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I'm thinking maybe a point drop to 25 or something? Maybe a boost in WS/Initiative/A because I mean rn the wraithgaurd and Blades have the exact same statline and the blades are supposed to be specialized at CC?

Give them T6, rage, fearless and I4 S6 ap3 weapons that should work.

marcman wrote:
I'm thinking maybe a point drop to 25 or something? Maybe a boost in WS/Initiative/A because I mean rn the wraithgaurd and Blades have the exact same statline and the blades are supposed to be specialized at CC?

The wraithguard hit any target (except an invisible one) on 3+; and on a 2+ do D3 wounds/hullpoints at AP2, with a roll of a 6 killing anything short of a titan. And they do this from 12" away. Unless you give wraithblades D-weapons and WS 8 or so they will never be as good as wraithguard.

Or you could nerf the wraithguard......

I can see Wraithblades getting two attacks base, but no more. They're already as tough as most monstrous creatures, and are fearless to boot. IF you want to make them viable in a list, consider the Avatar of Khaine.

I always saw them as a good tarpit unit, not so much as a "I'll wipe out your elites CC unit".
T6, 3+ and fearless is fairly hard to chew through.
Let them absorb a big nasty charge and then counter attack with somewhat more "killy" units?

marcman wrote:
I'm thinking maybe a point drop to 25 or something? Maybe a boost in WS/Initiative/A because I mean rn the wraithgaurd and Blades have the exact same statline and the blades are supposed to be specialized at CC?

They already have fearless, rage and two power weapons (giving four S5 AP3 attacks on the charge), and the option to upgrade to AP2 and invulnerable saves. Combined with T6 and 3+ save, what more would you give them? They are largely immune to mass small arms fire, which is the main threat to most assault heavy infantry such as terminators and genestealers. While they aren't the best unit in the Eldar codex, they certainly have their uses.

The eldar units are all supposed to be of similar statlines with special rules and wargear bei g the primary difference between them. 4 strength 6 ap3 attacks each on the charge is a good deal of damage to come from a 30 point model. They are bully units in a codex that primarily focuses on escalating damage output.

Strength D, bladestorm, rend, sniper, poison, haywire, and lance are all escalating potency weapons. Meaning their capability increases in efficiency with the opponent's durability without a set maximum.

Yea I guess so, what gets me is that wraithblades look so cool but just seem to not be as viable compared to the two point difference of wraithgaurd


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Would you consider running 5 in a raider? I'm more leaning to axe and shield but would sword could be more viable in some cases as well

marcman wrote:
Yea I guess so, what gets me is that wraithblades look so cool but just seem to not be as viable compared to the two point difference of wraithgaurd


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Would you consider running 5 in a raider? I'm more leaning to axe and shield but would sword could be more viable in some cases as well

Wraithblades aren't necessarily a bad unit; they just need more effort to make them viable on the tabletop. A raider would go a long way toward making them better, as it gives them an assault transport.

Take the Ghostaxe and Forceshield. They don't have assault grenades and poor Initiative for Eldar, and the 4++ goes a long way toward making them survivable.

Honestly, wraith blades don't seem problematic to me. They aren't as cost effective as wraith guard, but wraith guard are one of the most powerful units out there right now. Wraith blades are pointy, but they're super tough, and they'll handle most enemies reasonably well in close combat (even if they take a while to kill it off).

In wraith-themed lists, they make excellented charge-catchers or counter-chargers for your wraith guard. You can use a spirit seer's runes of battle powers to boost them nicely (I'd argue that they benefit from runes of battle better than a lot of our units). In an elfzilla list, they make scary front line troops for your opponent to throw units against right before you send in wraith lords and an avatar to counter-charge them.

They aren't scatter bikes, webway bomb wraithguard, or wraith knights, but for friendly games, they don't have to be. I can think of plenty of situations in which they'd be perfectly fun and useful. Also, I've always sort of seen them as the melee option for wraith armies. Want to play Iyanden without leaning on aspect warriors or harlequins for a counter charge? Why not wraith blades? Back in 5th, people spoke fairly often about wanting a fluffy melee wraith unit, and wraithblades are what we got! They seem fine to me. Not a first string pick for tournaments, but fine.

"Not all my units are as good as my top units, they are NOT VIABLE AT ALL"

#EldarProblems

give them storm shields or some sort of special shield, to make them very hard to kill. With ++3inv fnp they could see some play in theamed lists.

Is this a serious thread? I honestly can't tell. I mean, they are each as tough as the toughest Tyranid monster... This has really reached absolutely mad levels of complaining.

Grumblewartz wrote:Is this a serious thread? I honestly can't tell. I mean, they are each as tough as the toughest Tyranid monster... This has really reached absolutely mad levels of complaining.

Tyranid MCs tend to have at least four wounds. Wraithguard only have one. And yes, this thread is serious.

