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2015/09/02 23:44:56
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: Unfortunately certain members of the victim class don't see it that way.
Yes, the "white Christians" can be a tricky bunch, demanding special treatment and respect while not in any way realising they are not returning the favour.
What do white Christians have to do with girls not wanting to be exposed to penises while they are in various states of undress themselves? And you are giving lectures on straw men and appeals to emotion?
So hundreds must be violated in their most private and vulnerable moments to make one a bit happier.
Strawman and appeal to emotion.
Where is the straw man? People are advancing the argument that biological males should be allowed in locations where they and biological females are likely to be in various stages of undress, and that those who don't want to be in that situation are bigots who need to grow up. Changing and answering the call of nature are among our most private moments. People do feel vulnerable in those moments. The number of people who would feel violated by having someone with a penis around at those times easily exceeds hundreds, and is much larger than the number of people who have gender identity issues. That I've highlighted the ultimate effect of the argument in concise terms is not the creation of a straw man.
The entire premise of the side that you support in based on speak to emotion not logic, so please spare me the appeal to emotion handwringing. It is suggested that the boy (that's what cold logical biological reality says he is) who is the starting point for this discussion wishes to ignore reality (that he is a boy) and expects everyone to do the same treating him as a girl when he is in fact a boy. Why should we do this? Because he will feel better if we do. Why should we care how he feels? Because caring about people's emotions is the right thing to do. Ok, if that's the case then how about caring about the emotions of people who don't want to be exposed to a penis? You can't have it both ways.
Reasonable compromise in the form of providing an additional neutral environment available to all is unacceptable, and to propose the same is to expose one's self as a monster.
It remains to be seen that the proposed compromise was reasonable. Certainly there are many issues with providing a segregated changing and toileting area for people that some people don't feel belong in with other groups. There are many potential solutions and compromises possible in these types of situations; some better than others. Suggesting one does not make you a monster (appeal to emotion); stacking the suggestion and argument to unduely harm one or more of the involved parties makes you a monster, as does utterly refusing to inform yourself of the situation.
Is anyone here suggesting trying to harm Lila or other similar persons? Yet when people say let's protect the girls that don't want to be around a penis, words like "bigot", "ignorant", "segregationist", or your pejorative use of "white Christian" start getting tossed around liberally. Curiously you, an apparent champion of logic, aren't bothered by, and are even willing to dabble in the use of these logically fallacious ploys.
All must conform in thought, word and deed. Those who do not should be second class citizens at best.
So sayeth the LORD!
Oh, wait...
(Strawman, hyperbole and appeal to emotion).
Not really. Here in this thread those who say let the biological females keep privacy from biological males have been called bigots, segregationists (an emotional appeal using a loaded word you haven't bothered to correct) . I see posts that fail to accept views that vaginas shouldn't have to be in the same room as penises when clothes are going to be removed as reasonable or acceptable. You dismiss them as uniformed. It has been said here that if a biological female doesn't want to use the facility with a biological male, the female shouldn't get to use it at all. Sounds like second class citizen status to me. The take away is the idea of "accept whatever we tell you to and no we won't accept anything else". In other words conform in word, thought and deed or we will label you or do other bad stuff like not let you pee.
2015/09/02 23:45:21
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Psienesis wrote: You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?
I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.
You don't know much about high schools then or how old they are it the concept of a locker room. I'm sure there are rich schools with separate changing areas for each individual but none that I'm aware of in my state.
I graduated high school over 20 years ago, and my experience was then (and shared by others I've met over the subsequent 20+ years) that showering and such simply didn't happen. You changed into whatever uniform you were required for gym class (generally shorts and a t-shirt), did whatever you did in class, changed back and went to your next class. The most you might chance to see is someone's underwear, if you were (for whatever reason) paying attention to something other than the locker in front of you.
