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I'm discussing with a friend for like an hour or 2 now:
He says that if I put a unit with the Deep Strike Special Rule on reserves it must enter via DS.
I say that even though a unit having the DS special rule can enter from your table edge from reserves if you want so.

Specifically with Necrons Deathmarks that have all his benefits if they are in DS reserves, I let him do it, since it's a friendly game, but told him that he has to say they will be placed in DS reserves. He said he doesn't need to say so because if they are placed on reserves, they HAVE to enter via DS.

Pls everyone say his opinion, or even if it's just a "He is right" "your are right"

I always say before the match happens if I have a unit in reserves or deep strike reserves, just to not complicate things.

But even if you do say that to someone and then change your mind, you can still just come in on the tables edge instead of deep striking.

Tell your friend to show you where it says in the rule book where you HAVE to come in DS if you have it. That way I will learn something knew too lol

You do have to say if they arw on normal treserves or DS reserves. I think thats on the DS section of the rulebook.

sangheili wrote:
You do have to say if they arw on normal treserves or DS reserves. I think thats on the DS section of the rulebook.

I think same as you, and you can't change from one reserve to another as I have understood, like Snoopdeville3 said.

He says that DS is imperative.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
- Deep Strike

I am leaning heavily towards 'no choice, once it is in Reserves' because of the above underlined word, but want it on record that I think the Deep Strike Special Rule is one of the worse written Special Rules in the book. The authors may have intended for us to have a choice in the matter, but thanks to the trigger of 'When placing the Unit into Reserves' and the inclusion of the word 'must' in the instructions... as soon as the Unit hit's Reserves you must inform your opponent that it is Deep Striking. This eliminates the ability to make the choice to arrive normally.

Like always, talk to your opponent when it comes to doing 'tricks with Deep Strike' thanks to the poor wording.

The "must" you underlined is for "tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike"

If you don't tell your opponent "it will be arriving by Deep Strike" You are not able to do so.

And the trigger for that sentence is: When placing the Unit in Reserves...
If you place the Unit into Reserves and do not tell your opponent it is Deep Striking, have you obeyed the Rules for Deep Striking?

JinxDragon wrote:
And the trigger for that sentence is: When placing the Unit in Reserves...
If you place the Unit into Reserves and do not tell your opponent it is Deep Striking, have you obeyed the Rules for Deep Striking?

You haven't obeyed the rule for Deep Striking, then you can't Deep Strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I Agree that once you said "this is arriving by Deep Strike" you can't change back. I'm saying if you don't say "this is arriving by Deep Strike" it arrives normally.

Again, I think the Rule is one of the most poorly written but it does say:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must ...

It is that trigger that causes a bit of a problem, informing us what happens when the Unit is placed into Reserves.

Guess the real question is:
Can you choose not to evoke a Rule?

In your exam, your opponent would need to tell you that they are in deep strike reserve. If they do not, you should ask your opponent if they plan to use the deathmark's special rule that allows them to deep strike/ intercept one of your units. Regardless of if the player forgets his rules or not, it is a formality of the game.

My example would be a Chaos decimator daemon engine. He has the special rule deep strike, but the player can choose if they want to deploy as normal, normal reserves, or deep strike reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

The section goes on to state some units must arrive by deep strike, and they always begin the game in reserves and always arrive by deepstrike.

It does state that when you place the unit in reserve, you must do something- tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike.

However the sentence before it, "in order to be able to deep strike...." shows what is needed to deep strike. IMO this heavily shows that it is intended that the next sentence about must do something, is what you must do if the unit is going to deep strike.

So you must tell your opponent that the unit is in reserves, and will be arriving by deepstrike. It does not actually state plainly that units with deep strike may not be put in reserves, unless of course you read the last bit which says some units must arrive by deep strike, in which case they must be in reserves and always are arriving by deepstrike. Another suggestion that units that are not required to arrive by deepstrike, but may have deepstrike can arrive a different way (reserves, scout, etc)

If the unit can deep strike, but doesn't have the "must arrive by deepstrike" then you can put the unit in normal reserves, but you cannot later change your mind and have them deepstrike as you did not tell your opponent they are arriving by deepstrike. And vice versa.

