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So I think there should be a Devastator analog to the Sternguard(Tactical) and Vanguard(Assault) Veterans.

Ideally, they would be able to take special weapons for everyone in the squad and come with Split-fire or the ability to move and shoot (probably Slow and Purposeful not Relentless). Here is what I envisioned.

Elite

Hailguard Veteran Squad - 125 pts

Veteran WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2/Ld9/Sv3+
Veteran Sergeant WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2/Ld9/Sv3+

Unit Type: Infantry. Veteran Sergeant is Infantry Character

Unit Composition: 4 Veterans. 1 Veteran Sergeant

Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Heavy Bolter, Frag Grenades, Frak Grenades, Omniscope (Veteran Sergeant only)

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Preferred Enemy, Slow and Purposeful

Options:
May include up to five additional Veterans...25 pts/model
Any model may take Hellfire shells...5 pts
Any model can replace his heavy bolter with one of the following:
Multi-melta...free
Missile Launcher...5 pts
*may also take flakk missiles...10 pts
Plasma cannon...5 pts
Lascannon...10 pts
Assault Cannon...15 pts
Grav-cannon and Grav-amp...25 pts
The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino, or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.

Too powerful?

A 10 strong hevey weapons team?

Any draw backs to thst? Bar cost.

 jhe90 wrote:
A 10 strong hevey weapons team?

Any draw backs to thst? Bar cost.

Slow and Purposeful would make them very prone to getting assaulted. They are still just T4, 3+ Sv models that can't fire overwatch. Also, the large amount of heavy weapons without splitfire means they are likely to blow whatever they aim at off the map, but be left with a ton of wasted shots. They should probably have Split-Fire and cost a bit more though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
A 10 strong hevey weapons team?

Any draw backs to thst? Bar cost.

Slow and Purposeful would make them very prone to getting assaulted. They are still just T4, 3+ Sv models that can't fire overwatch. Also, the large amount of heavy weapons without splitfire means they are likely to blow whatever they aim at off the map, but be left with a ton of wasted shots. They should probably have Split-Fire and cost a bit more though.

That or just let a unit above x number of models combat squad? though the unit minus sgt would lose advantage of any extra war gear they have and bonus.

 jhe90 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
A 10 strong hevey weapons team?

Any draw backs to thst? Bar cost.

Slow and Purposeful would make them very prone to getting assaulted. They are still just T4, 3+ Sv models that can't fire overwatch. Also, the large amount of heavy weapons without splitfire means they are likely to blow whatever they aim at off the map, but be left with a ton of wasted shots. They should probably have Split-Fire and cost a bit more though.

That or just let a unit above x number of models combat squad? though the unit minus sgt would lose advantage of any extra war gear they have and bonus.

I think leaving combat squads at 5 would be fine. They would basically just be amped up Devastators with a Heavy Weapon toting Sergeant, which is kind of the idea. I forgot all about Combat Squads.

Also just realized I forgot to put their Force slot in there. They would be Elites.

Combat sqauding seemed a easy way to solve that problem, its a free ability already built into codex and no adding higher point costs on.

allows unit to engage two separate targets, and sub specilise into two fire teams, no wasted bolter shots on av14

Elites is a fine slot, and allows room for the armour from hevey suport to be brought easily.

I don’t see enough to differentiate them from regular devastators. You are forced to pay for a vet statline you are getting almost nothing out of, and gain S&P. Which if you are hunkering down in ruins/cover, you don’t need.

You want these guys to be the pinnacle of shooting. This is the cream of the chapter, with the biggest guns in the armory. I’d open up more options to them. Let them take things like assault cannons or conversion beamers. Helfire rounds for the HB. Let the sarge take something wacky like an omniscope. If you don’t want to give them BS5 (which I totally understand) it might be worth letting them MC their weapons. Or always re-roll ones to hit. Or something.

 Nevelon wrote:
I don’t see enough to differentiate them from regular devastators. You are forced to pay for a vet statline you are getting almost nothing out of, and gain S&P. Which if you are hunkering down in ruins/cover, you don’t need.