In the 70s and prior? Yeah, showering after gym class was a near universal thing. Hence "like 40 years" since the 70s were (surprise!) 40 years ago. Now, if you're on a school athletic team (baseball, football, soccer, etc) then, yeah, you're going to be hitting the shower with the team... but that's not what this topic pertains to.
You still need to change clothes, ideally leaving underwear on.
@d-usa, I'm a dressing the larger point, not just the story as this sort of issue is becoming more commonplace throughout the US in recent years. It's interesting to see how schools juggle the wishes of both sides in attempting to find common ground. For the most part, invested parties seem willing to work out a compromise; however, in this situation, the aggrieved individual seems less inclined to accept alternatives to her desires. So, whose concerns are paramount? The wishes of students and parents who do not wish for students to be nude or near nude in the presence of someone with opposite sex equipment or the person who identifies themselves as another gender? When one party is unwilling to negotiate, the result is bad press for all. I'm all for someone fighting for their rights but as a father I am most certainly able to see the other point of view as well.
Odd thought. I suppose it's possible for someone to identify as female and consider themselves bisexual or homosexual or whatever Hannah Montana says she is.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/09/02 23:47:08
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
TheMeanDM wrote: I graduated in 92 and we showered after gym class. *shrug*
Rage....bwahaha..aren't you cute :-D
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote:
This particular case deals with a restroom though, not a locker room. She dropped gym to avoid the locker room issue.
Did you read the article?
" Over 150 Missouri high school students voiced their displeasure about a transgender teen using the girls’ locker room by walking out of class.
Students at Hillsboro High School staged a two-hour walkout Monday over 17-year-old Lila Perry, a student who has identified as a female since she was 13, using the girls’ locker room during gym class.
The school offered Perry a gender-neutral bathroom, which she turned down. "
It's the last sentence:
Lila has dropped out of gym class for safety concerns, but she still plans on using the girl’s bathroom.
2015/09/02 23:54:17
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: Respect and decency should be a two way street. Unfortunately certain members of the victim class don't see it that way. No compromise is acceptable. You must accept everything about me on my terms or you are a bad person to be crushed.
So hundreds must be violated in their most private and vulnerable moments to make one a bit happier. Reasonable compromise in the form of providing an additional neutral environment available to all is unacceptable, and to propose the same is to expose one's self as a monster. All must conform in thought, word and deed. Those who do not should be second class citizens at best.
Pretending that "you are not a girl, now go to the restroom for 'things'" is a compromise is an interesting tactic.
If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl. Just because your brain tells you X is Y doesn't make it so. I'm not saying force everyone with a penis to in all circumstances act like the prototypical male and prevent them from taking any actions deemed feminine either. Brain chemistry and biological equipment don't always match up. I get that and I'm not trying to attack people that have issue. They may not want to go in the men's room dressed as a woman and forcing them to do so doesn't seem right. But forcing people with vaginas to have a penis around when taking care of business doesn't seem right either.
2015/09/03 00:06:30
Subject: Re:ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
As spock always says, the needs of an incredibly small and specific few always outweigh the needs of the many. Because you can just assassinate the character of the many, poison the well and boom everyone has to agree with you, because if they don't they're bigoted, small minded, racist and or misogynist.
I think it goes something like that.
At least now it's only an issue about the proper bathroom and no one can argue that lila is forcing them, in that context, to look at her penis. Pretty sure the women's bathroom is 100% stalls. Would it kill people to tolerate her using the bathroom? Probably not, does it help her win sympathy when she labels 1/5th of her school as bigots? Probably not.
Is it insensitive to not describe me as a chicken if I identify, partially or fully, as a chicken? I really wish this was hyperbole. I'll grant this, it's not nearly as common as garden variety gender issues.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.
I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.
2015/09/03 00:16:47
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.
I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.
Someone get this published in a peer reviewed journal, we just canceled out decades of scientific research!
2015/09/03 00:20:00
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.
I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.
Someone get this published in a peer reviewed journal, we just canceled out decades of scientific research!
