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So, they Bolter is possibly one of the worst shooting weapons in the game, simply because it lacks the flavour of other weapons. Elder get pseudo-rending, Necrons get auto-wound/glances on a 6+ etc. This is primarily because the Bolter is the weapon with which all others are judged by. In fact, the only weapon that's worse is the Lasgun (and Guard can compensate for that with the sheer volume of shots). So, here are some ideas for changing the profiles of bolt weapons.

Boltgun
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 2

Storm Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 3

Combi-Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Twin-Linked, Type: Assault 2

 natpri771 wrote:
So, they Bolter is possibly one of the worst shooting weapons in the game, simply because it lacks the flavour of other weapons. Elder get pseudo-rending, Necrons get auto-wound/glances on a 6+ etc. This is primarily because the Bolter is the weapon with which all others are judged by. In fact, the only weapon that's worse is the Lasgun (and Guard can compensate for that with the sheer volume of shots). So, here are some ideas for changing the profiles of bolt weapons.

Boltgun
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 2

Storm Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 3

Combi-Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Twin-Linked, Type: Assault 2

I dont think Assault is a good idea on Bolters, a Salvo 2/3 may not be bad though, though this would get weird pretty fast.

Yeah, I would agree that making the basic Boltgun Assault is probably a little much - look at how much Relentless adds to the Necron Decurion, even on troops that are lackluster but not terrible in close combat. (Which is where your average Space Marine falls, too; Mark of Khorne Chaos Marines are a fair bit scarier).

Maybe make Boltguns and Combi-Bolters Salvo 2/3 and Storm Bolters Assault 4? (That would also justify the 5-point price for them.)

Alternatively, we could take a page from the 5th ed Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Dark Eldar and give them two types - "Heavy 3 or Rapid-Fire", with Storm Bolters getting "Heavy 4 or Assault 2", and Heavy Bolters (which, let's face it, are a little overpriced and underpowered recently) just going to straight-up "Salvo 3/5".

I like how "non special" means bad now. It negates light armor, with average range, average strength that can hurt light vehicles, and it's usually on a platform that has decent stats for line infantry. at most, give it shred.

Judging from the fluff, bolter rounds in game seem so 'meh'. They really need AP4.

Had an earlier discussion about granting shred to Bolters that might be worth looking at:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/639327.page

I'd rather see you something else done to Tac marines( the most common wielders of bolters) then giving them shred. Something like letting TAC squads purcase one type of SIU and letting sgts take auspexes( and change it so that the effects stack) That would be both balanced and cool to me.

 natpri771 wrote:
So, they Bolter is possibly one of the worst shooting weapons in the game, simply because it lacks the flavour of other weapons. Elder get pseudo-rending, Necrons get auto-wound/glances on a 6+ etc. This is primarily because the Bolter is the weapon with which all others are judged by. In fact, the only weapon that's worse is the Lasgun (and Guard can compensate for that with the sheer volume of shots). So, here are some ideas for changing the profiles of bolt weapons.

Boltgun
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 2

Storm Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 3

Combi-Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Twin-Linked, Type: Assault 2

did you forget my orks and there shootas? 18" S4 AP6 Assault 2? On a BS2 platform means that their is a 2/3rd chance 1 shot will hit. I would say that is a bit worse then SM Bolters

Our special rule is.....we don't have one. We are special because we feel like we are special.

To me, the trick with Ork guns is that they /are/ both multi-shot and Assault. Though they should probably have a boost too: keep the shorter range and worse AP, but make 'em S5 and maybe amp up the rate of fire. (Yes, S5 is Tau special sauce - but the difference is, Tau can actually hit with them!)

jade_angel wrote:
To me, the trick with Ork guns is that they /are/ both multi-shot and Assault. Though they should probably have a boost too: keep the shorter range and worse AP, but make 'em S5 and maybe amp up the rate of fire. (Yes, S5 is Tau special sauce - but the difference is, Tau can actually hit with them!)

Id be fine with Assault 3, i mean for Morks sake i gotta pay for my shootas now!

You can have your upgrade when Lasguns finally get their much more needed buff and are actually useful.

Practically speaking, I think lasguns are already superior to boltguns because of how they are fielded. Boltguns contribute to the schizophrenic and ultimately ineffective nature of the basic marine.

Lasguns do jack gak against just about everything. Bolters can at least injure most basic infantry reliably, damage most vehicles (some from the front too) and have some form of firepower.

Even amassed Lasguns will struggle to do anything against most targets. On average I find that for every thirty shots my veterans fire (so at a higher BS than the average Guardsman) they cause about one casualty on average. And that is assuming the target does not get FNP.

One more point of strength and BS for almost triple the price does not sound worth it to me.

There's a reason Marine players never rely on the boltgun to do even light lifting in their armies.

Amassed lasguns are actually quite good vs 3 up armor mcs and teqs. The price of the lasgun makes it better than the bolter.

