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After Eddie's rather embarassing thrashing in the last election, the Labour ship seems to be going down in flames, with three of the New Labour types desperately trying to grab the helm of the Old Labourite that's come smashing onto the bridge. It's actually rather embarassing really, I find, and indicative of what Labour has come to.

So do you believe that Corbyn should win leadership? Do you think his policies are viable? Do you consider the next election unwinnable with him in? Does that even matter?

I'm of the opinion that Corbyn winning leadership is the best thing that could happen long term for the Labour party. Why? Because I feel that New Labour has forgotten what the word 'principle' means. Everything and anything is up for auction so long as it wins them power, and people have now cottoned onto that fact. I personally believe that regardless of what tosh Kendall and Cooper shout about Corbyn being unelectable, they are far more unelectable than he. New Labour is done for in the eyes of the voters. What's more, as a left winger, Corbyn taking over could allow Labour to steal back some of the steam from SNP. I don't think they have the ability to do so otherwise, Scotland feels so betrayed the New Labour elite.

With regards to Corbyns policies, I believe that simply saying 'he wants to drag us back to the 1970's' is a disingenuous way of trying to dismiss him. The economy and the social makeup is different to the 1970's. His policies may or may not work (it's hard to say), but there's definitely scope for discussion and debate.

I predicted at the end of the last election that Labour would need to find out who they were again before they could pose a serious challenge to the Tories, and that process has begun. I see the possible outcomes as:-

1. Corbyn will lose the leadership challenge, and Labour will lose the next election. They will then go through this process again with another old-school Labourite.
2. Corbyn will win the leadership challenge, and Labour loses the next election. Corbyn will most likely have purged (in true old school fashion) the iron grip the New Labour faction has on the party as best he is able by then, and his successor will have an open playing field on the direction he wants to take the party.
3. Corbyn wins Leadership and general election. Interesting times ensue.

Corbyn's alright, I guess. He's the least likely to be a lizard, at least.

Labour, regardless of leadership, has been run into the rocks and is going to have to try to get back into the running. I doubt it'll win 2020, regardless of who's at the helm/

Honestly, this leadership election has just been amusing for me. It went from Corbyn stating he wouldn't win to him having over 50% of the vote, and a sort of frenzied tirade of spittle and, somehow, tedium about how Labour will become literally worthless and that people won't vote for the most popular candidate (somehow).

My opinion is basically that Corbyn (or another principled left-wing politician) is the only hope that Labour have if they want to survive as a party. Nobody will vote for another Blairite, we've learnt that lesson already. Personally, I think outcome 2 is the most likely.

My feeling is that if Corbyn doesn't win the election, so what?

What is the point in Labour winning is if the only way they can win is to become Tory-lite and betray everything the party is supposed to stand for?

The most popular candidate with Labour party members.

That said, anyone who doesn't win their own party nomination doesn't get a shot at an election anywa.

I basically agree with Ketara. My only niggle is that Milliband wasn't totally hopeless. He actually increased Labour's share of the vote in 2015 compared to 2010, but because of losing so much in Scotland they could not challenge.

If Corbyn helped Labour in Scotland which is almost certain, it will help Labour a lot at Westminster too.

However, the Tories have four years for the economy to pull round and start to benefit the majority of the people again. If this happens, they will win in 2020, unless the welfare state is so gutted by then that even middle class people are worried about healthcare, pensions and so on.

At any rate I believe the New Labour project is largely finished and discredited.

Secondly, Corbyn might want to talk about nationlisation and so on but I don't think that is likely to happen. I think it's establishing a more socialist direction for the party that will be used to reverse some of the cuts in social welfare that have been forced through in the past five years.

 Ketara wrote:

I'm of the opinion that Corbyn winning leadership is the best thing that could happen long term for the Labour party. Why? Because I feel that New Labour has forgotten what the word 'principle' means. Everything and anything is up for auction so long as it wins them power, and people have now cottoned onto that fact. I personally believe that regardless of what tosh Kendall and Cooper shout about Corbyn being unelectable, they are far more unelectable than he. New Labour is done for in the eyes of the voters. What's more, as a left winger, Corbyn taking over could allow Labour to steal back some of the steam from SNP. I don't think they have the ability to do so otherwise, Scotland feels so betrayed the New Labour elite.