What are your thoughts on those who identify as gender fluid or gender queer?
as defined by google:
having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity; having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender); having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois); moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid); or.
gen·der·queer
ˈjendərˌkwi(ə)r/
adjective
adjective: gender-queer
1.
denoting or relating to a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders.
"the genderqueer community"
noun
noun: gender-queer
1.
a person who does not subscribe to conventional gender distinctions but identifies with neither, both, or a combination of male and female genders.
"a younger generation of self-proclaimed genderqueers explicitly reject ‘transgender’ as an identifier"
I think it's a bit of a trope at this point to put all the hate squarely on conservative shoulders. I'm the most liberal guy on the planet and this stuff leaves me very confused at best, it's hard to tell who is serious and who is taking a piss. I think I'm off the boat once we hit third genders or new pronouns, that's about where we get off the tolerance train and enter "are you fething kidding me?" land
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/09/03 00:26:20
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/09/03 00:24:54
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
@D-usa
What are you even saying? All I got from that was "yeah, no 'cause science". What exactly are you claiming science says? And what specifically is wrong about whatever thought it is that you disagree with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/03 00:25:54
2015/09/03 00:26:35
Subject: Re:ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/09/03 00:29:11
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: If there is any "pretending" going on it is by the person with a penis saying he is a girl.
I must admit that this pretty much sums up my opinion. You want to use the girls locker room? Go post-op or GTFO. Otherwise it's sexual harassment pure and simple.
Someone get this published in a peer reviewed journal, we just canceled out decades of scientific research!
What are your thoughts on those who identify as gender fluid or gender queer?
as defined by google:
having an overlap of, or indefinite lines between, gender identity; having two or more genders (being bigender, trigender, or pangender); having no gender (being agender, nongendered, genderless, genderfree or neutrois); moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity (genderfluid); or.
My thought, based on my understanding of the research that I have been exposed to, is that while there may well be people who "choose" to be gender fluid for various reasons, the majority of people who identify as a gender other than the one represented by their external sex characteristics do so because of hormonal and genetic differences leading their brain to have an identify that is different from the gender they express. There are many factors that result in separate gender development in different parts of the body which cause a person to look like a certain gender but who has a brain that really does not match up with that gender. Those people do not choose to be a different gender anymore than a person chooses to have depression. It is not a mental illness by any means, it's just a case where the brain does not match the body.
And while I am guilty of mixing the two issues at times in this thread myself, I do think that we would make progress if people could at least accept that being transgender is actually a real thing with a biological cause even if we disagree on how the school and other parts of society should deal with it.
2015/09/03 00:30:46
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
The issue is (and was) the utilization of the LOCKER ROOM by this person.
They were wanting to use the locker room before or after gym class.
Depending on the type of restroom...that wouldnt be an issue necessarily.
I am thinking that the dropping of gym class came *after* the protests (therefore in response to)....why else would the protestors and students would be quoted talking about the need for separate locker rooms (specifically) and *not* restrooms?
The only mention of restrooms came when 1) the school offered a restroom for this person to change in and 2) this person said they would ointinue using the girls' restroom for their toileting.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2015/09/03 00:32:40
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @D-usa
What are you even saying? All I got from that was "yeah, no 'cause science". What exactly are you claiming science says? And what specifically is wrong about whatever thought it is that you disagree with.
See above.
There are two issues that I disagree with.
One is the "well, unless you cut of your penis you are a guy" mindset and the possible related "transgender isn't a thing" issue. There is a definite biological cause of the brain not matching up to the body and no matter how we feel about how they look or, nothing will make the brain feel different.
The other is how we should deal with transgender people as a society (as in should they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).
2015/09/03 00:34:58
Subject: Re:ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
I am of the"separate but equal" camp opinion in this matter.
It protects all parties.
The TG student avoids opportunities for additional harassment, for example. Do you recall what it was like as a teen boy in the locker rooms....towel snapping...for example...lol.
