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This came up in a recent AOS batrep by GMG, but it explicitly affects the Orc force I'm working on too, so figured I'd ask for clarification. In the vid, Grimgor turns some Black Orcs into Da Immortulz, which lets them reroll 1's to hit. As he counts as a Black Orc Big Boss, Grimgor also kicks in the Black Orcs' We's Da Best rule, giving them +1 to hit if he's nearby. Which of course he is, because they're his Immortulz! And on top of that, he's got Everyone Fights, or Else!, which gives all Orcs in 10" +1 to hit as well.

In the video, they didn't let the Black Orcs reroll 1's to hit, due to the +1 or +2 from Grimgor. I guess that's RAW? Do other people play it this way? It seemed weirdly unintended when I saw it happen, and it came up in the next O&G match as well. I want to argue for rerolling physical dice that show a 1, before adding bonuses, but I'm not sure I have a foot to stand on?

Also, I just noticed that all these rules say 'can' add 1 or reroll 1's. I suppose there's some probability to do if you can't have both?

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
This came up in a recent AOS batrep by GMG, but it explicitly affects the Orc force I'm working on too, so figured I'd ask for clarification. In the vid, Grimgor turns some Black Orcs into Da Immortulz, which lets them reroll 1's to hit. As he counts as a Black Orc Big Boss, Grimgor also kicks in the Black Orcs' We's Da Best rule, giving them +1 to hit if he's nearby. Which of course he is, because they're his Immortulz! And on top of that, he's got Everyone Fights, or Else!, which gives all Orcs in 10" +1 to hit as well.

In the video, they didn't let the Black Orcs reroll 1's to hit, due to the +1 or +2 from Grimgor. I guess that's RAW? Do other people play it this way? It seemed weirdly unintended when I saw it happen, and it came up in the next O&G match as well. I want to argue for rerolling physical dice that show a 1, before adding bonuses, but I'm not sure I have a foot to stand on?

Also, I just noticed that all these rules say 'can' add 1 or reroll 1's. I suppose there's some probability to do if you can't have both?

- Salvage

Typically, you roll the die and add/subtract your modifiers. That is your result. If Da Immortulz are more or less alone, they'll get the re-rolls as they're able to roll a modified 1. If they're standing near Grimgor, they'll never get a re-roll as the lowest modified roll they can get is a 3 (1 +1 +1). Which would you rather have... the option to re-roll 1's OR a guaranteed +2? I'd rather have the +2.

For a similar situation, think of something like Ogre Kingdom Ogres. They have a rule called Iron Fists. "Every time you make a successful save roll of 6 or more for a unit of Ogres armed with Iron Fists, and the attacking unit is within 1", the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all its attacks have been made." Now, imagine that the Ogres are being attacking with a -1 Rending weapon. What's the highest successful save roll they can make? In the absence of any other effect that improves armor save rolls (Mystic Shield, for example), the best roll they can get is a 5. They'll never get a successful roll of a 6 because a physical roll of 6 (the highest possible) minus 1 for the rending gives a 5. 5 is the highest possible successful roll they can make. Ogres being attacked with -1 or better rending weapons can never make use of their Iron Fists rule (again, unless they have a Mystic Shield or something giving them a plus to their roll).

 Kriswall wrote:
For a similar situation, think of something like Ogre Kingdom Ogres. They have a rule called Iron Fists. "Every time you make a successful save roll of 6 or more for a unit of Ogres armed with Iron Fists, and the attacking unit is within 1", the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all its attacks have been made." Now, imagine that the Ogres are being attacking with a -1 Rending weapon. What's the highest successful save roll they can make? In the absence of any other effect that improves armor save rolls (Mystic Shield, for example), the best roll they can get is a 5. They'll never get a successful roll of a 6 because a physical roll of 6 (the highest possible) minus 1 for the rending gives a 5. 5 is the highest possible successful roll they can make. Ogres being attacked with -1 or better rending weapons can never make use of their Iron Fists rule (again, unless they have a Mystic Shield or something giving them a plus to their roll).

I hadn't realized Rend works that way, but you're totally right. I'm already sad my Ogres have ironfists, now I'm extra disappointed

I guess with the reroll 1's and +1 to hit situation, I still want to argue that I get to apply the two rules in the order I want, as we did in Warhammer when two rules happen at the same time. In which case I'd establish what my dice look like (i.e. reroll 1's), and then add bonuses to see what my rolls look like (+1 to hit). I'm not sure that's totally incorrect, and it makes me feel like I get the benefit from my characters that was intended, rather than somehow screwing myself out of half of them. (In WM/H land we call this 'Skornergy,' and I do play Skorne over there )

For the record, I'm not running Grimgor, so there isn't an obvious '+2 is better' kneejerk here. But I am converting a Warboss BSB, and pretty bothered that his reroll 1's bubble is looking pointless.