Sums up my thoughts exactly. Corbyn actually seems to have some conviction, and some idea of what the Party's roots and whole raison d'etre is, Left Wing (as opposed to 'a few mm Left of a vaguely defined Centre'), which is more than can be said for the others.

Going to close to the centre and the willingness to sell anything for power is what killed the LibDems over the last term, Labour doing the same is just about the most disastrous thing that could happen in UK politics.

Quite honestly, the Labour Party could take a fair few hints from the SNP, both in policy and in how they operate.

Corbyn's leadership will be a disaster for the Labour party. In fact, it's a sign of how low Labour have sunk, that somebody like Corbyn is the frontrunner.

Years ago, Corbyn would have been your average Labour MP with views and policies that Labour endorsed.

In recent years, Blair and Brown abandoned those principals, and Labour have been trying to out Tory the Tories. That's why Corbyn seems radical, when he's about as radical as sliced bread.

He reminds Labour what they used to be, when 30 years ago, his views would have barely batted an eyelid in the party.

Lots of people seem to be projecting their left-wing fantasies onto Corbyn, when in reality, he's never been a minster or held a shadow post. And his discipline is notoriously bad - he could find it hard to command loyalty when he's showed little himself, in the past.

If Corbyn wins, we can expect the following:

Civil War in the Labour party

His leadership undermined by his enemies (Blairites) leaking stuff to the right wing press to undermine him.

Hostile reaction from most newspapers

And probably a hostile reaction from an English electorate that has shifted to the Right these past 30 years.

Corbyn is unlikely to win back voters in Scotland, as he's made no secret of his support for the Union, despite supporting Irish unification.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Lots of people seem to be projecting their left-wing fantasies onto Corbyn, when in reality, he's never been a minster or held a shadow post. And his discipline is notoriously bad - he could find it hard to command loyalty when he's showed little himself, in the past.

I agree with this to an extent. He's never held Government office, even a small portfolio, and that lack of experience could harm him were he to win power.

But the flip side of the coin is that none of them bar Burnham/Cooper have got any real experience any more (and they were decidedly junior). So whoever they pick, Labour will run into this problem. That's not so much an issue with Corbyn as it is the paucity of talent within Labour. I mean, Kendall's only been an MP for one term before this one for crying out loud.

If Corbyn wins, we can expect the following:

Civil War in the Labour party

His leadership undermined by his enemies (Blairites) leaking stuff to the right wing press to undermine him.

This I can also see. Old school Labourites don't tend to put up with open dissension in the ranks any more than New Labour does though, Labour has historically always been a bit Stalinist. I have a sneaky feeling that these disturbances wouldn't last long before he boots every New Labourite back out the door. With the amount of dirty laundry the like of Andy Burnham have, he should be able to whip them far more effectively than he himself was ever whipped.

I actually think that if Corbyn wins, Burnham will fall in with him as best possible anyway, it'll be Cooper/Kendall/Umunna that try and make waves.

Hostile reaction from most newspapers

And probably a hostile reaction from an English electorate that has shifted to the Right these past 30 years.

This I'm afraid I don't agree with. Depending on how badly the Tory sleaze gets over the next decade or so (and it always does get pretty bad towards the end), I think trying to predict the press and electorate isn't wise (as the pollsters just found out).

Corbyn is unlikely to win back voters in Scotland, as he's made no secret of his support for the Union, despite supporting Irish unification.

This I wholeheartedly disagree with, on the basis that being a Unionist does not preclude popularity in Scotland. All of the SNP's voters are not Separatists, they just see the SNP as doing the best possible thing for Scotland. A revitalised left wing Labour could pose a challenge to the SNP.

Let's remember that although SNP won 95% of the seats in Scotland, they only won 50% of the votes, while at the referendum they won only 45% of the votes.