The biggest problem Wraithblades have is that they are a solid melee unit in an army that is focused on shooting and doesn't natively have an assault transport. You could take a DE Raider, but Wraithblades need some sort of character support to make them effective and are Bulky.

Makumba wrote:give them storm shields or some sort of special shield, to make them very hard to kill. With ++3inv fnp they could see some play in theamed lists.

Wraithblades can already grab a 4++ save if they free swap to the Ghostaxe and Forceshield. If taken in a Wraith Host, they gain Battle Focus for extra mobility. Take five on foot with axe + shield, put the mandatory Spiritseer with them and roll on the Runes of Battle. Conceal/Reveal gives them Shrouded, and the other powers will actually benefit the Wraithblades. The Spiritseer is now majority Toughness 6 with 4++ save for LoS! rolls. You just don't see lists like this because most of the Eldar armies listed out here are all about abusing the most OP units instead of making the other units work.

MarsNZ wrote:"Not all my units are as good as my top units, they are NOT VIABLE AT ALL"

#EldarProblems

Welcome to the 7th edition Eldar codex. If it isn't Scatbikers or the Wraithknight or packing a D-weapon, it's automatically terribad and unusable. Sometimes I really hate my army.

Reasonable?
When other wraithguard are toting D weapon flamers?

No. There are no reasonable changes that would make wraithblades a viable choice when compared to their competition.

You could give them a couple of more wounds each, and more attacks, and a better weapon skill - all for their current price, and they would still be inferior to D-scythes.

You will get little to no positive input or sympathy for your plight here because, well, Eldar.

Wraithblades get 2 attacks, 3 on the charge with Ghostswords. Give 'em an Axe and shield, and you get 1 attack true, but you get an Invulnerable save on top of T6.

I've always looked at Wrathblades as one of the more balanced units in the Eldar codex. Eldar have plenty of kick butt melee units. Adding one more seems like overkill.

You could model them with 4 arms, giving them blades/axes and D-Flamers (!).

Also drop their point costs.

I'd just increase the points and give them an extra wound maybe, but then I think they should either be faster or bulkier, in terms of looks. Basically I want another wraith model and not just wraithguard with swords.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Reasonable?
When other wraithguard are toting D weapon flamers?

No. There are no reasonable changes that would make wraithblades a viable choice when compared to their competition.

You could give them a couple of more wounds each, and more attacks, and a better weapon skill - all for their current price, and they would still be inferior to D-scythes.

On a unit to unit basis, virtually any unit will come up short against Scatbikers, D-weapons, and the Wraithknight. But I'd say that's more of a problem with those standout units rather than the rest of the army.

Tamwulf wrote:You will get little to no positive input or sympathy for your plight here because, well, Eldar.

Wraithblades get 2 attacks, 3 on the charge with Ghostswords. Give 'em an Axe and shield, and you get 1 attack true, but you get an Invulnerable save on top of T6.

I've always looked at Wrathblades as one of the more balanced units in the Eldar codex. Eldar have plenty of kick butt melee units. Adding one more seems like overkill.

Wraithblades have 4 attacks on the charge with swords, 3 with axes. Wraithblades have Rage.

I could see Wraithblades getting an additional point of WS and an extra attack base, but no more. I also think that Wraithblades are currently balanced; they just need a reason for people to take them.

On a unit to unit basis, virtually any unit will come up short against Scatbikers, D-weapons, and the Wraithknight. But I'd say that's more of a problem with those standout units rather than the rest of the army.

It is entirely the problem of those units. However, a "unit to unit basis" is the only way to categorically judge a unit's worth.

Wraithguard with ranged weapons are direct competition to wraithblades for the slot and points, but are much more competitive.

If wraithguard are not nerfed first, then any change to wraithblades to make them on par, will completely unbalance them compared to options in other armies, and hence be unreasonable.

The best way to make Wraithblades more viable is to make them a unit entry in an codex that doesn't suffer from too many good choices. Dark eldar, harlequins and Orks would love to field them

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

On a unit to unit basis, virtually any unit will come up short against Scatbikers, D-weapons, and the Wraithknight. But I'd say that's more of a problem with those standout units rather than the rest of the army.

It is entirely the problem of those units. However, a "unit to unit basis" is the only way to categorically judge a unit's worth.

Wraithguard with ranged weapons are direct competition to wraithblades for the slot and points, but are much more competitive.

If wraithguard are not nerfed first, then any change to wraithblades to make them on par, will completely unbalance them compared to options in other armies, and hence be unreasonable.

I feel like we aren't communicating effectively. I'm not saying that Wraithguard are not OP and don't need to be nerfed. I am saying that no other unit in the game cna compare on a 1-to-1 basis with Scatbikers or D-weapon units or the Wraithknight. Thus comparing Wraithblades to Wraithguard is an unfair comparison.

