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According to the fluff in the Deamonkin book the highest rank in Khornes forces is occupied by the Bloodthirsters. Deamon Princes serve under the command of a Bloodthirster. Angron, while being no mere mortal before his ascention, is technicaly still a Deamon Prince. However, he has lead squads of Bloodthirsters into battle, wich would roughly (based on the current fluff) be equal to a Space Marine Captain commanding a unit made up of Chapter Masters. The question: where does Angron stand in the ranking. Is he above the Greater Deamons of Khorne and if not then how can we explain the fluff for the First War for Armageddon?

Because Khorne said: "You thugs, follow that guy!"

Bloodthirsters said: "Grr. Bark. Bark. Grr." (translation: "You got it, Boss!")

And so they followed him.

I would argue that he is above many blood thirsters but not all. Angron may be a daemon prince but he is still one of khornes most favored champions of all time due to his primarch background and the amount of blood spilled in Armageddon. But I feel like him being mortal tells us that greater deamons look down upon him as a lesser being and not their leader. This would be especially true of higher ranking thirsters.

He is probably more favoured by Khorne than any other servant. Khorne has many Bloodthirsters, they are fully expendable. There is only one Angron however. Being a Deamon Primarch means he is above normal Deamon princes and as the 1st War for Armaggeddon shows, probably even above Bloodthirsters.

 Drogga wrote:
I would argue that he is above many blood thirsters but not all. Angron may be a daemon prince but he is still one of khornes most favored champions of all time due to his primarch background and the amount of blood spilled in Armageddon. But I feel like him being mortal tells us that greater deamons look down upon him as a lesser being and not their leader. This would be especially true of higher ranking thirsters.

Once you attain daemon-prince hood you are essentially immortal. A few Daemon Primarchs have been taken out, but this is essentially "banishment" from the material realm. They are not permanently killed. Angron himself was barely banished on Armegeddon and is slated to come back to the material realm in the coming years according to the big Grey Knight tome that keeps track of these type of things.

Ok, so Angron is ranked prety high. But there is also Doombreed, who, like some may say, is even stronger than Angron, but - still - only a Deamon Prince. Looks kind of funy - two greatest champions of the Blood God are stronger then his Greater Deamons, but technicaly still below them in ranking. It would be interesting to see how it's with the other gods. Would be funny to see Magnus getting pushed around by some Lord of Change.

Khorne certainly would favour Anggrath more than Angron. No? He is like khorne's version of jesus, and The Emprah created Angron.

Well, I can't speak for Khorne, but I'd probably put Angron as part of the 2nd host.

Remember, with Khorne, you are free to fight up the ranks in any way you please. Your title is only as good as you make it. It does not give you special power, and Khorne does not discourage his deamons from trying to raise their stature.

It is impossible to tell with Khorne, because so many of his servants are described as his most favored.

Ka'Bandha:
-"...first amongst Khorne's servants and heir to power and stature easily thrice that of others of his kind."
-"In all the ages of the galaxy, no other creature had taken more skulls for the Blood God or done so more joyfully."

 hordrak wrote:
According to the fluff in the Deamonkin book the highest rank in Khornes forces is occupied by the Bloodthirsters. Deamon Princes serve under the command of a Bloodthirster. Angron, while being no mere mortal before his ascention, is technicaly still a Deamon Prince. However, he has lead squads of Bloodthirsters into battle, wich would roughly (based on the current fluff) be equal to a Space Marine Captain commanding a unit made up of Chapter Masters. The question: where does Angron stand in the ranking. Is he above the Greater Deamons of Khorne and if not then how can we explain the fluff for the First War for Armageddon?

Not all Bloodthirsters are equal - there are actually 8 ranks of Bloodthirsters according to Codex: Khorne Demonkin. There's no reason to think why a Demon Prince belonging to a Bloodthirster of the 1st Host couldn't command-via-proxy over a lesser ranked Bloodthirster of the 3rd Host for example.

I figure that mortal's becoming daemon princes is what gives them more potential to become greater than any regular daemon.

A bloodthrirster is more an extension of Khorne himself, than a unique entity. A daemon prince on the other hand, is a mix of Khorne AND the mortal and so has the potential to bring a lot to the table. All the personality and memories and emotions that made that person who they were. Stuff that makes them more than simple anger daemons (which even bloodthristers are) Most of them fall pretty middleground on the spectrum, but then you get a real gem like a primarch and suddenly you get a being that Khorne alone couldn't possibly create by himself. That sort of combo power is what can rocket a prince far above any normal rank of daemon. The only other thing in khorne's realm with willpower or personality is khorne himself.