It follows that the SNP not only is not as popular in Scotland as might be supposed from the number of seats they hold, but also that a significant people voted for them in the general election from political rather than nationalist motives.

If those people are ex-Labour voters, who drifted away because of disillusion with right-wing New Labour, they should be tempted back by the New New Old Labour with a more left-wing stance.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Let's remember that although SNP won 95% of the seats in Scotland, they only won 50% of the votes, while at the referendum they won only 45% of the votes.

It follows that the SNP not only is not as popular in Scotland as might be supposed from the number of seats they hold, but also that a significant people voted for them in the general election from political rather than nationalist motives.

If those people are ex-Labour voters, who drifted away because of disillusion with right-wing New Labour, they should be tempted back by the New New Old Labour with a more left-wing stance.

Long term, I agree that Labour could pose a threat again to the SNP, due to electoral cycles (after all, the SNP have been in power for 8 years) but short term? It's only going to get worse for Labour in Scotland due to the following reasons:

1) They are desperately short of money. In the past, they relied on Scottish MPs diverting funding/wages to fill the coffers. Having only 1 MP in Scotland has turned a bad financial situation in a catastrophe, as this money has dried up.

2) The SNP has around 100,000 members compared to the generous estimate of Labour only having 15,000 members. That is a massive imbalance. Labour are desperately short of people in Scotland who are willing to post leaflets, knock on doors during elections, hold meetings etc etc the bread and butter stuff of elections.

3) Scottish Labour, quite frankly, is a shambles, and due to the popularity of Nicola Sturgeon and the slick campaign team the SNP have up here, May 2016's Scottish Parliament elections are only going to result in another SNP landslide. Only a major, major, scandal of epic proportions can derail the SNP before May 2016.

4) People are sick to the back teeth of Labour. They ruled up here for 60 years, and the stories of corruption and cronyism in the West of Scotland, are shocking.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Lots of people seem to be projecting their left-wing fantasies onto Corbyn, when in reality, he's never been a minster or held a shadow post. And his discipline is notoriously bad - he could find it hard to command loyalty when he's showed little himself, in the past.

I agree with this to an extent. He's never held Government office, even a small portfolio, and that lack of experience could harm him were he to win power.

But the flip side of the coin is that none of them bar Burnham/Cooper have got any real experience any more (and they were decidedly junior). So whoever they pick, Labour will run into this problem. That's not so much an issue with Corbyn as it is the paucity of talent within Labour. I mean, Kendall's only been an MP for one term before this one for crying out loud.

If Corbyn wins, we can expect the following:

Civil War in the Labour party

His leadership undermined by his enemies (Blairites) leaking stuff to the right wing press to undermine him.

This I can also see. Old school Labourites don't tend to put up with open dissension in the ranks any more than New Labour does though, Labour has historically always been a bit Stalinist. I have a sneaky feeling that these disturbances wouldn't last long before he boots every New Labourite back out the door. With the amount of dirty laundry the like of Andy Burnham have, he should be able to whip them far more effectively than he himself was ever whipped.

I actually think that if Corbyn wins, Burnham will fall in with him as best possible anyway, it'll be Cooper/Kendall/Umunna that try and make waves.

Hostile reaction from most newspapers

And probably a hostile reaction from an English electorate that has shifted to the Right these past 30 years.

This I'm afraid I don't agree with. Depending on how badly the Tory sleaze gets over the next decade or so (and it always does get pretty bad towards the end), I think trying to predict the press and electorate isn't wise (as the pollsters just found out).

Corbyn is unlikely to win back voters in Scotland, as he's made no secret of his support for the Union, despite supporting Irish unification.

This I wholeheartedly disagree with, on the basis that being a Unionist does not preclude popularity in Scotland. All of the SNP's voters are not Separatists, they just see the SNP as doing the best possible thing for Scotland. A revitalised left wing Labour could pose a challenge to the SNP.