Wraithguard could use some minor tweaks, but are otherwise fine as they currently are. People just choose to build lists that focus on other units.

Wraithblades can already grab a 4++ save if they free swap to the Ghostaxe and Forceshield. If taken in a Wraith Host, they gain Battle Focus for extra mobility. Take five on foot with axe + shield, put the mandatory Spiritseer with them and roll on the Runes of Battle. Conceal/Reveal gives them Shrouded, and the other powers will actually benefit the Wraithblades. The Spiritseer is now majority Toughness 6 with 4++ save for LoS! rolls. You just don't see lists like this because most of the Eldar armies listed out here are all about abusing the most OP units instead of making the other units work.

There is a hude difference between doing something on +4 and +3. throw a FnP or a some inv buff ability, and they could see play. Lets say they can link their shields to get+1inv, from shoting and outside of melee.
IMO the only way to make them comparable vs the shoting guard is to make them almost indestructible. One unit would be the kills everything and the other one would be the unkilable one.

Thus comparing Wraithblades to Wraithguard is an unfair comparison.

Just because one of the units is considered (and probably is OP) doesn't mean it is an unfair comparison. It is simply one sided.
The comparison in this case is very simple: both units have the same stats, occupy the same FOC slot, and cost a similar amount.

Wraithguard could use some minor tweaks, but are otherwise fine as they currently are.

Sure, I totally agree. However the title of the post is: "Is there any reasonable changes to make Wraithblades more viable"
Viable infers a competitive environment, and whilst wraithblades are balanced when considering a codex like orks or nids, they certainly don't compare well to higher tier codices, or even other options (wraithguard) in their own codex.

I don't think wraithblades need a change, yet they currently they are not viable due to other available options. No reasonable change to wraithblades would change this. The key word here is reasonable.

Makumba wrote:There is a hude difference between doing something on +4 and +3. throw a FnP or a some inv buff ability, and they could see play. Lets say they can link their shields to get+1inv, from shoting and outside of melee.
IMO the only way to make them comparable vs the shoting guard is to make them almost indestructible. One unit would be the kills everything and the other one would be the unkilable one.

Runes of Battle can already buff their amour save, WS and Initiative, and Strength. I don't think that Wratihblades need a further buff, as it would put them head and shoulders above other comparable assault units. As it is, Wraithblades are balanced for what they bring to the table. They just need the right unit synergies on the table to make them work.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Thus comparing Wraithblades to Wraithguard is an unfair comparison.

Just because one of the units is considered (and probably is OP) doesn't mean it is an unfair comparison. It is simply one sided.
The comparison in this case is very simple: both units have the same stats, occupy the same FOC slot, and cost a similar amount.

Wraithguard could use some minor tweaks, but are otherwise fine as they currently are.

Sure, I totally agree. However the title of the post is: "Is there any reasonable changes to make Wraithblades more viable"
Viable infers a competitive environment, and whilst wraithblades are balanced when considering a codex like orks or nids, they certainly don't compare well to higher tier codices, or even other options (wraithguard) in their own codex.

I don't think wraithblades need a change, yet they currently they are not viable due to other available options. No reasonable change to wraithblades would change this. The key word here is reasonable.

I agree with what you're saying. I interpreted viable as "usable on the tabletop" which isn't the same as "competitive". Wraithblades may not compare well to other units both the Edlar codex and in other codexes, but they are still a balanced unit that can perform well with the right support. they don't need to be buffed to the same levels as Wraithguard.

The only thing they really need - along with every other army without one - is an assault transport.

Give the Swordguard d equivalent to scythes and Axeguard d strait up d. Not serious. Would be consistent though.

I feel like maybe a reasonable change could be getting rid or rage for 2 base attacks , and I would love for the ax to lose unweildly lol but honestly what I hate about these guys is that they can't get buff from avatar of khane because they already have fearless and rage


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I mean realistically Str 5 and they have trouble swinging an ax:p


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Honestly they should make wraithgaurd 5-15 points more base and make Wraithblades troop choices the dream

marcman wrote:
I feel like maybe a reasonable change could be getting rid or rage for 2 base attacks , and I would love for the ax to lose unweildly lol but honestly what I hate about these guys is that they can't get buff from avatar of khane because they already have fearless and rage


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I mean realistically Str 5 and they have trouble swinging an ax:p


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Honestly they should make wraithgaurd 5-15 points more base and make Wraithblades troop choices the dream

The Avatar is actually a good choice for Wraithblades, as they make good bodyguards and they do benefit from Furious Charge.

Have you seen the size of the weapons for the Wraithblades? They're huge compared to regular power weapons, which is why they have boosted stats.

Wraithguard need a missive points increase if they continue to pack the D, but can stay the same if changed back to 6th edition Distort.