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 Crablezworth wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


As well there's an issue of what could be considered a form of segregation--"You say you're not a boy, but you're not a girl either so go shuffle off to this 'private' bathroom".

We already segregate by gender, creating a third gender shouldn't make some more equal than others. Declaring myself a potato shouldn't allow me to change in the kitchen in addition to either lockeroom.

Here's my issue with what is otherwise a good stance to take:
Do you truly believe that someone needs to undergo sex reassignment surgery if they feel they were attracted to the same sex and identify as the opposite sex?
So if a boy is born a boy, identifies as female and is attracted to only males--do they need to undergo sex reassignment surgery?

"Third gender" is a concept which has been around for a fairly long time, just never really been accepted.

 Polonius wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I realize that trans issues a big thing now... but, where's the consideration for these other girls?

The question is, and I'm not being rhetorical, "how are they harmed?"

And I'm not sure. I've never been a high school girl, and I'm not sure to what extent they are harmed by this.

How are they not harmed. There are separate facilities for a reason. Like it or not he's still a bio he. Fix that and I can't see an issue.

That's not good enough. How, specifically, is a girl harmed by having a biologically male, but female identifying, individual in her locker room? I get that she might see a penis, but is that harmful?

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

 whembly wrote:
This school is in a no win situation here and requiring a trans to use a unisex private bathroom is the best compromise here.

I somewhat agree, but only in practice.

In theory, I agree with the idea that making a transfemale use a unisex bathroom is a very public statement by the school that she isn't a girl. Toss in the bushels of baggage that tend to go with being trans, such as increased harassment, bullying, and sexual assault, its really crappy to be told that you're different and not really what you think you are.

In practice, I really hate when people make principled stands instead of taking a pretty decent compromise. (And yes, I'm checking my privilege) The student is making a legal case out of something that frankly, she could have dealt with. Now, the response by the student body, which is super crappy, makes me feel more sympathetic, but this isn't going to end well for anybody.

Yes - no winners here.

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


As well there's an issue of what could be considered a form of segregation--"You say you're not a boy, but you're not a girl either so go shuffle off to this 'private' bathroom".

We already segregate by gender, creating a third gender shouldn't make some more equal than others. Declaring myself a potato shouldn't allow me to change in the kitchen in addition to either lockeroom.

Here's my issue with what is otherwise a good stance to take:
Do you truly believe that someone needs to undergo sex reassignment surgery if they feel they were attracted to the same sex and identify as the opposite sex?
So if a boy is born a boy, identifies as female and is attracted to only males--do they need to undergo sex reassignment surgery?

"Third gender" is a concept which has been around for a fairly long time, just never really been accepted.

I'm all for no segregation at all. I don't really care. That one big shower for starship troopers? Bring it on! Gender is either entirely a social construct, or it has some pretty specific biological underpinnings. I would tend towards the biology side of things. I'm sure in this future utopia, hr departments and complaints of sexual harassment will be things of the past. Biology likely also explains homosexuality, and that's good, because it shoves it in the face of all those ignorant hyper religious bastards that who you love and who you are attracted to is not a choice.

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

That the challenges of a genetic-girl growing up is different than the challenges of a genetic-male growing up?

Puberty is distinctly different...

Social Pressures is distinctly different...

Then add the additional challenges of being trans.

IMO, this isn't a case where the school is maliciously "segregating" a trans, ala Jim Crowisms.

There is no need for a 3rd 'sex' bathroom, she identifies as female, not a 3rd gender.

Those who object to sharing with her should overcome their prejudices or stop using the facilities. Same as those who objected to sharing facilities with people of different skin color or ethnicity.

'being this way is much more than a wig and a dress' - totally, it's about personal identification according to how you feel, rather than ostracizing this young woman because how she feels is different to the majority viewpoint.

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

That the challenges of a genetic-girl growing up is different than the challenges of a genetic-male growing up?

Puberty is distinctly different...

Social Pressures is distinctly different...

Then add the additional challenges of being trans.

IMO, this isn't a case where the school is maliciously "segregating" a trans, ala Jim Crowisms.

That's all great. I totally get that.

What is the harm?

Look, I want to nip this in the bud. I don't want a wang chilling my a girl's locker room. But I've got plenty of evidence that denying a person their identity is harmful, so my question has to become: is there a harm to cis-women changing with a trans-woman?

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

Like you I have never been a teenage girl, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn overnight. However, in light of the cost and expense of separate facilities across the country nad the many jurisdictions where there is potential criminal liability for snooping on such, I'd proffer there is a historically recognized harm here.