I welcome a left-wing alternative top Cameron and Osborne, but it's hard to see beyond Corbyn as another Michael Foot - well meaning, but ultimately doomed to fail. I fully expect to see him stabbed in the back by his own party and the right-wing papers having a field day with leaked material.

Sadly, 2020, and I know it's an eternity in politics, is looking like another Tory victory

Unless of course the Tories implode over Europe, which is not unlikely

He will at least make Labour decide what they are. The issue IMO is that they are fighting too much between the left and the center. New Labour did well by being centralist. Suddenly everyone was wanting to proclaim there working classness even though they were clearly middle class. They were the party of the faux socialist. Those same people are now voting Tory for the same reason they did in the 80's. It is now becoming cool among the middle classes to proclaim how up and coming you are. How hard you work and how your business (even if you are not even self employed) relies on you and you need to work 60 hour weeks to make it.

I don't like Corbyn at all.. I don't think he is good for the country, but when the other options are wishy washy socialists who are not actually centralist enough to be new labour or him then I think he is the best thing for the party.

Hopefully Labour going hard left and Torys going more and more right will result in the Lib Dems sorting themselves out and getting back some of the voters. It may take a while for some people to forgive them though, and many people seem upset that they were in power with the Torys still.

I'm hooked on this debate! My fiancee is sick of listening to me going on about it

I like Corbyn. Not all of his policies make sense (re-opening the coal mines for example is a bit deluded), and he's certainly stuck in the past, but I do think he's got principles, honesty and compassion.

I find the foreign policy criticisms quite funny - people giving out that he spoke to Hamas or the IRA or whoever. They don't give Blair the same stick, and he's spoken to all the same people. Dialogue is how you end conflict.

But what has really stood out to me is the underhandedness and the vitriol, of the control freak New Labour establishment. They are a disgrace. And the Guardian has dropped all the notches in my estimation. I never was a huge fan, finding it's journalists to be the sort of left winger I find annoying (more about champagne socialism and feel good liberalism than economic justice). But christ almighty if the campaign and their dirty smears against Corbyn haven't shown them up for the absolute rag that they are. I sincerely hope it costs them money.

Edit: Although I am quite hopeful about it all - I think the thread is misnamed. It's an explosion of support they're having, not an implosion. 600,000 new interested people is a great thing for any political party.

I think they will try to bring him down as leader pretty soon after he's elected, and that might be the death of Labour as it stands, but it might need to die to let something better in in it's place.

I think Corbyn will win

unless the election is postponed because of all of 'these evil tory infiltrators', and this seems to be as much of an issue for some of the other candidates 'evil people who are planning to vote for Corbyn'

even if it is postponed and more purging of the voters happens I think he's still got a good shot at winning although if it hits 2nd preferences Burnham might be a slight threat

I hope his win will make labour think about what principals they want to have (beyond 'we must win the next election, no matter what') and

even if this does result in another general election loss (I think it would) it will be worth it.... he should at least regain some Scottish seats which I can't see any of the other 3 doing, and without Scottish seats Labour is really unlikely to win a first past the post election in the UK anyway

I want at least 2 clear choices in a general election, and with they way things have been going its been less and clear there are

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm hooked on this debate! My fiancee is sick of listening to me going on about it

I like Corbyn. Not all of his policies make sense (re-opening the coal mines for example is a bit deluded), and he's certainly stuck in the past, but I do think he's got principles, honesty and compassion.

I find the foreign policy criticisms quite funny - people giving out that he spoke to Hamas or the IRA or whoever. They don't give Blair the same stick, and he's spoken to all the same people. Dialogue is how you end conflict.

But what has really stood out to me is the underhandedness and the vitriol, of the control freak New Labour establishment. They are a disgrace. And the Guardian has dropped all the notches in my estimation. I never was a huge fan, finding it's journalists to be the sort of left winger I find annoying (more about champagne socialism and feel good liberalism than economic justice). But christ almighty if the campaign and their dirty smears against Corbyn haven't shown them up for the absolute rag that they are. I sincerely hope it costs them money.

