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So, this is just a quick thought I've had. There is definitely much more nerfing Eldar need (I'm looking at you, Wraithknight), but a a big problem I still find is with Eldar D-Guard zooming up the board in Wave Serpents and wrecking most things. My idea is to change the profiles of Wraithcannons and D-Scythes to the following:

Wraith Cannon
12", SD, AP2, Type: Heavy 1

D-Scythe
Template, SD, AP2, Distort Scythe, Type: Heavy 1

Distort Scythe
A weapon with this special rule always subtracts 1 from its destroyer attack table roll and always assumes S4 for the purpose of instant death. Furthermore, any template weapons with this special rule always assume the D3 roll as per the "Wall Of Flame" special rule as being a result of 1 when resolving overwatch.

So, now Wraithguard have a choice between moving and shooting and are less effective in Overwatch. Feel free to make any suggestions. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they brought back the old rule that any wraith construct must be within a certain distance of a psyker in order to do anything. Or perhaps, make a different version of the "Programmed Behaviour" special rule from 30k for them.

Looks pretty good, although Heavy might not be the best way to do it since I doubt people would use them.

I always had a feeling that Eldar D-Weapons should have something like the D-Scythe Special rule.

So Wraithcannons and Heavy Wraithcannons get Distort, which gives -1 on the D Table whereas D-Scythe gives -2 on the D-Table

 Quintinus wrote:
Looks pretty good, although Heavy might not be the best way to do it since I doubt people would use them.

I always had a feeling that Eldar D-Weapons should have something like the D-Scythe Special rule.

So Wraithcannons and Heavy Wraithcannons get Distort, which gives -1 on the D Table whereas D-Scythe gives -2 on the D-Table

that actually sounds amazing, however I would also remove the D weapons getting to overwatch to. That way your not getting boned assaulting those Wraith dudes.

How about you just, I don't know, not charge a unit with 5 template weapons? Even when they were Str 4 AP 2 (ID on a 6) that fell well into the realm of stupid.

Or be smart about your charges and charge in with an expendable unit to soak overwatch, and then hit them with what you really want to kill them with?

I'd be ok with Heavy 1 on the Wraith cannon, if wraiths got slow and purposeful, which would make sense for them anyway.

Lendys wrote:
How about you just, I don't know, not charge a unit with 5 template weapons? Even when they were Str 4 AP 2 (ID on a 6) that fell well into the realm of stupid.

Or be smart about your charges and charge in with an expendable unit to soak overwatch, and then hit them with what you really want to kill them with?

I'd be ok with Heavy 1 on the Wraith cannon, if wraiths got slow and purposeful, which would make sense for them anyway.

Then what the hell are we supposed to do? If you assault them, they throw a minimum of 5 SD shots in your face. If you get into a shooting fight with them, they template you with SD. If you're too far away, they just speed up to you in a Wave Serpent. There are not really many ways to deal with them. My only really hope is to grab some dirge casters or a Defiler (which I've done exactly with D-Guard in mind). Slow and Purposeful on Wraithguard also completely misses the point of making their weapons heavy, since it means they have to make a choice between moving and shooting. Wraithguard are also just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Eldar as well. Eldar just need a serious nerf, because they the single most overpowered codex in the game.

Lendys wrote:
How about you just, I don't know, not charge a unit with 5 template weapons? Even when they were Str 4 AP 2 (ID on a 6) that fell well into the realm of stupid.

Or be smart about your charges and charge in with an expendable unit to soak overwatch, and then hit them with what you really want to kill them with?

I'd be ok with Heavy 1 on the Wraith cannon, if wraiths got slow and purposeful, which would make sense for them anyway.

well dude, im an Ork Player and our shooting isn't that spectacular to begin with. However our basic infantry are pretty damned good at assaulting. As far as expendable units.....I don't really have any besides more Ork infantry or Gretchin, but gretchin never leave the backfield for the obvious reason that they die to a stiff breeze.

Deffkoptas/Gretchin work great. I use Mek Gunz for backfield objectives. Usually Traktors because once Flyers are dealt with they don't really do anything.

@OP just make them what they were last edition. The game needs more power from D weapons, just less availabilty of it.

Wraithguard with heavy weapons would be useless. They only have 12" range. How would they ever shoot anything. If they get close target only has to move 11" max and they are safe. Maybe you could trap a unit, but that probably won't happen much.