The rules of a paragraph in English tell you that the first sentence in the paragraph sets the subject of that paragraph. The subject of this paragraph is how your unit with the deepstrike rule enters deepstrike reserves.

That is where the beginning of the sentence in question comes in; if you are going to deepstrike:.

Outflank is also worded similarly.

However, if an opponent chooses to change their mind before Infiltrators deploy and Scouts redeploy, I'd be fine with it. It's still Deployment after all.

But once a game starts or other limits put in to play, such as Infiltrate or Scouts, than it is locked in, and he would need a good argument to change their Reserve status.

And Deathmarks not Deep Striking? Foolishness. Except when disallowed by scenario, they should always Deep Strike. Can't use their best rule, otherwise.

The Scions codex has formations consisting of tauroxes and scions. The scions have to start inside their vehicles. There's a note there saying that if you do choose to put them in reserves then when they do arrive, they'll arrive all at once. This is (very, very weak*) evidence that deep-striking units can be placed in reserve and arrive without deep-striking.


*The assumption that GW rules-writers know the rules isn't always a good assumption.

I understand the rules to mean that if a unit has the Deep Strike USR, and it starts in Reserve, and you tell your opponent (when you place it in Reserve) it will arriva via Deep Strike, it can arrive via Deep Strike.

Which means one of two things: either the game rules allow you to lie about your intentions, and the unit can arrive from Reserves normally or via Deep Strike, whichever you choose when bringing the unit in from Reserves, OR the game rules are written with the understanding or restriction that you must be truthful about your intentions, and therefore once you place the unit with the Deep Strike USR in Reserves, and tell your opponent it will be arriving via Deep Strike, your only option is to bring that unit in via Deep Strike.

I'm pretty sure the latter is correct. =)

Edit: oops, forgot the second part...

On the other hand, the rules are pretty clear on that fulfilling the requirements gives you the ability to arrive via Deep Strike. It doesn't say that unit has to arrive via Deep Strike, but rather that it can. It also does say that "some units" must arrive via DS. Presumably it's referring to those units whose rules specify they must arrive via DS.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules of a paragraph in English tell you that the first sentence in the paragraph sets the subject of that paragraph. The subject of this paragraph is how your unit with the deepstrike rule enters deepstrike reserves.

That is where the beginning of the sentence in question comes in; if you are going to deepstrike:.

And so, If I'm not going to deepstrike, I place the unit in reserves but don't say it will arrive by Deep Strike, is that what you mean?

blaktoof wrote:If the unit can deep strike, but doesn't have the "must arrive by deepstrike" then you can put the unit in normal reserves, but you cannot later change your mind and have them deepstrike as you did not tell your opponent they are arriving by deepstrike. And vice versa.

I Agree with that.

So, Once you say "This unit will arrive by Deep Strike" you start separating Normal Reserves from Deep Strike Reserves, Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
And Deathmarks not Deep Striking? Foolishness. Except when disallowed by scenario, they should always Deep Strike. Can't use their best rule, otherwise.

Off course he wanted to DS them, what I mean is that he Didn't say that, of course, being a friendly game I had no problem letting him Deep Strike them, we all knew he wanted to DS them.

But he said they could ONLY enter via DS... better said, he said that ANY unit having the DS rule left in reserves MUST enter via DS. I said that, for example, My Gargoyles have DS but I'd rather prefer them comming from the edge of the table. (like for example Gargoyls from the the Syblight swarm)

Still pondering this question:
If a Special Rule lacks instructions allowing the player to choose to do X, and therefore the choice not to do X, does that Rule force them to do X?

JinxDragon wrote:
Again, I think the Rule is one of the most poorly written but it does say:
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must ...

It is that trigger that causes a bit of a problem, informing us what happens when the Unit is placed into Reserves.

It doesn't cause a problem, because context matters.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, ... you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike

If you don't tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike, the unit is not arriving by Deep Strike.

JinxDragon wrote:
Still pondering this question:
If a Special Rule lacks instructions allowing the player to choose to do X, and therefore the choice not to do X, does that Rule force them to do X?

It's more like "if a Special Rule lacks instruction to overwrite basic rules, does it do it?"