Yep. Guardsmen are cheap, and thanks to cover they can soak up firepower that could have been thrown at your more valuable units.

Against anything more powerful than S6 AP3, Guardsmen are just as tough, for a third of the price.

I'd definitely argue the boltgun is in greater trouble, and I don't even play loyalists. Hell, even my CSM army doesn't really use much in the way of boltguns.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Lasguns do jack gak against just about everything. Bolters can at least injure most basic infantry reliably, damage most vehicles (some from the front too) and have some form of firepower.

Even amassed Lasguns will struggle to do anything against most targets. On average I find that for every thirty shots my veterans fire (so at a higher BS than the average Guardsman) they cause about one casualty on average. And that is assuming the target does not get FNP.

That is just indicative of you having terrible luck. Massed Lasgun fire can be devastating. I mean there isnt a ton of things that arent MCs or vehicles that 150 Lasguns cant handle.

The Strangleweb wants a word.

Maybe add the tactical doctrines into the profile of tactical marines, which would kind of nerf the whole "Army Wide Doctries" thing.
Tactical Doctrine (Tacticals): The Tactical squad can re-roll all to hit rolls for a single phase
Assault Doctrine (Assaults, Bikers & A-Centurions): The Assault squad may re-roll to hit in the assault phase and gains fleet
Devastator Doctrine (Devastators & D-Centurions): The Devastator squad at re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and gains relentless

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Lasguns do jack gak against just about everything. Bolters can at least injure most basic infantry reliably, damage most vehicles (some from the front too) and have some form of firepower.

Even amassed Lasguns will struggle to do anything against most targets. On average I find that for every thirty shots my veterans fire (so at a higher BS than the average Guardsman) they cause about one casualty on average. And that is assuming the target does not get FNP.

That is just indicative of you having terrible luck. Massed Lasgun fire can be devastating. I mean there isnt a ton of things that arent MCs or vehicles that 150 Lasguns cant handle.

It's actually almost impossible to have bad luck with that many dice. You are getting into the law of large numbers, where averages completely dominate. He's pushing the plastic wrong. I'm 90% convinced of this, because his accounts do not jive with how IG games go down in my experience.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Lasguns do jack gak against just about everything. Bolters can at least injure most basic infantry reliably, damage most vehicles (some from the front too) and have some form of firepower.

Even amassed Lasguns will struggle to do anything against most targets. On average I find that for every thirty shots my veterans fire (so at a higher BS than the average Guardsman) they cause about one casualty on average. And that is assuming the target does not get FNP.

That is just indicative of you having terrible luck. Massed Lasgun fire can be devastating. I mean there isnt a ton of things that arent MCs or vehicles that 150 Lasguns cant handle.

It's actually almost impossible to have bad luck with that many dice. You are getting into the law of large numbers, where averages completely dominate. He's pushing the plastic wrong. I'm 90% convinced of this, because his accounts do not jive with how IG games go down in my experience.

I'm 90% convinced that he exaggerates, and I am 100% convinced that lasguns cannot be as bad as he claims if his stories of how he has defeated primarchs and forces with hundreds of extra points are true.

Special Rule:

Any to hit rolls of 6 grants ap4.

or

Can choose to snapfire and triple the amount of shots. Can not use this in overwatch.

 natpri771 wrote:
So, they Bolter is possibly one of the worst shooting weapons in the game, simply because it lacks the flavour of other weapons. Elder get pseudo-rending, Necrons get auto-wound/glances on a 6+ etc. This is primarily because the Bolter is the weapon with which all others are judged by. In fact, the only weapon that's worse is the Lasgun (and Guard can compensate for that with the sheer volume of shots). So, here are some ideas for changing the profiles of bolt weapons.

Boltgun
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 2

Storm Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Type: Assault 3

Combi-Bolter
24", S4, AP5, Twin-Linked, Type: Assault 2

I actually think this would be a pretty solid way to boost boltgun marines without going overboard. Instead of getting either 2 shots if you shoot or 1 shot and 2 melee attacks if you assault, you'd be getting 2 shots and 2 melee attacks in melee while also bringing to bear both all your shooting and melee weapons. So 4 attacks per guy instead of 2 or 3, and it makes it easier to get the most out of all those little things that marines have and are encouraged to pay for (sargeant weapons, grenades, higher strength, toughness, and WS, etc.) Personally, I'd kind of like to see marines be totally reworked to be a "miniboss" army, but if we want them to remain mostly unchanged, simply letting them shoot with all their weapons and assault in the same turn seems like a good way to do that. If nothing else, it makes the "tax" marines in the average tac squad feel like they have a reason to be there.