It also protects other students from being forced to observe genitalia that they do not want to see.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2015/09/03 00:43:50
Subject: Re:ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
d-usa wrote: they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).
The gender they identify as, today...
Like I said, while there may well be some individuals who are a "girl" today as much as they are a "goth" today or a lifelong fan of "insert random crappy band" today the vast majority identify as their gender for the same reason that you identify as yours. A combination of their physical appearance together with their lifelong exposure to hormones produced by their body due to genetics as well as the body of their mother (with some research even pointing to hormone levels at the time that sperm are produced having an impact) and maybe even environmental hormones all of which have acted on their brain and body to cause a person to form that particular identity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheMeanDM wrote: I am of the"separate but equal" camp opinion in this matter.
It protects all parties.
The TG student avoids opportunities for additional harassment, for example. Do you recall what it was like as a teen boy in the locker rooms....towel snapping...for example...lol.
It also protects other students from being forced to observe genitalia that they do not want to see.
On the other hand the student that just moved into the school district, who due to age and/or hormone treatment has the external appearance of the gender that they identify as except for their genitals, and who would simply go into the [gender] bathroom, close the bathroom stall, sit down and do their business, cover their genital areas with clothing, and then exit the bathroom without exposing their genitalia and without being exposed to anyone else's genitalia, is now exposed as a transgender person because he is forced to use the transgender bathroom and which creates the opportunity for harassment that wouldn't have existed if no other student would have known that the person is transgender.
Creating a transgender restroom can create more risks than it removes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/03 00:49:51
2015/09/03 00:55:19
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
TheMeanDM wrote: I am curious to know what research you have looked at which shows that TG people are different biologically and genetically.
Honestly, lots. I know that is not a great answer and I apologize for that. It's just lots of different papers that I have come across during the past decade between school and work as well as just keeping up with various journals for professional development.
2015/09/03 01:04:59
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
There are risks and benefits to BOTH your position and mine.
I would be VERY curious to know the extended history of this person and what they did in the past.
Since 13 they have identified as a girl.
How have they gotten along with other students up until this point? Has there been mostly support or mostly ridicule?
Is this the first year they took gym?
Has there been a precedent of this person in the same-sex locker room over the past 4 years?
I wish we could dig deeper.
Because of this person has been changing in the LOCKER ROOM all these 4 years...then why the fuss now?
I suspect that this has never happened before though. That this person has not changed in the same pocker room. Perhaps used the same bathroom...but I bet dollars to donuts that they are stalls with doors.
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2015/09/03 01:22:43
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
TheMeanDM wrote: There are risks and benefits to BOTH your position and mine.
Agreed.
I would be VERY curious to know the extended history of this person and what they did in the past.
Since 13 they have identified as a girl.
How have they gotten along with other students up until this point? Has there been mostly support or mostly ridicule?
I would wonder if up until 13 there really was that much difference between being a boy or a girl to her or the friends. Kids know that there are difference between boy or girls, but prior to the traditional puberty age I wonder if anyone really had much of their identify associated with it. But 13 seems prime puberty age, where sexuality and gender usually start to become an issue and things get "weird" for pretty much everyone.
Is this the first year they took gym?
Has there been a precedent of this person in the same-sex locker room over the past 4 years?
Good question.
I wish we could dig deeper.
Because of this person has been changing in the LOCKER ROOM all these 4 years...then why the fuss now?
It doesn't say in the story, but I wonder if maybe they changed schools? I would think it would mention it in the story if she did, but it seems like this could be the right age to jump from middle school to high school, or junior high to senior high. And the timing seems prime for "just started class what the hell is going on with this kid" scenarios if nobody else has ever dealt with this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/03 01:24:09
2015/09/03 01:25:21
Subject: Re:ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
"Lila Perry, the 17-year-old at the center of the debate, reportedly identified as a gay male until she was 13 and publicly came out as transgender in February. She previously used a gender-neutral faculty bathroom but began changing in the girls’ locker room this school year before her physical education class."