AFAIK, EVERY MODEL, has the ability to enter from reserves as normal UNLESS otherwise stated, such as "MUST ENTER VIA DEEPSTRIKE", or for immobile models (like Sporocyst) that say if the model was kept in reserves it MUST ENTER BY DEEP STRIKE.

Other models even though it would be a total waste to make them enter normally from reserves, that does not forbid them to do so.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
-Deep Strike

It is probably the fact I am not explaining the issue properly, so I will try once more and then just give up:
Even in the context that the first sentence are conditions that must be met before the Rule can take effect, and thus the second also contains conditions that must be met before the Rule takes effect, it doesn't eliminate the presence of a 'Trigger.' In all other Rules, triggers are used to inform us to carry out additional instructions as soon as the trigger itself has been met. The second sentence also contains the word must right after the trigger, therefore making it impossible for us to do anything other then what has been instructed. If the Rule lacked that trigger, instead beginning at 'tell your opponent,' then it would be condition we could avoid by not telling our opponent and thus disqualifying the use of the Special Rule.

Again, I believe the intention of the Rule is to be optional but this is one of the worse written Special Rules in the book, and this is just another element of how poorly it is written....
The trigger, followed by a must instruction, makes it impossible for this sentence to be an 'optional condition' that can be avoided.

Wallur wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
And Deathmarks not Deep Striking? Foolishness. Except when disallowed by scenario, they should always Deep Strike. Can't use their best rule, otherwise.

Off course he wanted to DS them, what I mean is that he Didn't say that, of course, being a friendly game I had no problem letting him Deep Strike them, we all knew he wanted to DS them.

But he said they could ONLY enter via DS... better said, he said that ANY unit having the DS rule left in reserves MUST enter via DS. I said that, for example, My Gargoyles have DS but I'd rather prefer them comming from the edge of the table. (like for example Gargoyls from the the Syblight swarm)

That makes more sense.

But if they are going to Deep Strike from Reserves, it MUST be declared, the Deep Strike rule is very clear on this. The only possible exception is when they are required to, but it is still good to tell your opponent.

Examples of units required to start in Deep Strike Reserves are the Drop Pod and Legion of the Damned. They have rules that specifically detail the must start in Deep Strike Reserves.

Examples of units not required to start in Deep Strike Reserves are Deathmarks and Gargoyles. They CAN start in Deep Strike Reserves, but only if the player is going to Deep Strike them. Nothing requires them to Deep Strike.

Another interesting example are the Flayed Ones and Stealth Suits. Both can Deep Strike, but can also Outflank due to having Infiltrate. One cannot both Deep Strike and Outflank from Reserves, so either they have to be declared as to which one they are going to come in with, or walk on like normal Infantry (or Thrust in the case of the Stealth Suits).

Well, we have Land Speeder Storm who has Deep Strike and Outlfank (from Scout).
This unit may enter game 4 ways:
- normal deployment;
- reserves - own table edge;
- reserves - outflank;
- reserves - deep strike;

Having the rule Deep Strike allows you to use it, not forces you to do so.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."
- Deep Strike special rule
First sentence tells us when unit can use this rule. It does not say that it must use this rule.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
- Deep Strike special rule
Second sentence tells us what we must do (say) in order to use this rule.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike.
- Deep Strike special rule
Third sentence confirms that DS is mandatory only to some units, not all.

Reading those three sentences out of their context is just silly.

The same silly argumentation could be used with units with Split Fire special rule:
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Split Firing unit’s initial shooting attack.
- Split Fire special rule
First sentence say it can, third sentence say it must be different target. So JinxDragon how is it, we read those sentences in proper context or units with Split Fire must spli fire?!

JinxDragon wrote:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
-Deep Strike

It is probably the fact I am not explaining the issue properly, so I will try once more and then just give up:
Even in the context that the first sentence are conditions that must be met before the Rule can take effect, and thus the second also contains conditions that must be met before the Rule takes effect, it doesn't eliminate the presence of a 'Trigger.' In all other Rules, triggers are used to inform us to carry out additional instructions as soon as the trigger itself has been met. The second sentence also contains the word must right after the trigger, therefore making it impossible for us to do anything other then what has been instructed. If the Rule lacked that trigger, instead beginning at 'tell your opponent,' then it would be condition we could avoid by not telling our opponent and thus disqualifying the use of the Special Rule.