That said, these changes aren't especially helpful to sisters or other non-marine bolter wielders who generally don't hit hard enough in melee to really benefit from such a change. Other suggestions I've seen here and there that I like include:

Giving bolt weapons shred (works better against everything and makes bolter marines feel that much more reliably lethal)
Giving bolt weapons AP4 (useful against eldar, 'eavy armor orks, and tau mostly; doesn't help against MCs, MEQs, or most things really)
Make them assault 2/heavy3 (higher rate of fire for heavy bolters), and give tac marines relentless (lets you advance as needed, then hold still and become a somewhat formidable gunline for your points; makes heavy bolters more useful as they're more mobile; makes heavy weapons in a tac squad more useful in general and lets them feel like a somewhat agile forward scalpel unit)

I also like the idea of certain chapters having alternative weapon profile rules as part of their chapter tacitcs, much like the heavy + rending option Raptors (the chapter) have. Imperial Fists might get to reroll 1s and 2s if they don't move (because siege warriors up on the wall), for instance. White scars might be allowed to Battle Focus or count as BS2 after jinking, Raven Guard might be able to treat their bolters as 24" heavy 1 snipers, etc. There are a lot of perfectly reasonable ways to make the most common gun in the game more useful, and fitting those suggestions to various playstyles might be an interesting way to add diversity to chapters.

Please dont make them AP 4, that would make 'eavy armor basically useless.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Lasguns do jack gak against just about everything. Bolters can at least injure most basic infantry reliably, damage most vehicles (some from the front too) and have some form of firepower.

Even amassed Lasguns will struggle to do anything against most targets. On average I find that for every thirty shots my veterans fire (so at a higher BS than the average Guardsman) they cause about one casualty on average. And that is assuming the target does not get FNP.

That is just indicative of you having terrible luck. Massed Lasgun fire can be devastating. I mean there isnt a ton of things that arent MCs or vehicles that 150 Lasguns cant handle.

It's actually almost impossible to have bad luck with that many dice. You are getting into the law of large numbers, where averages completely dominate. He's pushing the plastic wrong. I'm 90% convinced of this, because his accounts do not jive with how IG games go down in my experience.

I'm 90% convinced that he exaggerates, and I am 100% convinced that lasguns cannot be as bad as he claims if his stories of how he has defeated primarchs and forces with hundreds of extra points are true.

Only, little grasshopper, the Primarch was not defeated by lasgun fire. In fact lasguns fire did nothing to it. The primarch was defeated by: two rounds of shooting from a Deimos pattern destroyer, 3 rounds from a pair of Exterminators, 2 rounds from a pair of Leman Russ Battle Tanks and 1 round from a very lucky Eradicator. The Infantry did nothing but die whilst acting as meatshields.

Lasguns are bad. This whole 'but they are better because you have more' arguement is balls. It means nothing. Sure, I have 28 Lasguns to your 10 bolters. Those Lasguns, at short range, might just inflict 3 fatalities on your bolter carrying ubermensch. In return your Bolters will wipe an entire section of infantry out. 8 men, gone in a flash and the other two running for the hills. Now there are only 18 lasguns.
But of course the humble lasgun is utterly OP. As is the average Guardsman. After all, I hear that a lasgun once killed a marine! Shock! Horror! Run to GW and demand all Guardsmen be nerfed to 1's across the board and cost 100000 points each!

 master of ordinance wrote:
Lasguns are bad. This whole 'but they are better because you have more' arguement is balls. It means nothing. Sure, I have 28 Lasguns to your 10 bolters. Those Lasguns, at short range, might just inflict 3 fatalities on your bolter carrying ubermensch. In return your Bolters will wipe an entire section of infantry out. 8 men, gone in a flash and the other two running for the hills. Now there are only 18 lasguns.
But of course the humble lasgun is utterly OP. As is the average Guardsman. After all, I hear that a lasgun once killed a marine! Shock! Horror! Run to GW and demand all Guardsmen be nerfed to 1's across the board and cost 100000 points each!

This is assuming you have no cover. And do you want to know the best part?

You wiped out a third of him, and he wiped out a third of you. An even trade. In the very best situation you can have a bolter in.

That is saying something.

I like the Heavy Bolters becoming Salvo 3/5. Mostly because a Punisher will be able to toss out 35 S5 shots per turn.

Oh, and some mathhammer on the "30 lasguns"thing (also, veterans, why are there not melta/plasma/heavy flamers in there?):

A naked veteran squad under FRFSRF tosses out 28 las shots within 12". Firing at a Space Marine squad, 18.67 hit, 6.222 wound, 2.074 are unsaved. So double the claimed number of kills.

Also, if you take vets for mass lasgun fire, you're doing it wrong.

The weapons that really do desperately need a buff are grenade launchers and missile launchers. You never, ever, see those in Guard lists, because for what they do flamers, melta, or plasma is always better.

Lasguns arent great, but boltguns are worse. Both the math and experiences agree on this.

Boltguns either need to be assault, get 3-4 shots or be higher strength as fluff says one bolt shell can gib a marine at the range they get fired at

Marines are actually fairly resistant against bolter fire.

That says more about the Marines themselves than their weapons, though. Mortal humans are still evaporated.