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

That the challenges of a genetic-girl growing up is different than the challenges of a genetic-male growing up?

Puberty is distinctly different...

Social Pressures is distinctly different...

Then add the additional challenges of being trans.

IMO, this isn't a case where the school is maliciously "segregating" a trans, ala Jim Crowisms.

That's all great. I totally get that.

What is the harm?

Look, I want to nip this in the bud. I don't want a wang chilling my a girl's locker room. But I've got plenty of evidence that denying a person their identity is harmful, so my question has to become: is there a harm to cis-women changing with a trans-woman?

To answer you question: The Hilsboro girls seems to think so. Do they have any say?

Is it me, that this is the same as Tropic Thunder's Kirk Lazarus getting his skin chemically tinted and acting like understand what it’s like to be black?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
There is no need for a 3rd 'sex' bathroom, she identifies as female, not a 3rd gender.

Those who object to sharing with her should overcome their prejudices or stop using the facilities. Same as those who objected to sharing facilities with people of different skin color or ethnicity.

'being this way is much more than a wig and a dress' - totally, it's about personal identification according to how you feel, rather than ostracizing this young woman because how she feels is different to the majority viewpoint.

So the rights of the many are obliterated by the one. Spock would not be happy with you.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

Like you I have never been a teenage girl, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn overnight. However, in light of the cost and expense of separate facilities across the country nad the many jurisdictions where there is potential criminal liability for snooping on such, I'd proffer there is a historically recognized harm here.

"Harm" or "traditional standards of modesty"...?

If the gender neutral facilities exist, but only one student is using them are they truly gender neutral?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
There is no need for a 3rd 'sex' bathroom, she identifies as female, not a 3rd gender.

Those who object to sharing with her should overcome their prejudices or stop using the facilities. Same as those who objected to sharing facilities with people of different skin color or ethnicity.

'being this way is much more than a wig and a dress' - totally, it's about personal identification according to how you feel, rather than ostracizing this young woman because how she feels is different to the majority viewpoint.

Shouldn't we just get rid of segregation of sexes entirely? I mean, it seems so antiquated.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
There is no need for a 3rd 'sex' bathroom, she identifies as female, not a 3rd gender.

Those who object to sharing with her should overcome their prejudices or stop using the facilities. Same as those who objected to sharing facilities with people of different skin color or ethnicity.

'being this way is much more than a wig and a dress' - totally, it's about personal identification according to how you feel, rather than ostracizing this young woman because how she feels is different to the majority viewpoint.

So the rights of the many are obliterated by the one. Spock would not be happy with you.

Spock would logically concede that on certain occasions, the many are a pack of scum...

 whembly wrote:
[
To answer you question: The Hilsboro girls seems to think so. Do they have any say?

They do, as long as there is a harm, and not simply a preference. It's not like teenagers ever exaggerate their problems or anything.

Look, I want to be on the side of the school. I want to say, "hey, we're sorry, but having you change with the girls won't work for us, because..." I just need the "because." I'll admit that I'm weirded out by transsexuality. It's icky. But I also know that it beats the alternative, which is having people live in an identity they don't relate to, which comes with a high psychological toll. I'm, through force of will alone, trying to be an ally to trans people. So I really can see both sides here.

What I'd like, is some tangible, actual reason to disallow a transwoman from changing in the girls locker room.

Feth it all gender bathrooms or no bathrooms for anyone.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
There is no need for a 3rd 'sex' bathroom, she identifies as female, not a 3rd gender.

Those who object to sharing with her should overcome their prejudices or stop using the facilities. Same as those who objected to sharing facilities with people of different skin color or ethnicity.

'being this way is much more than a wig and a dress' - totally, it's about personal identification according to how you feel, rather than ostracizing this young woman because how she feels is different to the majority viewpoint.

Shouldn't we just get rid of segregation of sexes entirely? I mean, it seems so antiquated.

You are such a Boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

If we're all mature people... no, it's not harmful.

But, lemme ask you a questions: Do you believe that the trials and tribulations of normal girls are unique to boys? And vice versa?

I'm not sure what you're asking there, and you may have used the wrong term.

Like you I have never been a teenage girl, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn overnight. However, in light of the cost and expense of separate facilities across the country nad the many jurisdictions where there is potential criminal liability for snooping on such, I'd proffer there is a historically recognized harm here.

"Harm" or "traditional standards of modesty"...?

If the gender neutral facilities exist, but only one student is using them are they truly gender neutral?

I'd say harm as I am not in a position to judge, and frankly I doubt any of us are.

Can we also do something about the idea that anybody is supposed to "comfortable" while changing in a high school locker room?