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2015/09/03 02:27:33
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
d-usa wrote: There is a definite biological cause of the brain not matching up to the body and no matter how we feel about how they look or, nothing will make the brain feel different.
You know where else biology comes into play? A person's body. I could say I'm a wiener dog but that doesn't make it so. Why? Biology.
d-usa wrote: The other is how we should deal with transgender people as a society (as in should they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).
Identity =/= biology no matter how you try to distort the issue. If a man wants to call himself a woman and dress in women's' clothes and wear makeup, that's his prerogative. Still, I am not in any way obligated to participate in the charade - and that's where the crux of the problem is, isn't it? Either I participate or the force of law be brought down upon me like God smiting the unbeliever. The answer is no.
2015/09/03 02:28:04
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @D-usa
What are you even saying? All I got from that was "yeah, no 'cause science". What exactly are you claiming science says? And what specifically is wrong about whatever thought it is that you disagree with.
See above.
There are two issues that I disagree with.
One is the "well, unless you cut of your penis you are a guy" mindset and the possible related "transgender isn't a thing" issue. There is a definite biological cause of the brain not matching up to the body and no matter how we feel about how they look or, nothing will make the brain feel different.
The other is how we should deal with transgender people as a society (as in should they be able to shower and participate in things with other members of the gender that they identify as).
Your previous post makes sense and I largely agree with what you are saying there. I tried to make clear in my post that I believe, accept as true and don't challenge the assertion that a person's brain chemestry can cause them to identify as a gender that is different from their biological sex. What I was saying is that "if" someone is pretending something, it is more the person who says my penis doesn't mean something, that the person who says it does. This isn't to say that the person is in fact pretending, just trying to draw a contrast. Their brain is telling them that they are a girl even though they are able to produce sperm and procreate as a male rather than as a female, and have male chromosomes rather than female chromosomes or in other words every cell in their body has male not female characteristics. To say this person is not male, but female is at best an oversimplification.
Telling people that they are wrong, biggoted or irrational (not saying those are your words or position) because they accept as true that which is in fact true, i.e. that the person's body is that of a male is not a rationally supportable position as far as I'm concerned. The physiology does impact who they are, what they can do and how their body functions and people shouldn't be asked to pretend otherwise. Their brain chemestry has an affect as well, and people should be sensitive to that. Saying 'you're a boy, deal with it" isn't a real effective or humane response.
Males (by sex) who identify as males (by gender) are not treated the same in every situation as women (by sex) who identify as women (by gender). Other people fall into neither of these categories and trying to shoehorn them into one or the other in every situation deferring only to their desires is not an appropriate solution. Restrooms are tricky because if we expand beyond male/female where does that stop? We need one for boys who identify as girls, one for girls who identify as boys, one for boys who identify as boys, one for girls who identify as girls, one for girls who identify as neither, one for girls who identify as both... Where does that end? Two solutions seem to me most practical. First have restrooms and showers give three options, (1) boys (gender & sex), (2) girls (gender & sex) and (3) inclusive (anyone who isn't bogged down by one category or the other). This lets people support the people who don't fit neatly in one specific category and protects the privacy of people who don't want to mix in that setting. If you don't want to sit next to a transgender in class, too bad. The other solution is just have every stall, shower, etc totally enclosed and available to anyone. No privacy problems for anyone and the transgender persons aren't forced into an awkward situation. I don't like this last solution as it is wildly inefficient (men with man bits get in and out much faster than ladies with lady parts and significantly more space would be required).
Making girls be in a situation where someone with a penis gets to see their boobies, ass and lady nest and expose them to his (using the pronoun referring to sex not gender) penis is not a decent solution.