Edit: Although I am quite hopeful about it all - I think the thread is misnamed. It's an explosion of support they're having, not an implosion. 600,000 new interested people is a great thing for any political party.

I think they will try to bring him down as leader pretty soon after he's elected, and that might be the death of Labour as it stands, but it might need to die to let something better in in it's place.

The title 'implosion' was more to do with the internal party implosion and squabbling, not the people voting.

I am pleasantly surprised so far to find that practically everyone is of a reasonably similar frame of mind on the whole thing to myself. Makes for a nice change!

But what has really stood out to me is the underhandedness and the vitriol, of the control freak New Labour establishment.

I think Old Labour wasn't particularly better in that respect, the Labour Party has always had somewhat stalinist tendencies to internal dissent. I think that what we're seeing here though, is the desperation of what political climbers are left in the Labour party. If Corbyn gets in, there'll all be out on their ears, possibly never to re-emerge. And for a professional politician, that's a horrifying prospect. So they're banding together for their own survival to try and tear him down.

I wonder if any of them have, even for just a moment, considered that if so many people are rooting for Corbyn, he might be the way forward, or actually have policies people are interested in. Because from what I can tell, they're so blinded by their own hubris that they believe they know what is best for the party and country, even if everyone else (i.e. the democratic majority) disagrees with them.

RE: The New Labour careerists - Nail, on the head, someone call an ambulance.

 Da Boss wrote:
RE: The New Labour careerists - Nail, on the head, someone call an ambulance.

I won't miss them. If it takes another ten years of Tory rule for the Labour and Lib Dem parties to get their stuff together and sort out serious policies/principles again, then bring on the Tories I say. God forbid they can't be any worse than Liz Kendall or Chuka Umunna in power. I don't like Tories much, but I'll take them any day over the Labour careerists.

 Ketara wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
RE: The New Labour careerists - Nail, on the head, someone call an ambulance.

I won't miss them. If it takes another ten years of Tory rule for the Labour and Lib Dem parties to get their stuff together and sort out serious policies/principles again, then bring on the Tories I say. God forbid they can't be any worse than Liz Kendall or Chuka Umunna in power. I don't like Tories much, but I'll take them any day over the Labour careerists.

You might want 10 more years of Tory rule, but some of us would prefer a knee to the groin rather than suffer 10 more years of George Osborne, or heaven forbid, Boris Johnson


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think Corbyn will win

unless the election is postponed because of all of 'these evil tory infiltrators', and this seems to be as much of an issue for some of the other candidates 'evil people who are planning to vote for Corbyn'

even if it is postponed and more purging of the voters happens I think he's still got a good shot at winning although if it hits 2nd preferences Burnham might be a slight threat

I hope his win will make labour think about what principals they want to have (beyond 'we must win the next election, no matter what') and

even if this does result in another general election loss (I think it would) it will be worth it.... he should at least regain some Scottish seats which I can't see any of the other 3 doing, and without Scottish seats Labour is really unlikely to win a first past the post election in the UK anyway

I want at least 2 clear choices in a general election, and with they way things have been going its been less and clear there are

Even without the Scottish seats, Blair would have won those elections. It's a myth that Labour need Scotland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm hooked on this debate! My fiancee is sick of listening to me going on about it

I like Corbyn. Not all of his policies make sense (re-opening the coal mines for example is a bit deluded), and he's certainly stuck in the past, but I do think he's got principles, honesty and compassion.

I find the foreign policy criticisms quite funny - people giving out that he spoke to Hamas or the IRA or whoever. They don't give Blair the same stick, and he's spoken to all the same people. Dialogue is how you end conflict.

But what has really stood out to me is the underhandedness and the vitriol, of the control freak New Labour establishment. They are a disgrace. And the Guardian has dropped all the notches in my estimation. I never was a huge fan, finding it's journalists to be the sort of left winger I find annoying (more about champagne socialism and feel good liberalism than economic justice). But christ almighty if the campaign and their dirty smears against Corbyn haven't shown them up for the absolute rag that they are. I sincerely hope it costs them money.