I would expect making either of their guns heavy would ensure no one would ever use them. Range 12" heavy means that the wraiths will only ever be in assault or the enemy will simply walk backwards out of range. The D-scythes would suffer even more for obvious reasons.

I think the simplest solution would just be to kick them back to what they were in the last codex. They were still plenty lethal back then as well. Further from that, you could make them slow and purposeful to stop the wall of death I guess. I'd rather not though, as my wraithlord likes flaming dudes who try to hit him first! So rude!

They're 35 points a model (45 with flamer), have a 3+ save, are generally slow unless you take a transport, and have very short range.

Yes, they hit hard, are T6, and are "scary", but... at max they surprise and kill 1 unit before being outrun or mowed down.

Meanwhile, I'll continue Stomping your units off the table with no save when you started the turn 39" away from any Knight (Imperial or Eldar).

There are more broken things than Wraithguard guns.

Honestly I think the Wraithknight wouldn't be 1/2 the sack-punch it is without Stomp being the way it's set up.

Or just put them back to the same as in the last codex?
No reason to complain that you cannot beat a dedicated unit with the very thing it is meant to be good against.

Just drop a couple of pie plates on them from a Killkannon or battle cannon and the whole squad will vanish.

Adding D was overkill, but I thought S4 AP2 was fine even if it was a limited use weapon (anti deepstrike and anti Charge unit)

I would say that they should not be allowed in transports and need a HQ unit nearby to use though. (relentless if a HQ is near/ SnP if one is not)

After all, they are bigger then Termies and if a termie cannot fit in a Rhino, then a Wraith cannot fit in a Wave Serpent.

I say just make Wraithguard Slow and Purposeful.

That would stop the D-Scythes from doing one of their core uses though, which is a charge deterrent.

If you have an army that cannot deal with a unit that is dangerous to charge, your army is too skewed and needs more variety of units.

As mentioned, I agree that they should not be able to transports around and hop out at perfect range to flame targets.

And if a unit deepstrikes right next to them and does not kill them... then why did you deepstrike right next to them without the resources to kill them?

My proposed changes would be as follows:

Wraithcannon: S10 AP2, Salvo 1/1, Distort

D-Scythe: S4 AP2, Ordnance 1, Distort

Distort: Rolls of 6 to wound always wound regardless of the model's toughness and have the Instant Death special rule. Rolls of 6 to penetrate armor always penetrate.

vehicle that suffers a penetrating hit from a weapon with the Distort special rule must roll a D6. On a roll of 4+, they take no further damage; on a 3 or less the vehicle is immediately wrecked (unless an Explodes! result is rolled on the damage chart, in which case it explodes as usual.)

Additionally, add the following stipulations: Wraithguard may never arrive via Deep Strike (including Webway Portals or being embarked on a Deep Striking Raider). If a Spiritseer is attached to a unit of Wraithguard, they gain the Relentless special rule.

Reasoning: Wraithcannons are Salvo so that they can shoot on the move, but only at greatly reduced range. D-scythes are Ordnance because to use them effectively on vehicles, you're fishing for a 6 - might as well have at least a reasonable chance of getting one. No Deep Strike is to prevent Archon/Succubus shenanigans, and the Spiritseer-gives-Relentless bit is to make them not entirely worthless when footslogging (and to impose a tax if you want to be able to hop out of a Serpent and flame in the same turn).

The Distort variation is to make Wraith weapons deadly, while not a total no-brainer. IMHO, giving them D-weapons was an internal balance issue: in 6th edition, there was actually a tradeoff between Wraithguard and Fire Dragons. Wraithguard were deadlier against monstrous creatures and multi-wound infantry, and were slightly more durable than Fire Dragons. Dragons, OTOH, were deadlier against vehicles, cheaper, faster and had melta bombs. In 7th, they're mostly just cheaper and faster. So they're more likely to kaboom a vehicle. So what, the Wraithguard will almost certainly wreck it in one shot anyway.

I like your addition that they cannot deepstrike, but I'm not sure that a 6 Inch range on the Wraithcannons will be much use for anything.

Also, I don't personally feel that D-Scythes are for Tank hunting (thats the Wraith cannons job)
Ordinance would make it expected, while as it is, its a lucky bonus to a good shot as I feel it should be.

I'm not sure that a 50% chance to oneshot any tank is warranted but I'm open to hear more about why you feel this would be a reasonable addition.

