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 Polonius wrote:
Interesting. It seems like a bit of an overreaction, because nothing says "You're not wanted" than 150 people staging a protest, but this is going to end the same way it's ended everywhere else.

Virtually every adjudicator has held that sexual identity is not based on physical characteristics, and that a bona fide identity as one gender is enough to be classified as that gender.

The question is: can a person decide their gender. I don't mean on a whim, but can a person make the statement "I'm a female" and hold others to it? The answer increasingly seems to be yes, they can.

In my Experiance, Yes, that is how many people belive it is, the second you decide you are another gender, you are entitled to all the other things the opposite sex deserves.
Heck, I kno people who decide they are Neutral and suddenly demands to be called "Zie"

 Polonius wrote:
with the fairly major exception of not taking into account the students identity.

My hope would be a professional took a long hard look at said identity and judged it genuine though. My problem is giving everyone the benefit of the doubt out of fear or being made out to be the bad guy/bully/bigot. I also am suspicious of any teenage truly knowing who they are yet. For every self assured old soul you'll have some where it may have been more of a phase. Confusion may seem cliche'd but speaking only for myself I didn't really know who I was until my early 20's.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
with the fairly major exception of not taking into account the students identity.

My hope would be a professional took a long hard look at said identity and judged it genuine though. My problem is giving everyone the benefit of the doubt out of fear or being made out to be the bad guy/bully/bigot. I also am suspicious of any teenage truly knowing who they are yet. For every self assured old soul you'll have some where it amy have been more of a phase. Confusion may seem cliche'd but speaking only for myself I didn't really know who I was until my early 20's.

I don't know much about child transsexuality. Okay, I don't know anything. But from everything I've seen, people generally don't come back from going Trans. it's usually a one way trip.

don't confuse it with dressing like a freak/goth/emo/glam/whatever kids are doing today. That can (and should) be a phase. But 16 year olds that think they're gay, or actually a woman? Probably are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tacking onto Crablezworth's point: would people's view changed if the student in question had seen a psychologist, who verified that gender reassignment was appropriate, and that being treated as a boy would be psychologically harmful?

 Polonius wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I'd say harm as I am not in a position to judge, and frankly I doubt any of us are.

And that's fair. The context of separate facilities, especially for bathrooms, makes sense because the plumbing is different.

The idea that there are anti-peeping laws makes sense, although I'm curious why its okay for a girl to change next to girls with vaginas, but not a girl with a penis.

Its not a girl with a penis. Its a boy who is claiming he is a girl.

This person may be genuinely confused and think he is a member of the opposite sex, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still a boy. I can self identify as a watermelon, but that doesn't make me a watermelon. The only way to be completely unbiased is to separate everyone by what is actually between your legs. Whats that? You say you are uncomfortable changing in the guys locker room? Well too bad, 90% of the other boys are uncomfortable with it too. I'd rather you just be uncomfortable than deal with the problem of opening up the girl's locker room to any boy who wants to claim he's actually a girl, giving him free reign to get some panty shots, or vice verse.

This is truly one of those situations where I honestly am not sure how to go about it and all sides come out fine with the decision. The school offering her a private room is what I think would be the best course of action. However that also excludes the girl and singles her out because she's transgendered.


And it gets even worse since she chose not to use the private room. I'm just going to put my hands up and calmly walk away lol

 Polonius wrote:


Most transsexuals don't get surgery. Many use hormone therapy, but gender reassignment surgery isn't all that common, because the side effects and potential complications are horrible, and the upside is pretty marginal. (plastic surgeons are good, but not that good).

And not all transgender people are a choice. There are dozens of recognized syndromes which someone is biologically between genders or even the wrong gender.

I grew up with a kid who was male in all respects but due to Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, his body couldn't absorb testosterone in the womb so he had a vagina. While his young childhood was hard, they identified it early and he did most of his school years as a boy. When he hit puberty he filled out as a male like you wouldn't believe. His doctor was right and did more than the 'you have a vagina, put a bow on it' treatment so many people get.

Based on 'junk-checks', he would be forced to shower in the girls locker room even though he was a man who was attracted to women.

He got through it because literally 'no one cared', and he kept his privates 'private' in the bathroom. I still talk to him once in a while, and while he never thought of himself as transgender, due to the ramp-up in bigotry, he has had to identify more due to the gross ignorance and bigotry out there against people who fall between the cracks and have medical issues with their gender. Not everyone is choosing a gender identity. 1/20000 have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. And that is simply one out of dozens of syndromes out there which impact people in the Transgender community.