As far as surgery as some sort of litmus test, I would not support that. My position is that anyone who takes steps to adopt an appearance that matches their gender, and mask their sex should inform people who may be in some sort of intimate situation about their physiological origins. To hide this and allow that person to expose themselves in some intimate way is a violation of that person's privacy and should be completely unacceptable. People get this if a boy who really likes girls dresses up as a girl to get access to them when they otherwise would not allow it. And hey, if the girls don't know he's a boy and never find out, no harm, no foul right. But if the boy doesn't like girls and instead thinks of himself as one, it is now ok the see them undressed without their voluntary knowing consent. Not buying that. Outside of limited, intimate situations though it shouldn't matter whether they have had surgery or haven't, are taking horomones or aren't, dress like one gender or another or don't.
2015/09/03 03:02:58
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
Women don't dissolve into a puddle of goo upon seeing a penis. I promise. Their bodily integrity will remain intact, even if for some reason they're snooping under the stalls with their phones or whatever.
Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.
I don't know if it's worth touching on this, but your genitals don't really have anything significant to do with your gender. For example, I have gone wargaming with a whole bunch of guys. I know they are guys because of how they present their gender to me. For the most part I haven't seen their genitals, yet I am still able to determine that they are guys.
What is funny is the thread has the threat precisely backwards. Girls are not going to dissolve upon seeing the penis of another girl. That girl, though, would now be at risk of having her gender identity invalidated, positioning her as either really a boy or as an inhuman "thing," "it," subject to ostracisation, violence or murder. The one who is actually at risk here is the trans girl, and she's the one who needs protection.
2015/09/03 03:12:52
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.
Misogyny, haha. Sure it all ties down to hatred of women, suuuuuuuuure.
We had some trans kids at school and it was not the "masculine men" who attacked them but petty girls. It was also girls who were responsible for all the suicides that occurred when I was at school. It has nothing to do with masculinity, or a hatred of women at all.
Please explain how a hatred of women has anything to do with transsexuals? All the girls who tried to be guys at school got made fun of by other girls. Did those girls hate themselves?
Google "fragile masculinity" and it floods your screen with tumblr links. You may want to lay off that site for anything worth learning.
2015/09/03 03:38:07
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.
Misogyny, haha. Sure it all ties down to hatred of women, suuuuuuuuure.
We had some trans kids at school and it was not the "masculine men" who attacked them but petty girls. It was also girls who were responsible for all the suicides that occurred when I was at school. It has nothing to do with masculinity, or a hatred of women at all.
Please explain how a hatred of women has anything to do with transsexuals? All the girls who tried to be guys at school got made fun of by other girls. Did those girls hate themselves?
Google "fragile masculinity" and it floods your screen with tumblr links. You may want to lay off that site for anything worth learning.
I don't use tumblr.
Anyway, it's a complex topic. A lot of transphobia stems from gender essentialism. Part of this is the notion that men are the universal combatant and women are the universal non-combatant. Then, since trans girls are "really" boys, they're actually the universal combatant pretending to be the universal non-combatant - they're the fox in the henhouse. You'll notice this hoopla doesn't occur over trans men using the men's bathroom.
You should get an inkling that something is up just from how much attention gets paid to trans women vs trans men. Why would a man want to be a woman? It doesn't make sense. Our society glorifies the masculine over the feminine - it "makes sense" for a woman to want to be like a man, even if we regard it as somewhat pitiable at the same time. When a man wants to "be like" a woman it makes a lie of the whole system.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Women don't dissolve into a puddle of goo upon seeing a penis. I promise. Their bodily integrity will remain intact, even if for some reason they're snooping under the stalls with their phones or whatever.
Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.
I don't know if it's worth touching on this, but your genitals don't really have anything significant to do with your gender. For example, I have gone wargaming with a whole bunch of guys. I know they are guys because of how they present their gender to me. For the most part I haven't seen their genitals, yet I am still able to determine that they are guys.
What is funny is the thread has the threat precisely backwards. Girls are not going to dissolve upon seeing the penis of another girl. That girl, though, would now be at risk of having her gender identity invalidated, positioning her as either really a boy or as an inhuman "thing," "it," subject to ostracisation, violence or murder. The one who is actually at risk here is the trans girl, and she's the one who needs protection.