I'm a biological male that identifies as a male, and it was not exactly a picnic for me.

Guilty as charged

Spock would logically concede that on certain occasions, the many are a pack of scum...

He would, but then he'd give you the old nerve zap so you would never remember having bested him.

Spock's not smart, he's just sneaky...

Here's the problem: what's going to stop straight guys by identifying as females so that they can hang out in the girls locker room and bathroom? I would definitely not put this past some of the kids I went to high school with if all it took was a wig and a declaration. If I was a parent of a female, I'd be disturbed.

That aside, call me old fashioned, but I think penises in one room and vaginas in another make the most sense.

It would seem asking the kid with a penis to change/shower with other kids with penises makes that one kid uncomfortable. Allowing the kid with a penis to change/shower with a bunch of kids with vaginas makes a bunch of kids uncomfortable.

Seems making it clear 'This is the shower room for kids with a penis, and this is the shower room for kids with a vagina' is not that hard to do. There are likely kids belonging in both rooms that, at this age, are uncomfortable with their bodies/bodies of others. At least keeping the body parts allowed in each room consistent is gonna help a lot more of them.

Neutral gendered bathrooms and changing rooms in a high school.

I just don't see that going well.

 Frazzled wrote:

I'd say harm as I am not in a position to judge, and frankly I doubt any of us are.

And that's fair. The context of separate facilities, especially for bathrooms, makes sense because the plumbing is different.

The idea that there are anti-peeping laws makes sense, although I'm curious why its okay for a girl to change next to girls with vaginas, but not a girl with a penis.

 Polonius wrote:
Can we also do something about the idea that anybody is supposed to "comfortable" while changing in a high school locker room?

I'm a biological male that identifies as a male, and it was not exactly a picnic for me.

Agreed, and I could even argue that it would expand the alpha's pool of potential bullying victims. But I don't foresee a lack of incidents because there was plenty of drama and abuse without the social/sexual political minefield being tossed in. But really, it might be a positive for the fat kids, everyone will be too busy picking on the kid that made everyone take a sensitivity workshop.

 CptJake wrote:
It would seem asking the kid with a penis to change/shower with other kids with penises makes that one kid uncomfortable. Allowing the kid with a penis to change/shower with a bunch of kids with vaginas makes a bunch of kids uncomfortable.

Seems making it clear 'This is the shower room for kids with a penis, and this is the shower room for kids with a vagina' is not that hard to do. There are likely kids belonging in both rooms that, at this age, are uncomfortable with their bodies/bodies of others. At least keeping the body parts allowed in each room consistent is gonna help a lot more of them.

I think this is probably the clearest boiling down of the issue, with the fairly major exception of not taking into account the students identity. You also have the reality that transwomen are sexually assaulted (by men) at a shockingly high rate, while transwomen do not sexually assault ciswomen very much at all.

The theory is that they aren't peeking.

I have developed a strategy to insure this is not the case. Upon entering any gym I strip down and immediately assume the Morgan Pirate stance, preferably with glass of grog, thus blinding all around with my overly large, overly pale self. In fact I don't actually work out. I just hang in the locker room waiting to scare unsuspecting gym patrons. Er...too much?

 CptJake wrote:
It would seem asking the kid with a penis to change/shower with other kids with penises makes that one kid uncomfortable. Allowing the kid with a penis to change/shower with a bunch of kids with vaginas makes a bunch of kids uncomfortable.

Seems making it clear 'This is the shower room for kids with a penis, and this is the shower room for kids with a vagina' is not that hard to do. There are likely kids belonging in both rooms that, at this age, are uncomfortable with their bodies/bodies of others. At least keeping the body parts allowed in each room consistent is gonna help a lot more of them.

I would tend to agree with this, however, like I've stated earlier, if the teenager in question has undergone gender reassignment surgery and their bits match up with everyone else's in the locker room, I'm all for it. It will help separate the van wilders/american pie types from those who are actually transexual.

 Crablezworth wrote:
It will help separate the van wilders/american pie types from those who are actually transexual.

I've seen this pop up a few times, and I'm shocked that it's not a joke.

Boys that decide to identify as women are 100% not doing it to try to sneak into the girls locker room. That's criminally dumb to think. "Yes, I want to wear uncomfortable clothes that don't fit right, get bullied, become a pariah, and have substantial mental health issues. But I'll get to see bewbs!"

Please.

Most transsexuals don't get surgery. Many use hormone therapy, but gender reassignment surgery isn't all that common, because the side effects and potential complications are horrible, and the upside is pretty marginal. (plastic surgeons are good, but not that good).