Khorne's just sitting around playing with sock puppets, but sometimes he can put a sock over the head of a puppy and it becomes his friend!

In terms of Khorne's "Most Favoured":



At one point it was Skarbrand, until he tried to stab Khorne.
This ended badly for him, he was thrown out and An'Grath created to replace him.

Ka'Bandha/Ann'Grath's interactions aren't known and for all we know they're the same daemon - Ann'Grath's model (you can't really call it a "miniature") is certainly sculpted from artwork meant to be Ka'Bandha

Angron and Doombreed are definitely first amongst the Daemon Princes of Khorne - as noted, I'd suggest they'd probably qualify as first rank - they have the ability to get themselves there and theoretically the rank is open to anyone who can kill there way up to it.

Does Angron still have Gorefather or is he just carrying a daemon weapon?

Angron uses the Black Sword now (or he did until armageddon, the last time anyone saw him in real space, but it then got broken).

He certainly doesn't have gorefather any more, and it'd be a bit puny for him to try and use if he had.

Isn't angron about the same level as Anggrath? They are both Khorne's right hand men and they fight for primacy.

 PhillyT wrote:
Isn't angron about the same level as Anggrath? They are both Khorne's right hand men and they fight for primacy.

That was kind of my point though, depending on which story you're reading there are a lot of Khorne's servants who are described as his most favored. An'ggrath, Ka'Bandha, Angron, and Doombreed have all been labeled as such as far as I know, there may be more. Skarbrand has as well, but only in the context of explaining that he no longer is.

Well, in theory - even fitting them into the Daemonkin hierarcy - there could be eight of them, so the First Rank could quite logically consist of An'ggrath, Ka'Bandha, Angron, Doombreed and four other beings with the same level of power and 'breathtaking anger management issues'.

Ka'Jagga'Nath is a possible one - the Lord of the Bloodtide is a Bloodthirster of sufficient power that even Grey Knights needed to shield themselves with blood sacrifice to avoid being corrupted, so he's got to be pretty high up there.

locarno24 wrote:
Well, in theory - even fitting them into the Daemonkin hierarcy - there could be eight of them, so the First Rank could quite logically consist of An'ggrath, Ka'Bandha, Angron, Doombreed and four other beings with the same level of power and 'breathtaking anger management issues'.

Ka'Jagga'Nath is a possible one - the Lord of the Bloodtide is a Bloodthirster of sufficient power that even Grey Knights needed to shield themselves with blood sacrifice to avoid being corrupted, so he's got to be pretty high up there.

Someone brought the Bloodtide up without making jibes about either Matt Ward or Khornate Grey Knights? I'm shocked.

On-topic; Locarno24 has a very good theory here. Conveniently explains the seeming contradictions without having to try to find different time periods for X to be top dog or just putting down to Games Workshop inconsistency.

locarno24 wrote:
Well, in theory - even fitting them into the Daemonkin hierarcy - there could be eight of them, so the First Rank could quite logically consist of An'ggrath, Ka'Bandha, Angron, Doombreed and four other beings with the same level of power and 'breathtaking anger management issues'.

Ka'Jagga'Nath is a possible one - the Lord of the Bloodtide is a Bloodthirster of sufficient power that even Grey Knights needed to shield themselves with blood sacrifice to avoid being corrupted, so he's got to be pretty high up there.

Which seems to suggest that Grey Knights are not, in fact, incorruptible.

Angron in 30k beats any of the bloodthirsters, easily, haven't tried him against angarath yet though, anyone want to mathhammer that out?

 Formosa wrote:
Angron in 30k beats any of the bloodthirsters, easily, haven't tried him against angarath yet though, anyone want to mathhammer that out?

This is fluff though, not tabletop.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Angron in 30k beats any of the bloodthirsters, easily, haven't tried him against angarath yet though, anyone want to mathhammer that out?

This is fluff though, not tabletop.

Ok so going with all evidence available to us, fluff, angron easily beats any bloodthirster in 30k, this is supported by tt rules, with the notable exception of above.

So going with what we know of the pre deamon angron, post deamon would be even more powerful, when we get his stats we can then see if he is more powerful than the most powerful greater deamon of khorne we have been given stats for, if he is, then we will have a good idea of where he could stand in the hierarchy of the followers of khorne, as might makes right in khornes Kingdom.

