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I'm not that up on things regarding Khaine or his Avatars, but in almost every instance I see one of the two being mentioned, it's regarding them getting humiliatingly trashed by anything and everything.
I'm surprised there's no story about a random Guardsman killing one by catching it in the eye with a Lasgun and making it fall off a cliff.
Fulgrim killed one more or less with his bare hands, but I guess you could argue he was at least somewhat empowered by a Slaaneshi Greater Daemon. I'd say it's unlikely that an Avatar could single-handedly take down a Bio-Titan, but probably not impossible. I'd say it also depends on what kind of Bio-Titan we're talking here. If it's a Hierophant, there's maybe a chance. Dominatrix? No way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/22 20:31:40
As quoted in the article - "The most consistently Worfed thing in 40k has to be the the Avatar of Khaine, the physical embodiment of the Eldar's god of war. To date the Avatar has been killed by two different Primarchs (one of whom somehow strangled a giant animated statue of molten metal), a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (via possession, somehow), Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels' Sanguinor, twelve bum-rushing Tyranid Carnifexes, the Blood Ravens four times over the Dawn of War games, the Legion of the Damned who brought down a roof on it, and Maugan Ra, an Eldar."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/23 04:53:37
... that's kind of a meh way for the Legion to take down an Avatar. They're badass Ghostrider Marines, and they resorted to dropping a building on it? Lame.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Avatar of Khaine are basically like Worf in Star Trek. They are really cool, and people talk about them being super tough, but it is really just to put over some other thing and show how awesome that specific thing is.
Furyou Miko wrote: ... that's kind of a meh way for the Legion to take down an Avatar. They're badass Ghostrider Marines, and they resorted to dropping a building on it? Lame.
They spaced him after it became apparent that neither could hurt the other.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I have to ask which Primarch strangled a statue of molten metal...
I wouldn't really hedge my bets on the Avatar of Worf taking down the titan. I suppose anything is possible in 40k if your character is important enough though.
I do recall the Avatar in 'Valedor' being pretty capable though. Maybe he could do it!
EmpNortonII wrote: That Avatar of Khaine exists only to die so we can see how awesome other characters.
Agreed, bloodthirsters suffer from the same treatment. What to make someone look awesome? Have them kill a walking avatar of the gods of battle and murder. Trouble is it's been so overdone now it isn't impressive anymore, and two phenomenal concepts have been reduced to laughing stocks and whipping boys in the fluff.
I remember when it was the Battle Sisters' job to be Worf... sigh...
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
As quoted in the article - "The most consistently Worfed thing in 40k has to be the the Avatar of Khaine, the physical embodiment of the Eldar's god of war. To date the Avatar has been killed by two different Primarchs (one of whom somehow strangled a giant animated statue of molten metal), a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (via possession, somehow), Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels' Sanguinor, twelve bum-rushing Tyranid Carnifexes, the Blood Ravens four times over the Dawn of War games, the Legion of the Damned who brought down a roof on it, and Maugan Ra, an Eldar."
I would point out that one the Avatars killed by a Primarch (Lorgar) was in the Eye of Terror and barely alive so doesn't really count. It was symbolic of the destruction of the Eldar Empire and the "truth" of the Ruinous Powers being true gods. Fulgrim, one of 20 part Warp part flesh creatures created by the Emperor, defeated one by crushing it's neck with his bare hands then promptly passed out from his battles (which did admittedly involve him kill other Eldar including a Wraithlord). It wasn't easy for him. The Keeper of Secrets which possessed an Avatar possessed one which was unawakened in an Eldar Craftworld that was for some reason was at extreme risk of Daemonic invasion. That background was terrible but due more to the stupidity of the Eldar than what happened with the Avatar. Calgar killed an Avatar (but was exhausted by the effort) after it had almost singlehandedly broken the Ultramarine force and shrugged off thunder hammers. Again, this background is worse more for how the rest of the Eldar are portrayed than for the Avatar. If anything it suggests that only Calgar's magic gauntlets were capable of destroying the Avatar. I don't recall the Sanguinor fighting an Avatar. The Carnifex thing was dumb, granted. The Blood Ravens thing was more about it being a game with the Eldar having it as a super unit than anything else. I wouldn't really count it. As far as I know Maugan Ra didn't kill an Avatar but used his blood to help forge his weapon and since it didn't fight him afterwards may have been acceptable to it for some reason. So yeah it's less about the Avatar being portrayed badly as all Eldar being portrayed badly in several of these situations.
The Avatar in Shadowpoint was portrayed as quite impressive. It breaks the Dark Eldar assault if I recall correctly and is quite intelligent. I'd appreciate it if someone could refresh my memory on that though.
I'd like to say the Avatar would win but I guess it depends on the writer. Would point out that the big weaknesses of Avatars and Bloodthirsters (in terms of being fearsome in the background) is that they're most portrayed as just hitting stuff with a big axe or sword. Not generally war winning stuff. They should really be described as having other effects more often. Other than inspiring their followers. Bloodthirsters inciting maddening rage in both friend and foe for instance; breaking down the discipline of the enemy and almost psychically compelling them to engage the followers of the Blood God on their own ground. Guess that's a bit irrelevant though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/24 20:10:53
The problem with Worfing something isn't just the multiple and varied defeats the Worf suffers from, it's the lack of feats to back it up. Worf is said to be this badass, yet all he does is get his ass kicked. He barely ever kicks ass himself. It's all offscreen reputation.
Do Avatars suffer this too? Do you ever see them backing up their reputation in any of the stories?
It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact Khaine himself gets Worfed, so not only is the Avatar a punching bag, the very thing it's an Avatar of gets tossed around like a ragdoll by Khorne and Slaanesh.
