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Why? Games Workshop and Black Library have both been coming up with terrible ideas recently, but this one remains the biggest stupidity I have ever seen. Why the human plasma weapons used by the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are considered inferior? Here is a rundown list of pros and cons compared to other plasma weapons:

Cons:

- It blows up in your face.

Pros:

- It is Strength 7 compared to Strength 6 of Eldar and Tau plasma and equal to Ork plasma.

- It can be made compact enough that an average infantryman can carry around with ease. Tau and Eldar plasma are too large and has to be mounted of platforms, vehicles and battlesuits.

- It is widely available. Almost any Imperial Guards and Space Marines unit can grab themselves a plasma weapon. Such thing is impossible for other races. You don't see the normal Ork boyz running around with a Custom Blasta. He needs to be extremely rich and skilled to handle that thing.

Whichever the case, it depends on the user. A skilled user will have little to know chance of blowing up his plasma weapon (BS6 or higher).

So why? I am close to giving up on GW giving good world building and compelling logic at this point.

"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

I'd rather have squads dedicated to anti armour and MEQ, rather than having one guy blow up every round.

 toasteroven wrote:
"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

In the case of a Space Marine, how often does that even happen? Yes, plasma on a vehicle is stupid since it gets no save. But a Space Marine first has to roll a 1. Then the Str4 hit they suffer has to wound. Then they have to fail their armor save. In the case of a regular Tactical Marine that has a (1/6)*(3/6)*(2/6). That is a 1/36 chance, and it goes down if you have better armor or Feel No Pain. What sort of chances are people satisfied with Plasma not killing them, Powerball odds?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

In the case of a Space Marine, how often does that even happen? Yes, plasma on a vehicle is stupid since it gets no save. But a Space Marine first has to roll a 1. Then the Str4 hit they suffer has to wound. Then they have to fail their armor save. In the case of a regular Tactical Marine that has a (1/6)*(3/6)*(2/6). That is a 1/36 chance, and it goes down if you have better armor or Feel No Pain. What sort of chances are people satisfied with Plasma not killing them, Powerball odds?

There is no To-Wound roll. The wound is suffered automatically, but saves can be taken.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

In the case of a Space Marine, how often does that even happen? Yes, plasma on a vehicle is stupid since it gets no save. But a Space Marine first has to roll a 1. Then the Str4 hit they suffer has to wound. Then they have to fail their armor save. In the case of a regular Tactical Marine that has a (1/6)*(3/6)*(2/6). That is a 1/36 chance, and it goes down if you have better armor or Feel No Pain. What sort of chances are people satisfied with Plasma not killing them, Powerball odds?

There is no To-Wound roll. The wound is suffered automatically, but saves can be taken.

Where the hell did I get that it was a Str4 hit, not just a plain old wound?! Apparently, I am asleep at the wheel. Someone tell my patients I am going to bed. Still, it is (1/6)*(2/6), so a 1/18 chance. Still not that terrible. Though I will admit, the only units I give Plasma to have Feel No Pain to increase their survivability. 1/27 are odds I can live with.

Imperial Plasma;
Cons:
- It blows up in your face.
- It's not melta.
- It's disproportionally represented on the table top, and is much rarer in the fluff than melta.

Pros:
- It is Strength 7 compared to Strength 6 of Eldar and Tau plasma and equal to Ork plasma and 8 of melta.
- It can be made compact enough that an average infantryman can carry it with difficulty (plasma guns are still bulky, Tau infantry could carry theirs but choose not to, and Eldar used to have infantry-mounted plasma weapons... and still have infantry-carried melta)
- It's got a bit longer range than melta.

bibotot wrote:
Why? Games Workshop and Black Library have both been coming up with terrible ideas recently, but this one remains the biggest stupidity I have ever seen. Why the human plasma weapons used by the Imperium of Man and the Forces of Chaos are considered inferior? Here is a rundown list of pros and cons compared to other plasma weapons:

Cons:

- It blows up in your face.