EDIT
And when do you need to decide to use the rule? I toss my Blorcs' attaks and don't get any 1's - We's da Best is fine for the +1, no need for rerolls. I toss my Blorcs' attaks and get a ton of 1's - I don't take We's da Best and instead go with Great Waaagh! Banner for the rerolls? Kind of dumb, but I guess if I can't have all the benefits I 'paid' for I have to do this probability juggle for each batch of rolls?

- Salvage

When you have the option to reroll... don't you reroll BEFORE modifiers are applied? therefore if you roll a 1 you can reroll it before adding any modifiers.

By your logic a unit with shields that can reroll 1s getting attacked by a rend -1 weapon cannot reroll 1s as a 1 'counts as a 0' so they would then be rerolling 2s.

Rerolls happen BEFORE modifying the dice... pretty sure its mentioned in the rules (im at work so I cant check)

Edit: Found a copy of the rules "... and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied"

You get to reroll 1s, THEN add the +1, and models with shields re-roll 1s, then modify etc etc

^^^ yep, what nerm86 said. Crystal clear, last para, 1st column, of page 1.

Nerm86 wrote:
When you have the option to reroll... don't you reroll BEFORE modifiers are applied? therefore if you roll a 1 you can reroll it before adding any modifiers.

By your logic a unit with shields that can reroll 1s getting attacked by a rend -1 weapon cannot reroll 1s as a 1 'counts as a 0' so they would then be rerolling 2s.

Rerolls happen BEFORE modifying the dice... pretty sure its mentioned in the rules (im at work so I cant check)

Edit: Found a copy of the rules "... and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied"

You get to reroll 1s, THEN add the +1, and models with shields re-roll 1s, then modify etc etc

Interesting. If this is true, the rules contradict themselves in several places. Oh well, there's your answer. the Ogre bit still stands though. Rend eliminates the option to roll a successful 6 or more.

It's not too surprising that the rules might contradict themselves, however I agree with the majority opinion given above.

You roll the dice, get a result, then add modifiers. If you roll ones that are modified to twos, you can re-roll them because they are ones on the dice.

Surely as the rules say you can re-roll any 1.s on to hit roll, and you may add +1 to roll means if you roll a 1, you just re-roll (as the roll is a 1 as it says reroll ROLLS of 1, not total scores of 1). Remember most positive buffs state "you can" or "you may", so if you roll the 1 RAW you don't have to add the bonus so still get a re-roll

Nerm86 wrote:
Edit: Found a copy of the rules "... and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied"

I had serious suspicions there was instruction in the rules about how to reroll, but apparently couldn't be bothered to actually read the PDF I summoned up to check

Thanks for clarifying dude

- Salvage

It's just inconsistent throughout the rules, which is confusing. One place tells us we can re-roll 1's and we're checking the result BEFORE modifiers. Another says something happens when we roll a 6 and we're checking the result AFTER modifiers. It would be nice to have a consistency.

Consistency is otiose. Forge a narrative ;-)

But you would re-roll the 6s before rend modifiers, for whatever that's worth.

 jmurph wrote:
Consistency is otiose. Forge a narrative ;-)

But you would re-roll the 6s before rend modifiers, for whatever that's worth.

The why would they write things like "if you make a successful save roll of a 6 OR MORE"? It's impossible to get the or more without modifiers. I took that to mean modifiers were included in the result. I guess modifiers are always included in the result unless a re-roll is in question? In that case rend would impact whether or not you get a rule, but not whether or not you get a re-roll? Inconsistency is bad.

 Kriswall wrote:
Another says something happens when we roll a 6 and we're checking the result AFTER modifiers.

Is that how 'something happens on a 6+ to hit/wound' rules work? Like if you roll a 6+ to hit you cause a mortal wound, does that mean a hard 6 or a 6 after modifiers? I've been playing that it's after modifiers (the + part of the 6+ seems to suggest so, as the die itself can't have a 7+ on it), though admittedly I'm confused again

- Salvage

 Kriswall wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
Consistency is otiose. Forge a narrative ;-)

But you would re-roll the 6s before rend modifiers, for whatever that's worth.

The why would they write things like "if you make a successful save roll of a 6 OR MORE"? It's impossible to get the or more without modifiers. I took that to mean modifiers were included in the result. I guess modifiers are always included in the result unless a re-roll is in question? In that case rend would impact whether or not you get a rule, but not whether or not you get a re-roll? Inconsistency is bad.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Another says something happens when we roll a 6 and we're checking the result AFTER modifiers.

Is that how 'something happens on a 6+ to hit/wound' rules work? Like if you roll a 6+ to hit you cause a mortal wound, does that mean a hard 6 or a 6 after modifiers? I've been playing that it's after modifiers (the + part of the 6+ seems to suggest so, as the die itself can't have a 7+ on it), though admittedly I'm confused again

- Salvage

Seems like it is talks about re-rolls it's before modifiers. If it talks about anything else, it's after modifiers.

I think that hits it on the head

As I said, beneficial modifiers have a "can" or "may" so in the case of a re-roll 1, you just wouldn't apply them if you had a miss anyway. Rend has to be applied.