 Polonius wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
It would seem asking the kid with a penis to change/shower with other kids with penises makes that one kid uncomfortable. Allowing the kid with a penis to change/shower with a bunch of kids with vaginas makes a bunch of kids uncomfortable.

Seems making it clear 'This is the shower room for kids with a penis, and this is the shower room for kids with a vagina' is not that hard to do. There are likely kids belonging in both rooms that, at this age, are uncomfortable with their bodies/bodies of others. At least keeping the body parts allowed in each room consistent is gonna help a lot more of them.

I think this is probably the clearest boiling down of the issue, with the fairly major exception of not taking into account the students identity. You also have the reality that transwomen are sexually assaulted (by men) at a shockingly high rate, while transwomen do not sexually assault ciswomen very much at all.

It does take into account the kid's identity. It is 'kid with a penis'. There may be kids with a penis attracted to other kids with a penis, and there may be kids with a vagina attracted to kids with a vagina, and there may be kids with a penis that wish they had a vagina and vice versa. Makes no difference. 'This is the room where kids with a penis change/shower, and this is the room kids with a vagina change/shower' treats them ALL equally and with respect on a policy level, and admittance to the appropriate room is based on an easily verifiable parameter. It is no worse to tell Kid with a Penis to deal with other kids with penises than it is to tell kids with vaginas to deal with this particular Kid With a Penis.

The 'Kid With A Penis may be bullied' is a cop out. The school should be preventing bullying or punishing it when they cannot. Kid with a tiny penis probably worries about being bullied too. He has to deal with it and the school has to protect him, as it must protect all the kids. Letting Kid With A Penis be a special butterfly at the expense of the comfort of kids with vaginas is NOT gonna lessen the probability of bullying, and I suspect, based on the fact it is pissing people off enough they are protesting, will exacerbate the bullying tendencies of others.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way to be completely unbiased is to separate everyone by what is actually between your legs.

Too bad Medical science has proven you 100% totally wrong with all of the people born in-between genders or with opposite genitals to their gender. Real medical conditions based upon real science.

 KingCracker wrote:
This is truly one of those situations where I honestly am not sure how to go about it and all sides come out fine with the decision. The school offering her a private room is what I think would be the best course of action. However that also excludes the girl and singles her out because she's transgendered.


And it gets even worse since she chose not to use the private room. I'm just going to put my hands up and calmly walk away lol

You and me both.

nkelsch wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way to be completely unbiased is to separate everyone by what is actually between your legs.

Too bad Medical science has proven you 100% totally wrong with all of the people born in-between genders or with opposite genitals to their gender. Real medical conditions based upon real science.

I suppose we should always make accommodations to the freak accidents that only occur extremely rarely? You don't base decisions on the needs of a minority that is so freakishly rare that 95% of people will never even hear about, much less actually have to deal with.

 Frazzled wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
This is truly one of those situations where I honestly am not sure how to go about it and all sides come out fine with the decision. The school offering her a private room is what I think would be the best course of action. However that also excludes the girl and singles her out because she's transgendered.


And it gets even worse since she chose not to use the private room. I'm just going to put my hands up and calmly walk away lol

You and me both.

Indeed.

Maybe we need Trump to make that private bathroom so Luxurious™ and So Fantastic™, that everyone would want to use it.

Problem solved.

I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

I give that solution 5 seconds before you have angry parents of all the girls at school who get their showers video taped by the boy showering next to them.

That just creates an even bigger problem than you solved.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

I give that solution 5 seconds before you have angry parents of all the girls at school who get their showers video taped by the boy showering next to them.

That just creates an even bigger problem than you solved.

Yes but it could also be someone of an undefined gender doing the taping or being taped, so it's progress. Or something.



Maybe some sort of locking mechanism on the door could solve this dilemma.

If no one is ashamed of there bodies then it wouldn't be such a problem.

More like regression just so a tiny insignificant portion of the population can feel slightly better about not being normal, while the overwhelming majority is negatively impacted.

My YT embedding skills seem to be off today, so here's the link to it, you can see some coverage and the student in question as well as opinions of the community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp8p2DAK_DA

Cliffs: Skip to 0:45 to see the kid rant about knowing what others are feeling.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Heck, I kno people who decide they are Neutral and suddenly demands to be called "Zie"

Which is a little absurd, IMO.

 Grey Templar wrote:
More like regression just so a tiny insignificant portion of the population can feel slightly better about not being normal, while the overwhelming majority is negatively impacted.