Pros:

- It is Strength 7 compared to Strength 6 of Eldar and Tau plasma and equal to Ork plasma.

- It can be made compact enough that an average infantryman can carry around with ease. Tau and Eldar plasma are too large and has to be mounted of platforms, vehicles and battlesuits.

- It is widely available. Almost any Imperial Guards and Space Marines unit can grab themselves a plasma weapon. Such thing is impossible for other races. You don't see the normal Ork boyz running around with a Custom Blasta. He needs to be extremely rich and skilled to handle that thing.

Whichever the case, it depends on the user. A skilled user will have little to know chance of blowing up his plasma weapon (BS6 or higher).

So why? I am close to giving up on GW giving good world building and compelling logic at this point.

The skill of the user has little to no bearing on the chance of the gun blowing up in the fluff. It's just a mechanic they use to keep the game simple.
In the fluff, understanding of how to maintain a plasma gun properly is what makes it not blow up. And sadly for the imperium, no one REALLY knows how to do that, which is why the guns blow up so much.

I wouldn't say with 100% certainty that they're more compact than. Could very well be that the other races just choose not to give plasma to regular footfolk.

Finally, they're not widely available. They're supposed to be quite rare guns, only given to the elite of the elite. Tau, now they've got them widely available. They can equip full squads with 2 guns on each troop.

I use plasma weapons a lot being a Dark Angels player. Can't say I have had many instances of self-destructing plasma weapons. Worst I've suffered is a Plasma Cannon and plasma gun dying in the same turn. That's happened once. Other times I've had a consistent performance from them. Particularly my Deimos pattern Predator w/Plasma Destroyer.

bibotot wrote:
I am close to giving up on GW giving good world building and compelling logic at this point.

GW has never done compelling logic. Case in point:


If you're here for logic, you're in the wrong place.

Also, any gun that has a 1/6 chance of covering you in plasma is a bad idea.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

In the case of a Space Marine, how often does that even happen? Yes, plasma on a vehicle is stupid since it gets no save. But a Space Marine first has to roll a 1. Then the Str4 hit they suffer has to wound. Then they have to fail their armor save. In the case of a regular Tactical Marine that has a (1/6)*(3/6)*(2/6). That is a 1/36 chance, and it goes down if you have better armor or Feel No Pain. What sort of chances are people satisfied with Plasma not killing them, Powerball odds?

Refresh your rules man. a vehicle has a 4+ "save" against gets hot.

Nor does a SM rolls a S4 wound, you get hot-then you immediately take a save. (so a marine has a 1/6*2/6=1/18 to die at each shot)

I have no idea what edition's rules are that, but it's not 7th. not even 6th. MAYBE 5th.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 toasteroven wrote:
"Frequently kills its user" seems like a pretty significant con, to me.

In the case of a Space Marine, how often does that even happen? Yes, plasma on a vehicle is stupid since it gets no save. But a Space Marine first has to roll a 1. Then the Str4 hit they suffer has to wound. Then they have to fail their armor save. In the case of a regular Tactical Marine that has a (1/6)*(3/6)*(2/6). That is a 1/36 chance, and it goes down if you have better armor or Feel No Pain. What sort of chances are people satisfied with Plasma not killing them, Powerball odds?

Refresh your rules man. a vehicle has a 4+ "save" against gets hot.

Nor does a SM rolls a S4 wound, you get hot-then you immediately take a save. (so a marine has a 1/6*2/6=1/18 to die at each shot)

I have no idea what edition's rules are that, but it's not 7th. not even 6th. MAYBE 5th.

No need to go ham:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Where the hell did I get that it was a Str4 hit, not just a plain old wound?! Apparently, I am asleep at the wheel. Someone tell my patients I am going to bed. Still, it is (1/6)*(2/6), so a 1/18 chance. Still not that terrible. Though I will admit, the only units I give Plasma to have Feel No Pain to increase their survivability. 1/27 are odds I can live with.