Hierophant wrote: The problem with Worfing something isn't just the multiple and varied defeats the Worf suffers from, it's the lack of feats to back it up. Worf is said to be this badass, yet all he does is get his ass kicked. He barely ever kicks ass himself. It's all offscreen reputation.
Do Avatars suffer this too? Do you ever see them backing up their reputation in any of the stories?
It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact Khaine himself gets Worfed, so not only is the Avatar a punching bag, the very thing it's an Avatar of gets tossed around like a ragdoll by Khorne and Slaanesh.
No, the Avatar is a Worf. I can't even think of a time where an Avatar showed up and kicked ass outside Path of the Eldar, and that was just the avatar beating up Ork Boys.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
As quoted in the article - "The most consistently Worfed thing in 40k has to be the the Avatar of Khaine, the physical embodiment of the Eldar's god of war. To date the Avatar has been killed by two different Primarchs (one of whom somehow strangled a giant animated statue of molten metal), a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (via possession, somehow), Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels' Sanguinor, twelve bum-rushing Tyranid Carnifexes, the Blood Ravens four times over the Dawn of War games, the Legion of the Damned who brought down a roof on it, and Maugan Ra, an Eldar."
I would point out that one the Avatars killed by a Primarch (Lorgar) was in the Eye of Terror and barely alive so doesn't really count. It was symbolic of the destruction of the Eldar Empire and the "truth" of the Ruinous Powers being true gods. Fulgrim, one of 20 part Warp part flesh creatures created by the Emperor, defeated one by crushing it's neck with his bare hands then promptly passed out from his battles (which did admittedly involve him kill other Eldar including a Wraithlord). It wasn't easy for him. The Keeper of Secrets which possessed an Avatar possessed one which was unawakened in an Eldar Craftworld that was for some reason was at extreme risk of Daemonic invasion. That background was terrible but due more to the stupidity of the Eldar than what happened with the Avatar. Calgar killed an Avatar (but was exhausted by the effort) after it had almost singlehandedly broken the Ultramarine force and shrugged off thunder hammers. Again, this background is worse more for how the rest of the Eldar are portrayed than for the Avatar. If anything it suggests that only Calgar's magic gauntlets were capable of destroying the Avatar. I don't recall the Sanguinor fighting an Avatar. The Carnifex thing was dumb, granted. The Blood Ravens thing was more about it being a game with the Eldar having it as a super unit than anything else. I wouldn't really count it. As far as I know Maugan Ra didn't kill an Avatar but used his blood to help forge his weapon and since it didn't fight him afterwards may have been acceptable to it for some reason. So yeah it's less about the Avatar being portrayed badly as all Eldar being portrayed badly in several of these situations.
The Avatar in Shadowpoint was portrayed as quite impressive. It breaks the Dark Eldar assault if I recall correctly and is quite intelligent. I'd appreciate it if someone could refresh my memory on that though.
I'd like to say the Avatar would win but I guess it depends on the writer. Would point out that the big weaknesses of Avatars and Bloodthirsters (in terms of being fearsome in the background) is that they're most portrayed as just hitting stuff with a big axe or sword. Not generally war winning stuff. They should really be described as having other effects more often. Other than inspiring their followers. Bloodthirsters inciting maddening rage in both friend and foe for instance; breaking down the discipline of the enemy and almost psychically compelling them to engage the followers of the Blood God on their own ground. Guess that's a bit irrelevant though.
Sanguinor curbstomps an Avatar in the BAngels 'dex. Then again, the Sanguinor is basically a Daemon himself, so I can understand that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Avatar loses to everything. The only way an Avatar wins is if it's up against an army of buttfracking proportions, and shat needs to get done. However, you face that Avatar against any unique character of any kind, and he will trip on his shoelaces and land facefirst on a railroad spike and die. Because terrible fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/25 09:18:41
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Hierophant wrote: It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact Khaine himself gets Worfed, so not only is the Avatar a punching bag, the very thing it's an Avatar of gets tossed around like a ragdoll by Khorne and Slaanesh.
He did however defeat the Nightbringer.
Wyzilla wrote:No, the Avatar is a Worf. I can't even think of a time where an Avatar showed up and kicked ass outside Path of the Eldar, and that was just the avatar beating up Ork Boys.
Shadowpoint by Gordon Rennie.
dusara217 wrote:Sanguinor curbstomps an Avatar in the BAngels 'dex. Then again, the Sanguinor is basically a Daemon himself, so I can understand that.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I think the only army an avatar has not been destroyed by in the lore is tau, and that's because they've probably never encountered one.
It's sort of sad, they are really cool.
I agree that it's sad. They should be portrayed as much stronger than they are. That said I don't think any have been destroyed by Necrons, Orks, Sisters of Battle or Dark Eldar... yet, anyway.
To reinforce my point from Shadow Point, the Avatar from marches (by himself) across a large Orkish territory and destroys everything in this path. He utilises multiple "psychic" powers (all flame based admittedly) to destroy his foes. While he doesn't go up against any Greater Daemons or particularly powerful characters (other than a Dark Eldar leader of some sort who has anti-psychic warding) he is resilient against most conventional attacks. It's also stated that a "traktor" beam couldn't move him when he braced himself.
In the Valedor novel (which is a fantastic read) the Biel Tan Avatar somehow survives a tyranid world for weeks until it the returning eldar link up with it. It was just casually ripping through hordes of nids for ages until the eldar notices that something is attracting lots of tyranid attention.
Mind you that's like the only time I've seen an Avatar be awesome like it's supposed to.
