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 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.

Misogyny, haha. Sure it all ties down to hatred of women, suuuuuuuuure.

We had some trans kids at school and it was not the "masculine men" who attacked them but petty girls. It was also girls who were responsible for all the suicides that occurred when I was at school. It has nothing to do with masculinity, or a hatred of women at all.

Please explain how a hatred of women has anything to do with transsexuals? All the girls who tried to be guys at school got made fun of by other girls. Did those girls hate themselves?

Google "fragile masculinity" and it floods your screen with tumblr links. You may want to lay off that site for anything worth learning.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.

Misogyny, haha. Sure it all ties down to hatred of women, suuuuuuuuure.

We had some trans kids at school and it was not the "masculine men" who attacked them but petty girls. It was also girls who were responsible for all the suicides that occurred when I was at school. It has nothing to do with masculinity, or a hatred of women at all.

Please explain how a hatred of women has anything to do with transsexuals? All the girls who tried to be guys at school got made fun of by other girls. Did those girls hate themselves?

Google "fragile masculinity" and it floods your screen with tumblr links. You may want to lay off that site for anything worth learning.

I don't use tumblr.

Anyway, it's a complex topic. A lot of transphobia stems from gender essentialism. Part of this is the notion that men are the universal combatant and women are the universal non-combatant. Then, since trans girls are "really" boys, they're actually the universal combatant pretending to be the universal non-combatant - they're the fox in the henhouse. You'll notice this hoopla doesn't occur over trans men using the men's bathroom.

You should get an inkling that something is up just from how much attention gets paid to trans women vs trans men. Why would a man want to be a woman? It doesn't make sense. Our society glorifies the masculine over the feminine - it "makes sense" for a woman to want to be like a man, even if we regard it as somewhat pitiable at the same time. When a man wants to "be like" a woman it makes a lie of the whole system.

I found "Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity" a pretty good read on this topic, though it is a little dated in some of its terminology now. You might find it interesting.

I had a really long answer based of my experiences growing up and recently leaving education (dad saw no gays/lesbians growing up, I can count more than 10 not including those who change their gender, very different trends today) etc but it is all anecdotal. I will scrap it, have a read and maybe come back. Nice answer to my snarky reply though (sorry about that).

I do disagree it has anything to do with a hatred of women. I find it hard to believe anyone who is a man can hate a women. In fact i disagree with most of what you just said, but I will come back after some reading.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

You should get an inkling that something is up just from how much attention gets paid to trans women vs trans men. Why would a man want to be a woman? It doesn't make sense. Our society glorifies the masculine over the feminine - it "makes sense" for a woman to want to be like a man, even if we regard it as somewhat pitiable at the same time. When a man wants to "be like" a woman it makes a lie of the whole system.

Interesting that I was typing that I would object to that very thing of a female with male gender identity using the facilities with me as you posted this.

Yes, our school allowed girls trying to be guys to wear pants, but still had to use girls restrooms and changing rooms. It worked both ways.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Spoiler:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I do disagree it has anything to do with a hatred of women. I find it hard to believe anyone who is a man can hate a women.

Spoilered because this is slightly OT. Sorry guys, but I simply must adress this.

Just out of curiousity, Swastakowey, are you sure no men hate women? Is this love and respect? If all men in your country were subjected to this treatment, do you think it would be justified to call it misandry?

You point to how women are treated over there but how many men got butchered by that group? Hint, more than women, I have seen endless videos of Taliban and similar groups killing men in all manner of ways and they specifically went on massacres of civilians (when they don't mention women and children in these massacres it means men are the victims). That is not women hatred but another kind of hatred based on more than just gender (since they do not only target women,, surely the hatred is based on something else yes?). So no I would not call it misandry.

Is male only conscription misandry? No, its just sensible if you want your country to survive a conflict. You can point to examples where a gender has issues but this does not equal a hatred of women or men. In fact, from their perspective they could very well be trying to do whats best (in their view) for people. I find it hard to believe anyone can hate a women.

Look at the synonyms for hate:

loathe, detest, dislike greatly, abhor, abominate, despise, execrate, feel aversion towards, feel revulsion towards, feel hostile towards, be repelled by, be revolted by, regard with disgust, not be able to bear/stand, be unable to stomach, find intolerable, shudder at, recoil from, shrink from

I doubt any man or woman could ever feel this way towards the opposite sex. Maybe against a specific person or group, but a whole gender? Well they would likely die a virgin because how can you sleep with something you feel "revulsion" to? It goes against the nature of a species that breeds.