Edit: Although I am quite hopeful about it all - I think the thread is misnamed. It's an explosion of support they're having, not an implosion. 600,000 new interested people is a great thing for any political party.

I think they will try to bring him down as leader pretty soon after he's elected, and that might be the death of Labour as it stands, but it might need to die to let something better in in it's place.

I don't get how Corbyn believes in Irish unification but not Scottish Independence, or even more powers for Scotland. He seems dead against even a federal settlement for the UK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steve steveson wrote:
He will at least make Labour decide what they are. The issue IMO is that they are fighting too much between the left and the center. New Labour did well by being centralist. Suddenly everyone was wanting to proclaim there working classness even though they were clearly middle class. They were the party of the faux socialist. Those same people are now voting Tory for the same reason they did in the 80's. It is now becoming cool among the middle classes to proclaim how up and coming you are. How hard you work and how your business (even if you are not even self employed) relies on you and you need to work 60 hour weeks to make it.

I don't like Corbyn at all.. I don't think he is good for the country, but when the other options are wishy washy socialists who are not actually centralist enough to be new labour or him then I think he is the best thing for the party.

Hopefully Labour going hard left and Torys going more and more right will result in the Lib Dems sorting themselves out and getting back some of the voters. It may take a while for some people to forgive them though, and many people seem upset that they were in power with the Torys still.

Yeah, I've noticed that change as well. In the early days of the Blair years, everybody wanted to be working class. Now the working class is seen as an embarrassment.

I don't think Labour will be in government for a long time after the thrashing they received in the election. I think there's a distinct lack of talent in the New Labour camp. I also think Corbyn, if elected Labour leader will struggle to control the party as a good number of them don't like his old fashioned ideas.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I don't think Labour will be in government for a long time after the thrashing they received in the election. I think there's a distinct lack of talent in the New Labour camp. I also think Corbyn, if elected Labour leader will struggle to control the party as a good number of them don't like his ideas.

The boundary changes favour the Tories and make it much harder for a Labour win in England, which is all you need to win a UK election.

BUT

Who knows what will happen to the Tories over the EU referendum. The Tories have a habit of tearing themselves to bits over Europe, and Dave only has a small majority. A Tory backbench rebellion could damage him big time and allow Labour to capitalise.

It happened to John Major.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
RE: The New Labour careerists - Nail, on the head, someone call an ambulance.

I won't miss them. If it takes another ten years of Tory rule for the Labour and Lib Dem parties to get their stuff together and sort out serious policies/principles again, then bring on the Tories I say. God forbid they can't be any worse than Liz Kendall or Chuka Umunna in power. I don't like Tories much, but I'll take them any day over the Labour careerists.

You might want 10 more years of Tory rule, but some of us would prefer a knee to the groin rather than suffer 10 more years of George Osborne, or heaven forbid, Boris Johnson

If Boris Johnson gets in as Tory Leader , I will change my mind quicker than an atom goes around the LHC. But I don't see May or Osborne letting him anywhere near it.

If it comes to that, Ketara. Never underestimate the Tory ability to implode over Europe.

Would be fun to have both Labour and the Tories imploding

Yay. Then we can be like Turkey or Greece.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
...his discipline is notoriously bad - he could find it hard to command loyalty when he's showed little himself, in the past.

I think that's part of the charm, more than anything.

Anyway, I think people need to remember that it won't be him in charge of everything. He's more a figurehead than anything, a face to put on the party. Granted, the party will change, but if it goes to ruin it won't entirely be his fault.

Blairite - Leftwing - Doesn't matter who they are. The labour party is alive in name only.

Labour need to address what and who they actually represent.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The most popular candidate with Labour party members.

That said, anyone who doesn't win their own party nomination doesn't get a shot at an election anywa.

I basically agree with Ketara. My only niggle is that Milliband wasn't totally hopeless. He actually increased Labour's share of the vote in 2015 compared to 2010, but because of losing so much in Scotland they could not challenge.