You want these guys to be the pinnacle of shooting. This is the cream of the chapter, with the biggest guns in the armory. I’d open up more options to them. Let them take things like assault cannons or conversion beamers. Helfire rounds for the HB. Let the sarge take something wacky like an omniscope. If you don’t want to give them BS5 (which I totally understand) it might be worth letting them MC their weapons. Or always re-roll ones to hit. Or something.

will definitely take this into consideration. You are right, they do need better shooting. I think something on the order of the Armorium Cherub, but constantly in effect would be good. Though honestly, these guys are the best shots in the entire chapter, BS5 wouldn't be out of place. I don't really think conversion beakers are practical since Techmarines have to have them mounted to their backs, but I could definitely see them having access to the assault cannon. I do think giving them boosted heavy bolters would be good. I think giving the Sergeant an Omniscope would be a great idea, better than a signum for sure. I will look into it.

Heck, give them Preferred Enemy (everything) - that's a nice boost to reliability without being quite as nasty as straight-up BS5 or twin-linked would be.

Assault cannons are a good option, and, to take a page from Chaos, maybe autocannons too.

jade_angel wrote:
Heck, give them Preferred Enemy (everything) - that's a nice boost to reliability without being quite as nasty as straight-up BS5 or twin-linked would be.

Assault cannons are a good option, and, to take a page from Chaos, maybe autocannons too.

I think I might actually give them Tank Hunters or Monster Hunters chosen at the time of deployment, or give them PE like you said. Assault Cannons would be nice and unique, much like Sternguard Special Ammunition.

Sternguard ammo would make heavy bolters far more interesting. Increased range, incendiary, poison, they could handle a quite varied range of targets.

I like the idea behind these guys, heavy bolters+ special ammo= so much win

 jhe90 wrote:
Sternguard ammo would make heavy bolters far more interesting. Increased range, incendiary, poison, they could handle a quite varied range of targets.

Except Sternguard Special ammo is what makes Sternguard Sternguard. I am not giving these guys something that makes another unit special. I think giving them Hellfire Rounds would be okay, but for a small price.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Sternguard ammo would make heavy bolters far more interesting. Increased range, incendiary, poison, they could handle a quite varied range of targets.

Except Sternguard Special ammo is what makes Sternguard Sternguard. I am not giving these guys something that makes another unit special. I think giving them Hellfire Rounds would be okay, but for a small price.

Still as put earlier less mobile, vunrable to assult and no combi weapons. Not quite on there lawn

I'm not convinced they should be mobile; the whole thing with Sternguard is their flexibility and mobility (i.e. rapid fire weapons with special ammo and combi-bolters).

These guys won't have that - I mean, okay, they'll have 2 attacks because veterans but that doesn't mean much without close combat weapons, and especially not if they're expensive.

I'd make them specialise in static firepower and durability. Slow and purposeful treads on the toes of Centurion Warsuits.


Making them "just devastators but better" is an issue, but as long as they have different weapon options you have a difference between them, especially if they're in the elites slot.

I'd be tempted to give them some sort of reinforced power armour and/or some sort of ammo dump effect. The idea is that these guys get deployed front and centre and actively draw fire onto themselves (as opposed to devastators who don't want to get shot at) or Sternguard/Vanguard (who stay mobile).

I kind of see them as a 'move up, plant the flag, then murder everything' type unit - give them medium-range weapons (assault cannon, multimeltas, etc) so they have to move up, but don't make them relentless so they have to move up, stop, then start shooting next turn.

Did a squad like this a few years back (called them Hearthguard). I think we put them at 25-30 points each. They were a force to be reckoned with, but at the end of the day were still (very) expensive Marines.

I don' know why everyone is so opposed to BS 5. Even if they only had BS 5/ Ld 9 instead of the Attack boost per normal veterans?

My thing is that they need something special that only they have. Sternguard get their special ammunition, Vanguard Veterans have Heroic Intervention, even if the former is actually desirable and the latter doesn't get talked about. What is something "devastator- esque" that we can tack on to give them a simple, flavorful boost?

Possibly something to reflect the fact that they bring down a rain of heavy fire... A special rule based on weapon, maybe?

Heavy Bolter: Gains Rending and Shred
Plasma Cannon: Gains Twin-Linked
Multi-Melta: Gains Lance
Lascannon: Gains Tank Hunter
Missile Launcher: Gains Monster Hunter and Rending
Grav-Cannon: Gains Pinning
Assault Cannon: Gains Pinning and Monster Hunter

The issue with devastators is the they are outclassed by nearly everything and they don't really do anything than can't be covered by another unit that either hits harder or is more durable.