I'm trying to strike a balance there between the old version and the Destroyer version, but yeah, on second thought, maybe that doesn't make sense, for exactly the internal balance reason mentioned later. I was trying to come up with an analog of the Instant Death on infantry/MC. Yeah, a pen with AP2 can do that, but only on a 6+ (5+ if open-topped). But, on second thought, OP versus Fire Dragons, so I'll revise that.

The 6" range only comes up on the move if they don't have a Spiritseer with them: shouldn't be too hard to get them in range with a Wave Serpent, and there's no way I'd ever footslog them without a Spiritseer (unless maybe I had enough Farseers to be reasonably guaranteed of getting Forewarning).

I feel like there would be no point to using Fire Dragons with these changes however.

If the Wraithguard are forced to walk with range 12" they can act as a slowmoving fire base who's counter is high speed, but are naturally tough.

While you can then take Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent if you want a highspeed MEQ and Tank killer squad but can be countered by a counter attack since they are squishy once they are out of their transport.

If Wraithguard can be both tough and highly maneuverable, it makes them to much of an Auto Take since they cannot be effectively counterattacked like the Fire Dragons could be.

I always feel that Eldar should be OP if the opponent does not exploit each units built in weakness. As it is though, you don't need any thought to play eldar since you can easily cover all bases and have no weakness right now.

I think in terms of maneuverability, Wraithguard have a big disadvantage from not having Fleet and Battle Focus, even with Relentless.

OTOH, a different possibility: Wraithguard have to footslog. No transports at all. However, the Wraithcannon becomes Assault 1, and they get Slow and Purposeful unless they have a Spiritseer with them, in which case they get Relentless. (Still no Fleet or Battle Focus.)

Yes, as I was suggesting.

I don't think the Wraithcannon needs Assault 1 though.
Both SnP and Relentless allow the user to fire on the move regardless of their weapon, so Assualt 1 does not actually change anything

Why are we concerned about assault on the wraith weapons? Are assaulting wraithguard at strength 5 AP - really that frightening?

 aprilmanha wrote:
Yes, as I was suggesting.

I don't think the Wraithcannon needs Assault 1 though.
Both SnP and Relentless allow the user to fire on the move regardless of their weapon, so Assualt 1 does not actually change anything

I probably should have said "reverts to Assault 1", since that's what it is currently.

They Are? Ohh well yes in that case carry on as you were
( should really look at my codexes some day!

 natpri771 wrote:

Then what the hell are we supposed to do? If you assault them, they throw a minimum of 5 SD shots in your face. If you get into a shooting fight with them, they template you with SD. If you're too far away, they just speed up to you in a Wave Serpent. There are not really many ways to deal with them. My only really hope is to grab some dirge casters or a Defiler (which I've done exactly with D-Guard in mind). Slow and Purposeful on Wraithguard also completely misses the point of making their weapons heavy, since it means they have to make a choice between moving and shooting. Wraithguard are also just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Eldar as well. Eldar just need a serious nerf, because they the single most overpowered codex in the game.

One Wraith cannon can (and sometimes not, huh) one model per turn in 12" range. It's not so overpowered, if you ask me. Also, it's not so difficult to keep units that you don't want to be killed away from these 12".
Wave Serpents are pretty easy to deal with.

And also, wraithguards are 3+ guys with 6" movement. You got the Heldrake. See, Heldrake and 3+ armor, Heldrake and 3+ armor...

You know, in all honest, in order to nerf Eldar D-weaponry, they just need 8th edition and a nerf to all D weapons.

No, They need to nerf Distortion weapons to Str 10 ap2 like they were in 6th ed.

Destroyer Weapons carried by Titans are justified.

 Filch wrote:
No, They need to nerf Distortion weapons to Str 10 ap2 like they were in 6th ed.

Destroyer Weapons carried by Titans are justified.

exactly. im ok with the occasional Strength D item, the SAG or that Vortex grenade that was a Unique Item and had to be taken by an HQ. That stuff is fine, but giving Strength D to a number of things that aren't 1 use only, extremely expensive OR random just makes the game that extra bit broken.

Although I despise the Wraith Knight, I think it should retain the Str D wraith cannons and glaive melee weapons options. However, the Wraith Knight needs a price bump and the upgrade to get wraith cannons and glaive should cost considerable points.

Take away the Str D weapons on all other eldar platforms.

 Filch wrote:
Although I despise the Wraith Knight, I think it should retain the Str D wraith cannons and glaive melee weapons options. However, the Wraith Knight needs a price bump and the upgrade to get wraith cannons and glaive should cost considerable points.

Take away the Str D weapons on all other eldar platforms.

i would be alright with that