is running behind them. Plus you can summon them back if they die.

~200 points? I'm taking 320 points worth in 4x5 units. Am I going overboard? I figured I could use them like a poor mans ADL.

Depends on the list. I usually max at 2x units of 8. I don't like to spam though.

I like mass spam in my Daemonkin list because like you said, they're tough and fast and can be summoned. I also am fine if a few units of them die first turn so everything in my army can get FnP.