If I ever make anyone uncomfortable, I just make sure to call them a bigot. Reducing people is an important step in ignoring how they feel.

Depends what the 'private bathroom' was. Typically, the only such bathrooms are disabled toilets, and maybe it's understandable why you may not feel that appropriate as a changing room.

I find it suspect that some 'family members' of the children had joined the protest. What's their involvement? Who actually incited this protest? This child has identified as female for four years yet now it's an issue to protest?

It's my experience that children can be very accepting of different people, especially the younger ones. Intolerance really does land at the feet of parents. Though I do feel that there are obvious reasons as to why teenage girls don't like to be seen undressed by boys, and simply saying 'but this boy identifies as a woman' doesn't make that much easier. It doesn't make them bigots either, lots of people are not comfortable with being seen naked when they feel at their most vulnerable, especially children. There are biological and social reasons why being seen naked, especially by members of the opposite sex is intimidating or worrying, in a way you can't just switch off in your head because someone tells you they are female when you eyes tell you they are male.

 Grey Templar wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way to be completely unbiased is to separate everyone by what is actually between your legs.

Too bad Medical science has proven you 100% totally wrong with all of the people born in-between genders or with opposite genitals to their gender. Real medical conditions based upon real science.

I suppose we should always make accommodations to the freak accidents that only occur extremely rarely? You don't base decisions on the needs of a minority that is so freakishly rare that 95% of people will never even hear about, much less actually have to deal with.

Nice... compound exposed ignorance of sweeping statements based upon bigotry and what you get is further discounting of minorities and abusing of rights for no apparent reason.

Nice for you to determine what god-created medical syndromes count as 'freak accidents' with your medical training. How do you tell someone they don't belong in society due to a 'freak accident'.

Discounting and marginalizing minority populations based upon no legitimate reason is a bad thing in society and leads to lots of bad consequences...

 Crablezworth wrote:
I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

Like camp restrooms at a state park (or somewhat like BSG's rooms eh?) . I could see that, if it really became an issue.

Thats what we call "reaching".

I never said you don't belong in society. Nobody is marginalizing you. You are the one demanding that society make concessions, and haven't given any good reason as to why.

And yes, they are freak accidents of biology. I really do feel sympathy for someone who got screwed by some random mutation that ruined such an important part of being human. But demanding that society's normal gender divisions make accommodation for you is silly. This isn't comparable to racial segregation, stop trying to make it so. Its not anywhere close to the same level.

 Desubot wrote:


If no one is ashamed of there bodies then it wouldn't be such a problem.

yes if only we readjust all of society there would be no greed, no crime, no poverty. You know who else thought that way?

Stalin! or was it Jebus yes JEBUS! Do you really want to be like...that?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

Like camp restrooms at a state park (or somewhat like BSG's rooms eh?) . I could see that, if it really became an issue.

Apparently, it is an issue.

 Grey Templar wrote:
This isn't comparable to racial segregation, stop trying to make it so. Its not anywhere close to the same level.

Too bad the courts disagree with you and a majority of states have already resolved the issue by protecting the minority instead of marginalizing them. In this story, this particular state is behind the times... sounds like time for another supreme court decision for states which can't handle being part of civilized society to have a federal ruling to force them in line.

And nothing bad has happened and no one is upset about it... except bigots.

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I truly think the solution is one change room, with many stalls with individual showers. Problem solved, no one gets to see anyone's bits. The world turns.

Like camp restrooms at a state park (or somewhat like BSG's rooms eh?) . I could see that, if it really became an issue.

Apparently, it is an issue.

i like the idea actually. That would help with a lot of the Jr. High angst, and helps keep people like me from roaming the hall smacking people with our overly large bellies undtil they give us their money.

Ignorance and/or fear of something different is the same no matter what you are ignorant and/or fearful about.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/woman-allergic-to-wi-fi-receives-disability-173349871.html

Anyone not believing this women is suffering is a monster and a bigot and a misogynist, the only acceptable thing for society to do is classify skepticism and criticism as bullying and harassment. The end.

nkelsch wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
This isn't comparable to racial segregation, stop trying to make it so. Its not anywhere close to the same level.

Too bad the courts disagree with you and a majority of states have already resolved the issue by protecting the minority instead of marginalizing them. In this story, this particular state is behind the times... sounds like time for another supreme court decision for states which can't handle being part of civilized society to have a federal ruling to force them in line.

And nothing bad has happened and no one is upset about it... except bigots.

You just love to assume everyone who opposes you is a bigot. Just lets you shut down the argument. Likely because you are afraid you'll have to make some concessions.