But based on what little we know, I'd put him as second to khorne in terms of rank, simply because he can already pants any of the non gargantuan greater deamons with ease, if angron goes gargantuan, then he will likely be top dog, but there isn't much to go on at the moment.

 Formosa wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Angron in 30k beats any of the bloodthirsters, easily, haven't tried him against angarath yet though, anyone want to mathhammer that out?

This is fluff though, not tabletop.

Ok so going with all evidence available to us, fluff, angron easily beats any bloodthirster in 30k, this is supported by tt rules, with the notable exception of above.

So going with what we know of the pre deamon angron, post deamon would be even more powerful, when we get his stats we can then see if he is more powerful than the most powerful greater deamon of khorne we have been given stats for, if he is, then we will have a good idea of where he could stand in the hierarchy of the followers of khorne, as might makes right in khornes Kingdom.

But based on what little we know, I'd put him as second to khorne in terms of rank, simply because he can already pants any of the non gargantuan greater deamons with ease, if angron goes gargantuan, then he will likely be top dog, but there isn't much to go on at the moment.

I partially agree. Great Crusade Angron should be able to beat any bloodthirster, but the daemon primarchs are oddballs on the power scale. Some of them seem to be legitimately weaker than their mortal selves, maybe Angron is one of them.

 Orblivion wrote:
Some of them seem to be legitimately weaker than their mortal selves, maybe Angron is one of them.

Where in the fluff does it indicate that any of the Daemon Primarchs are weaker post-Daemonhood? Because I find that very hard to believe.

 hordrak wrote:
According to the fluff in the Deamonkin book the highest rank in Khornes forces is occupied by the Bloodthirsters. Deamon Princes serve under the command of a Bloodthirster. Angron, while being no mere mortal before his ascention, is technicaly still a Deamon Prince. However, he has lead squads of Bloodthirsters into battle, wich would roughly (based on the current fluff) be equal to a Space Marine Captain commanding a unit made up of Chapter Masters. The question: where does Angron stand in the ranking. Is he above the Greater Deamons of Khorne and if not then how can we explain the fluff for the First War for Armageddon?

So perhaps Angron's 'Blood Thirster bodyguard' isn't a bodyguard at all, but a management committee?

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Some of them seem to be legitimately weaker than their mortal selves, maybe Angron is one of them.

Where in the fluff does it indicate that any of the Daemon Primarchs are weaker post-Daemonhood? Because I find that very hard to believe.

It is never stated to be the case, but some of them have turned in post-ascension performances that were, frankly, pathetic when compared to what they were capable of during the Great Crusade. Case in point, Magnus at the Battle of the Fang. Angron, during the War for Armageddon, had to frequently halt his progress in order to construct shrines to Khorne, otherwise he couldn't maintain his physical form. The mortal primarchs had none of the inherent restrictions of daemonhood.

 dusara217 wrote:

Which seems to suggest that Grey Knights are not, in fact, incorruptible.

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Well, in theory - even fitting them into the Daemonkin hierarcy - there could be eight of them, so the First Rank could quite logically consist of An'ggrath, Ka'Bandha, Angron, Doombreed and four other beings with the same level of power and 'breathtaking anger management issues'.

Ka'Jagga'Nath is a possible one - the Lord of the Bloodtide is a Bloodthirster of sufficient power that even Grey Knights needed to shield themselves with blood sacrifice to avoid being corrupted, so he's got to be pretty high up there.

Which seems to suggest that Grey Knights are not, in fact, incorruptible.

Written before the GK were direct genetic descendants of the Emperor, when their purity was assured through willpower, faith, and the blackest of sorceries.

 hordrak wrote:
According to the fluff in the Deamonkin book the highest rank in Khornes forces is occupied by the Bloodthirsters. Deamon Princes serve under the command of a Bloodthirster. Angron, while being no mere mortal before his ascention, is technicaly still a Deamon Prince. However, he has lead squads of Bloodthirsters into battle, wich would roughly (based on the current fluff) be equal to a Space Marine Captain commanding a unit made up of Chapter Masters. The question: where does Angron stand in the ranking. Is he above the Greater Deamons of Khorne and if not then how can we explain the fluff for the First War for Armageddon?

He probably beat all the Bloodthirsters in his service. Even Lorgar managed to defeat a stronger Bloodthirster. Primarch's are an exception to the rule, and a Primarch Daemon Prince would chew up Greater Daemons.