If Corbyn helped Labour in Scotland which is almost certain, it will help Labour a lot at Westminster too.

However, the Tories have four years for the economy to pull round and start to benefit the majority of the people again. If this happens, they will win in 2020, unless the welfare state is so gutted by then that even middle class people are worried about healthcare, pensions and so on.

At any rate I believe the New Labour project is largely finished and discredited.

Secondly, Corbyn might want to talk about nationlisation and so on but I don't think that is likely to happen. I think it's establishing a more socialist direction for the party that will be used to reverse some of the cuts in social welfare that have been forced through in the past five years.

Two quick comments re Scotland;

1. In fact, even if Labour had taken every Scottish seat, nevermind just the same number the had before, they still would have lost to the Tories, because Scotland doesn't magically gain an extra 16 seats if we vote Labour(indeed, Scottish seats have almost never been crucial to a government majority in the UK, England elects the UK government as it always has, simply by virtue of having the largest population). I've seen the argument made that fear of the SNP generated by media scares contributed to Labour's losses in England, but the reality is that a combination of Labour's relentless policy triangulation & abdication of the political narrative on austerity/neoliberal "economics", the much longer running campaign in the media to undermine Miliband's credibility(which, lets be honest, wasn't nearly as difficult for them as it should have been), and UKIP voters returning to the Tories in droves in those seats where voting UKIP might allow in Labour/LDs(thus threatening the best chance of getting what they want most; the in-out EU referendum) were the main factors in the Tories' narrow victory.

2. While Corbyn would no doubt be a start on changing Labour's fortunes up here, he'll struggle to make a dent in the SNP's new expanded voter base beyond "honeymoon polls" unless a few other things happen as well, chief amongst them him actually leading Labour if he wins the election, which is by no means certain given the party is presently giving every impression that they're trying to rig the vote with their McCarthyist purge of "entryists" which looks to be disproportionately kicking out Corbyn supporters or lefties who'd be likely to back Corbyn(some even after they've already voted for him), not to mention MP's openly talking of forming "resistance movements" or insisting there will be an immediate coup by the PLP if he wins.

Even assuming his opponents grow a sense of proportion and accept defeat gracefully though, Corbyn-led Labour has a way to go yet up here. For one, he's saddled with the truly abysmal Scottish Labour MSPs, who are by turns vacuous placemen, faceless nobodies, bitter & angry anti-Nats who have no ideas beyond "SNP BAD!", and well-meaning incompetents. For another, he's taken the stance that further devolution is unnecessary, but polling consistently shows that people up here do want more. The best case scenario at the moment, barring any colossal scandal involving the SNP, is that they claw back enough Holyrood seats to force the SNP into a minority government or coalition(unlikely on present polling) and nudge things just far enough to make FPTP work for them again at WM elections.

If I sound like I'm being negative about Corbyn, I'm not. Despite his fairly typical Labour "I'm a socialist not a unionist" unionism and vague antipathy towards further devolution, I very much agree that he's pretty much the only chance UK Labour have of becoming relevant again, and if we could take the whole apparatus of the British state(FPTP, Lords, reckless military adventurism, the totally unaccountable "chumocracy" that exists between high level politicians, businessmen, & civil servants etc) out of the equation, I'd very likely be a supporter. As it stands though, for me, I won't be voting for UK parties again unless either the SNP feth up so badly they cease to be an option, or the UK as a system undergoes the reforms it desperately needs IMO; a fair & representative voting system, the abolition of the House of Lords(and ideally, but I'm realistic enough to not make it a dealbreaker, the monarchy too), and media regulation that preserves press freedom and public interest journalism but which still has the necessary teeth to deal with the current predatory sensationalist corporate outfits.

Whether I'm alone or not we'll have to see, but I'd caution against seeing a new leader as a magic bullet for Labour in Scotland, not so long ago you'll recall lots of people believed Jim Murphy would slay the SNP dragon, and he lost his seat along with 39 of his colleagues - Corbyn is going to have to do a lot more than merely win the leadership if he's to be a major factor in revitalising Labour in Scotland.