Again, I believe the intention of the Rule is to be optional, but is one of the worse written Special Rules, and this is just another element of how poorly it is written....
The trigger, followed by a must instruction, makes it impossible for this sentence to be an 'optional condition' that can be avoided.

I completely understand what you are saying, and deep strike is badly written for this- but in many ways for other reasons even more so.

If you ignore the context of the first sentence and later sentences and look at the second sentence on its own, the RAW plainly does say you have to say the unit is arriving by deep strike if you put it in reserves. However the first sentence, and final sentence of that section show that the second sentence is most likely referring to -if- you want to deep strike an unit that has the option of deep striking as one of the ways it can arrive on the table. However this requires interpreting the second sentence as meaning something in relation to the other sentences in that section.

 danyboy wrote:
Well, we have Land Speeder Storm who has Deep Strike and Outlfank (from Scout).
This unit may enter game 4 ways:
- normal deployment;
- reserves - own table edge;
- reserves - outflank;
- reserves - deep strike;

Having the rule Deep Strike allows you to use it, not forces you to do so.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve."
- Deep Strike special rule
First sentence tells us when unit can use this rule. It does not say that it must use this rule.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
- Deep Strike special rule
Second sentence tells us what we must do (say) in order to use this rule.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike.
- Deep Strike special rule
Third sentence confirms that DS is mandatory only to some units, not all.

That is what I thought too.

So if my opponent says he is deepstriking, can he choose to change his mind on turn two? Or does he have to stick with what he told me when we went over our armies and what they are doing.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So if my opponent says he is deepstriking, can he choose to change his mind on turn two? Or does he have to stick with what he told me when we went over our armies and what they are doing.

He cannot change his mind.

However, something interested pointed out to me: if you mishap and go back into Ongoing Reserve, you don't Deep Strike the next turn, you walk on from your own edge.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So if my opponent says he is deepstriking, can he choose to change his mind on turn two? Or does he have to stick with what he told me when we went over our armies and what they are doing.

He cannot change his mind.

However, something interested pointed out to me: if you mishap and go back into Ongoing Reserve, you don't Deep Strike the next turn, you walk on from your own edge.

So a unit in a pod that mishaps and goes into ongoing, must walk on? Is the drop pod then considered destroyed since it must arrive from reserve?

Actually that was another thing I was thinking and asked in another Thread...

If a unit goes into ongoing reserves and has the DS special rule... can it Deep Strike from ongoing reserves? or when you put in ongoing reserves you must declare how is he coming back?

Since Ongoing reserves Say to treat it like Reserves except that you don't have to roll... So, if you treat Ongoing Reserves like Reserves, and Deep Strike says that when you place the unit in reserves you have to declare it is deep striking... when you put the unit in Ongoing Reserves, you have to declare it enters play Deep Striking.

You do not have to use Deep Strike if you don't want to, you are only obligated to do so if specifically stated, as in the case of Legion Of The Damned. You must declare which units will use Deep Strike (or Outflank) during deployment, when deciding what will be held in reserve. You cannot change your mind, so its best to mark down your choices on a notepad.

In the event of Ongoing Reserves the unit in question is treated as being in Reserves as normal except that it automatically enters play on the controlling players next turn. No roll is required. So if for example a Drop Pod rolls a Delayed mishap and is put into Ongoing Reserves it will enter play using the Deep Strike rule on its owners next turn. This may seem strange since you already "placed" the Pod once and it just hit a rock and that's why it was Delayed in the first place, so how exactly is it re-striking? ... Well its an abstraction that requires some FTN, what can I say? I didn't write the rules.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So if my opponent says he is deepstriking, can he choose to change his mind on turn two? Or does he have to stick with what he told me when we went over our armies and what they are doing.

He cannot change his mind.

However, something interested pointed out to me: if you mishap and go back into Ongoing Reserve, you don't Deep Strike the next turn, you walk on from your own edge.

So a unit in a pod that mishaps and goes into ongoing, must walk on? Is the drop pod then considered destroyed since it must arrive from reserve?

In the very unlikely event that a Pod would mishap, I think you'd have to go to a TO. I'd probably let the squad walk on and count the pod as destroyed, but I could easily see a TO ruling the unit destroyed entirely, or just allowing the pod to DS again.