To be fair, it doesn't happen as often in the fluff as it does in the game.

But what is reward without a little risk? Plasma away!

I dislike it because it's too much if a generalist weapon. Not enough hits to kill big squads, and not potent enough to one shot vehicles.

Leman Russ Executioners do well with plasma, imo.

Fluff-wise, I doubt it happens as often as one in six times. And you still have a chance to drop the gun if it Gets Hot. Finally, if we assume that the overheating is due to poor training, that doesn't stop AdMech (and possibly certain chapters of SM) from effectively fielding them.

AdMech do field them, but that's explicitly because the tech-priests do not give a crap what happens to Skitarii or battle servitors.

Guard also field them... and again explicitly because of the leadership not giving a crap about whether guardsmen live or die.

It's part of the over-the-top dystopian nature of the setting.

With some variation depending on how grimdark the piece of fluff you are reading is.

if a weapon has a reasonable chance to explode and kill you it is not a perfect weapon, it's mostly fine in game since you get saves but it's clearly inferior from a military fluff standpoint to eldar or Tau weapons since they don't repeatedly kill their own users

Noones thinks ork weapons are superior, quite the opposite

GAdvance wrote:
if a weapon has a reasonable chance to explode and kill you it is not a perfect weapon, it's mostly fine in game since you get saves but it's clearly inferior from a military fluff standpoint to eldar or Tau weapons since they don't repeatedly kill their own users

Noones thinks ork weapons are superior, quite the opposite

It's perfectly fine if you view the shooter as a more delivery system for the gun and there are a bunch of guys behind him who can pick the gun up when he dies!

Which they could in 3rd. But not anymore.

IIRC imperial plasma is less regarded in the Tau/Eldar fluff as "stupid" and more as showing Imperial contempt for their own soldiers.

Although the Imperium is in indeed, stupid. The plasma gun is just a manifestation of such stupidity.

Devastator Squad - 4 Plasma Cannons, Armorium Cherub
Librarian - Divination Primaris (Prescience)


...he can even tank in terminator armor and a storm shield.
no problem.

When my buddy uses plasma be it in CSM or Guard, I think they all always kill themselves by the end of the game.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
When my buddy uses plasma be it in CSM or Guard, I think they all always kill themselves by the end of the game.

The guard are just trying to kill you faster than themselves. They win the race, because there are a lot more of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 poolatka wrote:
Devastator Squad - 4 Plasma Cannons, Armorium Cherub
Librarian - Divination Primaris (Prescience)


...he can even tank in terminator armor and a storm shield.
no problem.

Small blasts are pretty bad, though.

GAdvance wrote:
if a weapon has a reasonable chance to explode and kill you it is not a perfect weapon, it's mostly fine in game since you get saves but it's clearly inferior from a military fluff standpoint to eldar or Tau weapons since they don't repeatedly kill their own users

Noones thinks ork weapons are superior, quite the opposite

From a modern Western perspective, sure. But if you gave that weapon to Soviet Russia, they would have used it without hesitation, and consider it the pinnacle of weapons tech, regardless of his many conscripts it kills.

The 1/6 is just a game mechanic. In the 40K RPGs, not only is the chance of a plasma weapon overheating lower (1/10), you can drop the weapon to avoid the damage and it must spend a round to cool down. I also have a house rule that if the player spends time/has experience maintaining such weapons, the overheat chance goes down to 1/20.

Well I think part of the issue is that in the RPGs you don't want your characters just dying when they shoot a gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's an internal requirement of the genre.

Because some people are convinced that their luck means it blowing up is an assured thing that will happen every time NO EXCEPTION NEVER NO NOPE NEVOPER!

first time i ever used one in game it exploded.....

the fact they kill your rather expensive marines is not useful as it could be.