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The Scroll of Might now also includes Grit for all WHF scrolls: quickly see what to expect from your units in the field of battle.

Grit shows the expectation for a unit in Melee, Missile, Stamina and the Rest, relative to the average of all WHF and AoS scrolls, using a visualized score of 0 to 4.

In the Scroll of Might, a single 17 p. pdf with balanced values for all WHF warscrolls, different symbols are used to show the score. See the link below.
For the new AoS releases below, we’ll use numerical values for the time being: 1 for ‘Meh’, 2 for ‘Can-Do’, 3 for ‘Bring-It-On’, and 4 for ‘OH-YEAH!’ Not as easy on the eyes, but the pdf will have to wait until these two ranges are complete.

Stormcast Eternal
M-M-S-R (Melee, Missile, Stamina and the Rest)
3 - 4 - 3 - 3 : Celestant-Prime
1 - 0 - 1 – 2 : Gryph-Hounds
1 - 3 - 2 - 1 : Judicators, if Skybolt
1 - 3 - 2 - 1 : Judicators, if Boltstorm Crossbow
1 - 0 - 2 - 3 : Knight-Azyros
1 - 4 - 2 - 1 : Knight-Heraldor
1 - 3 - 2 - 2 : Knight-Venator
1 - 2 - 2 - 2 : Knight-Vexillor
2 - 0 - 2 - 1 : Liberators
2 - 0 - 3 - 1 : Lord-Castellant
3 - 0 - 3 - 3 : Lord-Castellant on Dracoth
1 - 0 - 2 - 2 : Lord-Celestant
1 - 0 - 2 - 2 : Lord-Relictor
2 - 0 - 3 - 1 : Paladin Decimators
3 - 0 - 3 - 1 : Paladin Protectors
3 - 0 - 3 - 1 : Paladin Retributors
1 - 0 - 2 - 2 : Prosecutors with Celestial Hammers
1 - 2 - 2 - 2 : Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins

Khorne Bloodbound
M-M-S-R (Melee, Missile, Stamina and the Rest)
1 - 0 - 1 - 2 : Bloodreavers, if Reaver Blade
2 - 0 - 1 - 2: Bloodreavers, if Meatripper Axe
1 - 0 - 2 - 1 : Bloodsecrator
1 - 0 - 2 - 1 : Bloodstoker
2 - 0 - 2 - 1 : Blood Warriors
1 - 0 - 2 - 2 : Exalted Deathbringer, if Bloodbite Axe
1 - 0 - 2 - 2 : Exalted Deathbringer, if Ruinous Axe
1 - 1 - 2 - 2 : Khorgorath
2 - 0 - 3 - 2 : Mighty Lord of Khorne

Because the original Grit (a single value that only looked at a small part of Might), was too restricted and confusing, the new visual aid has replaced it.

The Scroll of Might and Might for all AoS Releases are here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/662092.page;jsessionid=42F17E5FAB2072058EF3E9B2B387FF21#8110839 .

Cheers,

Your Sage

Shouldn't this be in the original scroll of might thread?

Hi, thanks.

Well, Grit isn't needed to find balance or organise armies of an agreed size, that's what Might is for.

Grit is an extra tool to compare individual models.

For instance, if you find it hard to decide between this unit of or that, both great choices to fill that 23 Might slot in your army, then Grit might help you make up your mind.

Cheer,

Your Sage

The point is that if they are not equally cost efficient, then the system isn't balanced to begin with. If there are obvious best choices for the same Might cost, then the Might costs are poorly set.

If unit A is always better than unit B, but they cost the same, then the system is flawed. The solution is not to add some sort of artificial efficiency number to models, the solution is to change the prices so that the units are balanced.

Well, of course not.

Like I said, Grit has nothing to do with Might. If you compare Might to the battle value of a squadron of Spitfires, then Grit would be something like the amount of firepower ach plane has per horse power.

Apples and oranges.

Now if you have two units of equal Might and really don't know which one to choose (Missiles or not? Fast or slow? Heck, what's my battle plan?), then Grit might help you.

Cheers.

But in your own words grit is a measure of how cost-effective it is based on the costs from the scroll of might. If it were an entirely extra system or comp that would be one thing, but its just a set of numbers saying what's good and what isn't (which, as Solaris raised, is an advertisement for the biggest flaw of scrolls of might; lack of balance). It hardly warrants its own thread.

Hi, indeed it's based on Might. Just as those horsepowers in my example are based on the planes in that squadron. That's what Grit is about, just a fun way to compare models: it's not meant to organize armies.