And if girls, as in this case, have a problem, what then? Kind of shoots down your theory about the being about men and their silly ways. Or are you saying the girls only feel that way because men told them to thereby contradicting yourself by suggesting that they are in fact weak and unable to think for themselves. No one is suggesting women will melt into a pile of goo and I doubt anyone really thinks that. Women are objecting as they do when men who identify as men try to enter their restrooms and showers. For them your identity isn't as important as your bits and if you want to invade what is supposed to be a semi-private secure place for them when they don't want it, you are the problem. I don't want a woman that identifies as a man using the same restrooms and showers as I do at the same time as I use them. And it isn't because I'm afraid I'll be attracted to her/him or she/he to me. For me, in my head, my gender and the girl by sex boy by gender don't have the same gender because for me it is a combination of sex and gender. So why does her/his head cannon (to borrow some nerd/gaming lingo) have more validity than mine. Why am I forced to accept an invasion of my privacy especially if there is an alternative available where no one's privacy is invaded?
Saying that because you aren't a prototypical boy or girl is not saying you are therefore a thing. People have all sorts of different ways of identifying themselves that don't fit neatly into one of two categories. So focus on expanding ideas to there being other options instead of pigeonholing people into categories that don't make a lot of sense like this person with a penis is actually a girl, end of discussion. At minimum you have sex and identity which may or may not match. In other cases you have indeterminate sex and identity and have characteristics of biological males and females and identify as both as well. That don't fit neatly into a box, but such a person is still a human being worthy of dignity and respect. Plenty of people will be fine with honesty and openness about it. Its when people start saying you must accept my version of reality as your version of reality and say I'm a girl and treat me as one in every situation even if there are some where that doesn't work for you, that widespread resentment, non-acceptance or whatever will manifest.
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I use her/him, he/she etc not to be derogatory but to speak about both sex and gender at the same time as they are both relevant to the point being made.
2015/09/03 04:06:20
Subject: ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Most of the rest of this stuff stems from people trying to invalidate her identity in one way or another. That is pretty messed up, as that stuff is behind a lot of violence committed against trans people - the notion that they are "really" the other gender. A lot of it ties into misogyny, homophobia and fragile masculinity in really interesting ways.
Misogyny, haha. Sure it all ties down to hatred of women, suuuuuuuuure.
We had some trans kids at school and it was not the "masculine men" who attacked them but petty girls. It was also girls who were responsible for all the suicides that occurred when I was at school. It has nothing to do with masculinity, or a hatred of women at all.
Please explain how a hatred of women has anything to do with transsexuals? All the girls who tried to be guys at school got made fun of by other girls. Did those girls hate themselves?
Google "fragile masculinity" and it floods your screen with tumblr links. You may want to lay off that site for anything worth learning.
I don't use tumblr.
Anyway, it's a complex topic. A lot of transphobia stems from gender essentialism. Part of this is the notion that men are the universal combatant and women are the universal non-combatant. Then, since trans girls are "really" boys, they're actually the universal combatant pretending to be the universal non-combatant - they're the fox in the henhouse. You'll notice this hoopla doesn't occur over trans men using the men's bathroom.
You should get an inkling that something is up just from how much attention gets paid to trans women vs trans men. Why would a man want to be a woman? It doesn't make sense. Our society glorifies the masculine over the feminine - it "makes sense" for a woman to want to be like a man, even if we regard it as somewhat pitiable at the same time. When a man wants to "be like" a woman it makes a lie of the whole system.
I had a really long answer based of my experiences growing up and recently leaving education (dad saw no gays/lesbians growing up, I can count more than 10 not including those who change their gender, very different trends today) etc but it is all anecdotal. I will scrap it, have a read and maybe come back. Nice answer to my snarky reply though (sorry about that).
I do disagree it has anything to do with a hatred of women. I find it hard to believe anyone who is a man can hate a women. In fact i disagree with most of what you just said, but I will come back after some reading.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/03 04:08:19