 Steve steveson wrote:
He will at least make Labour decide what they are. The issue IMO is that they are fighting too much between the left and the center. New Labour did well by being centralist. -snip-

In fact Labour lost substantial vote share at every election after Blair's first(and lets be honest, a donkey in a red rosette could have won in '97 given the clapped-out scandal-, sleaze-, and EU-backbiting-ridden state of the Tory party of the day), close to 8 million lost voters by the time of Brown's final defeat IIRC. New Labour "centralism" gained them crowing adulation from affluent middle-class media mouthpieces, wealthy pop-stars, and leftie London professionals, and of course the Tories(who were tickled-pink that Labour's leadership had bought Thatcher's "there is no alternative" line on neoliberalism), but it drove their real voter base - the people the party needs to win elections because of course all the middle-class "centralists" drifted back to the Lib Dems or the Tories in the end - into cynicism-induced apathy.

Blair and his cabal have very nearly destroyed the Labour party, whether it survives, or indeed whether it deserves to survive, we shall see.

Labour decided that they had to chase the centre to win, and the that's all they did to the detriment of the left. Now all these Blairites do is talk about winning. They don't seem to understand that voting disillusion is a result of the electorate not being offered choice. That and the attitudes of New Labour are engrained among those runners and they're convinced that anything else won't work, not that it's won them the last two elections. People my generation have never been offered a choice of a firmly left wing government, it's been decades. Prior to new labour was years of Thatcher and Major.

I think Corbyn has every chance of winning actually. But he needs a credible stance on immigration which will definitely be a big issue next election with thousands trying to force through boarders across Europe and right on our doorstep having somehow travelled across all Europe. Cameron says they are 'swarming' which is exactly what you can call hundreds of people charging the fences and tunnels in Calais each night and yet labour leaders wag their finger and tell him off for using words like 'swarming'. People have had enough of the perception that labour is soft on immigration. If Corbyn or anyone else is half-hearted on immigration they won't be elected.

I have no (current) intention of voting for Labour, even if its lead by Corbyn. But I want to see him lead the party.

I'm of the opinion that Labour should go Left, and the Conservatives should go right.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

I'm of the opinion that Corbyn winning leadership is the best thing that could happen long term for the Labour party. Why? Because I feel that New Labour has forgotten what the word 'principle' means. Everything and anything is up for auction so long as it wins them power, and people have now cottoned onto that fact. I personally believe that regardless of what tosh Kendall and Cooper shout about Corbyn being unelectable, they are far more unelectable than he. New Labour is done for in the eyes of the voters. What's more, as a left winger, Corbyn taking over could allow Labour to steal back some of the steam from SNP. I don't think they have the ability to do so otherwise, Scotland feels so betrayed the New Labour elite.

Sums up my thoughts exactly. Corbyn actually seems to have some conviction, and some idea of what the Party's roots and whole raison d'etre is, Left Wing (as opposed to 'a few mm Left of a vaguely defined Centre'), which is more than can be said for the others.

Going to close to the centre and the willingness to sell anything for power is what killed the LibDems over the last term, Labour doing the same is just about the most disastrous thing that could happen in UK politics.

Quite honestly, the Labour Party could take a fair few hints from the SNP, both in policy and in how they operate.

It was Nick Clegg that killed the lib dems not the centre ground

I sympathise with Corbyn's principals but I doubt he'll get the chance to implement them

Labour - the country - needs Corbyn to win. Like him or not, agree with him or not, he's the only alternative to a list of candidates whose script consists of "We do everything the Tories do, but we do it with a nicer smile. So vote for us because we're not Tories."
Democracy doesn't work if everybody is doing the same thing.

Corbyn might only last a few months before the Labour party trips over itself and runs another leadership election, but it's going to be the most entertaining few months we've seen in a while.

As to the Tories, if they can keep it together for three or four years then they should win 2020 regardless of what Labour do. After that I expect them to regress into their natural, atavistic, nasty party ways of infighting and back stabbing.