Solaris explained in the other thread what his interpretation of balance is: you share his view, I don't. To find balance, you wish to put a unit on the scales, and the units it fights next to, and the ones it fights against, and the situation it might fight in, and then frequently add or remove stuff ... whereas the Scroll of Might merely wants to weigh the units themselves. That discussion is in the other thread (and there are other threads that do share your view of balance). This one is about something else. So let's keep them separate please? Thanks.

Cheers,

Your Sage

Fair enough, I did not realize this was totally separate. On that note, I don't quite understand how to use it in a game. There are numbers representing effectiveness for different models - are these to be used as points to create opposing armies with balanced totals or as a general reference when using other comp systems? Does it go off minimum unit size?

Quiet Sage wrote:
Grit values range from 1- (lowest) to 10+ (highest). Grit doesn't show you how strong a unit is, but how cost-effective, i.e. a high value means it's a very good unit for its cost.

This would imply you have units that aren't as cost effective, that cost being might. So basically, you're pointing out your own imbalances. Like, two units cost 20 might points, one has 3 grit, the other has 7. Doesn't that just mean the 3 grit should cost less that 20 might points and the 7 grit more?

Could you make direct comparisons between your spitfire horsepower/firepower example and an actual AoS unit? Like, prosecutors and spitfires have a might value, what would the prosecutors 'horsepower/firepower' be, and how do they factor into the initial might values to begin with?

Hi, so the idea behind Grit was to give some tool to compare units, just for the heck of it. Like horsepower per kg of those Spits. Grit isn't supposed to help balance armies, just like that hp/kg figure is useless in ranking them for actual operational use (I mean, many other factors are more important).

We've played around with different ways to get a Grit value, and presented the one that looked best. But it does look a bit confusing putting an extra number on each line in the Scroll of Might.

So ... it will be taken off the list (sorry for the confusion it caused), and be replaced with something that is (meant to be) useful to help decide which units to pick in what situation: a visual aid that quickly shows you the strength and weakness of a unit. Hopefully tomorrow or else this weekend (it's a challenge to combine such a visual aid with the demand to stick to a single line per scroll in order to keep the document short).

Cheers,

Your Sage

Quiet Sage wrote:
Hi, so the idea behind Grit was to give some tool to compare units, just for the heck of it. Like horsepower per kg of those Spits. Grit isn't supposed to help balance armies, just like that hp/kg figure is useless in ranking them for actual operational use (I mean, many other factors are more important).

So you've introduced three variables for the spitfire example, horsepower, firepower, and now weight, and I still have no idea how any of those three relate to AoS units.

But for example, the khorgorath and deathbringer with ruinous axe both cost 12 might. However, the khorgorath is 3- grit, and the deathbringer 4+, meaning the deathbringer is more cost effective. If that cost is the initial might points, doesn't that imply they shouldn't cost the same amount of might points to begin with?

I guess what I mean is, everything would have the same grit value if everything were balanced as everything would be equally cost effective.

If GW made a grit system for 40k, really powerful units like wraithknights and centurions would have high grit, and other less competitive units like scout bikers would have low grit. But all that would do is indicate imbalances they created themselves.

Hi, yes, it was a failed experiment.

Which is why it has been replaced by something that is useful, a visual aid showing the expectation for a unit in Melee, Missile, Stamina and the Rest, relative to the average of all WHF and AoS scrolls, on a score of 0 to 4. See the edited post at the start of the thread.

Your Sage

Yes, I see them now. That makes more sense, the initial grit values really just seemed like a sub-point system. The qualitative system you have now is much clearer. I'm really interested to see how fan made balancing systems pan out, I knew as soon as the game was released without points people would go about making them. Good luck with further development.

So anyways, I don't like the scroll of might, but since this is separate I am still confused on how it is to be used on its own or with other comp systems. Are the numbers based on minimum unit size? Command or no? Do they take into account rules based on varying unit size?

Thanks.

It can be used with any system I think, because the values are relative to the average. But I don't know how well it fits other systems: this one separates a unit's scroll into those four categories.
The fourth or 'Rest' category contains everyting that provides influence to the other 3 or to other units, e.g. Magic.

Groupings are based on minimum sizes with full command. Main reason is that minimum size tends to be the same as what you get in a box.
Making a unit bigger may move it up a group. Fielding it without command will only move a few units down a group.

Cheers,

Your Sage

I might be referencing this for 'characters at a glance' then, thanks.