Just some of the few sick things the Taliban has done to people:

The “castration” of the former Afghan president, Najibullah in 1996. The Taliban “dragged his body behind a jeep for several rounds of the palace and then shot him dead”. The 1998 massacre of 600 Uzbeks in the province of Faryab. “Western aid workers… said civilians were dragged from their homes, lined up and shot.” Other reports include accounts from refugees and human rights groups of the beating of infants, killing of children and hanging of bodies from lampposts. 8,000 people died by the following: hundreds of people were packed into containers where they suffocated when the doors were locked in the searing midday heat. Men, women and children were shot in their homes and on the street, and hospital patients were murdered in their beds.Mazar-e-Sharif was overrun by the Taliban, who have imposed the world's most extreme interpretation of Islam, barring women from education, banning television and forcing men to wear beards. The Taliban fighters swept through the city, firing heavy machineguns mounted on pickup trucks. One man described how the streets were covered with bodies and blood. The Taliban, he said, forbade anyone to bury the corpses for six days.On the second day, according to numerous witnesses, the Taliban began a house-to-house search for Hazara men. Hazaras, descended from Mongols, are easy to recognise by their distinctive Asiatic features compared with the ethnic Pashtuns who make up the ranks of the Taliban. They share their Shia faith with Iran, while the Taliban are Sunni Muslims.A witness whose testimony is described as "extremely reliable" by aid officials said most of the victims had been shot in the head, the chest and the testicles. Others had been slaughtered in what he called "the halal way" - by having their throats slit. Men not murdered on the spot were "stuffed into containers after being badly beaten", said another witness. He saw the doors opened on a container after all the men inside had died from suffocation.

There is more, but that does not sound like a group that "hates women", sounds like a group that hates many people regardless of gender.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Please do not read this article as anything other than a bloggers opinion.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Some of them are pretty rare and some aren't, with incidences of e.g. one in five hundred. Some of these "defects," again, are people who do not even know they have any kind of condition at all. You have interacted with them and never known it.

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

As I said there are anomalies as there are with everything.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

XX male syndrome occurs when there has been a recombination in the formation of the male gametes, causing the SRY-portion of the Y chromosome to move to the X chromosome. When such an X chromosome contributes to the child, the development will lead to a male, because of the SRY gene.

So in other words, Y is always present in males except an incredibly small minority. But even then the "SRY portion of the Y (see... the Y here) to move to the X chromosome... will lead to a male".

Pretty simple right? Just your article seems to try twist it to make out Y and X means nothing when talking about sex... when in fact it pretty much means everything. XX males still have Y in them.

I read the blog yesterday, slept on it, and then replied today after another painful read.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

As I said there are anomalies as there are with everything.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

XX male syndrome occurs when there has been a recombination in the formation of the male gametes, causing the SRY-portion of the Y chromosome to move to the X chromosome. When such an X chromosome contributes to the child, the development will lead to a male, because of the SRY gene.

So in other words, Y is always present in males except an incredibly small minority. But even then the "SRY portion of the Y (see... the Y here) to move to the X chromosome... will lead to a male".

Pretty simple right? Just your article seems to try twist it to make out Y and X means nothing when talking about sex... when in fact it pretty much means everything. XX males still have Y in them.

It's not saying they "mean nothing." It's saying that the picture of "women are XX, men are XY" is not actually the biological reality, which is actually much more complicated.

Its not though, because it's not what the Y looks like, but what is contained in the Y that matters. If a Male has XX he still has XY because one X has the Y contents in it to make him Male. It's not complicated at all. And to top it off this is a minor defect and not a general rule of the population. The Y, even if during the creation of the child, the Y mixes with an X... still creates a male. Why? Well because of the Y (well the SRY) really. There is no way to go around it.

A male with XX does not have XX chromosomes he has X and then a and X with the Y in the X. Females do not have a Y in their second X.

Has someone here studied genetics academically? Because all sources besides transgender ones say Y = Male and it is also what I was educated to believe and what my kids will be educated to know as well but if it is not true by some long shot I would like to know from an unbiased source.