Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, it's been years so I really feel like a complete noob at this game again. In 1500 points I saw a local player running 3 imperial Knights. It seems like lords of war and Titans are now what everyone takes but I don't have that kind of cash to throw down just to win a game. I have basically: 2 daemon princes, Belakor, chaos lord of Nurgle with fist and claw, chaos Sorceror with power weapon, Obliterators, havocs, and melta gun bikes, flesh hounds of Khorne...basically I average only 2-5 anti tank units but it feels like all these new Titans will just kill my army in 1-2 rounds. What kind of strategies do armies have against Titans/ lords of war? I just feel Belakor isn't worth taking anymore with all the Str 10 1 shot weapons

You realize Be'lakor has Eternal Warrior right?

And in a game where every weapon can one-shot you, being invisible is awesome.

Wow, well now that I know that, I think he is usable again now I feel like I might have a chance. Time to rekindle the ancient flames, didn't see that

Knight can be tar pitted by cheap mobs, rendering them useless. Pretty sure Daemons have the cheapest mobs, at 0 points per summoned unit.

SJ

Tarpitting them seems to be a good way forward for daemons, as we mostly lack the tools to destroy them. Be'lakor and screamers (with invisibility and/or grimoire) can get some work done, but it is a risk. A buffed D-thirster or Lord of change (with the staff, and decent rewards) can also do it, but again it's risky.

People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

People seem to think the ability to kill 5 models per turn on average is game breaking.

SJ

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

Say you summon some Demonettes to tar-pit an Imperial Knight - it will kill 1-2 Demonettes with it's regular attacks, and then if you've properly spaced the Demonettes around the base of the Knight it will maybe kill another 2 with Stomp (it's only a Small Blast template remember). Your biggest problem will come from Demonic Instability, but even then you're probably unlucky if you don't hold it up for 2 turns. The biggest threat from Stomp is not to the unit doing the tar-pit, but to an expensive nearby model that is in the stomp threat range. If a Knight rolls a 3 for the amount of stomps it gets, it has a pretty big threat radius. Just make sure to keep the Soul Grinders/Heralds/Monstrous Creatures well away from the Knight so it doesnt reach out and stomp something critical with good rolling.

summoned plague bearers might be an option with their touch of rust

 GoonBandito wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

then if you've properly spaced the Demonettes around the base of the Knight it will maybe kill another 2 with Stomp (it's only a Small Blast template remember).

It's a melee stomp though. There are specific shortest distance rules you must follow when charging and your guys have to get into base contact if able. The result is that almost every charge has models touching each other, either due to a charge or on the pile-in. The fewest a stomp should target is 3 unless hardly any remain.

Trying to tarpit knights in combat with Daemons... not a good recipe.
Plaguebearers (touch of rust) or Horrors (better invulnerable save) are probably your best bet for pure tarpitting.
Plaguebearers do ~1 glance in an average combat: the Knight kills 1 with normal attacks and 4 with stomps on average dice. They are then testing instability on LD 2-3. you probably die.

If you can get the Grimoire / CE on summoned daemons its a different story, but you're just holding out until that Stomp 6 comes along.

On the other hand, better strategies include...
Don't charge in to combat - just get in its way. You can weather its shooting reasonably well with some psychic buffs. So summon in some Daemonettes or Seekers, run your 9+ inches in the movement phase, and form a line in front of the offending Knight.

Screamers can also accomplish this - just 3 models still forms a 11" barrier at maximum coherency. Bonus points because the Knight can't totally ignore you due to armourbane attacks.


Other things that can put the hurt on a Knight
Belakor, especially with invis. The knight is hitting on 5's / 6's, and Bella only gets punked on a Destroyer 6. He can just about one-round a knight, but 2 is probably necessary.
Many screamers: 8 screamers, prescience and/or Misfortune, Cursed Earth, Grimoire.. now that might kill a knight in 2 turns.
Herald of Khorne/Slaanesh w/ Armourbane reward, can put 2-3 HP by themselves.
Soulgrinders... not recommended unless you're going all in with 3-4 other units to destroy it in one turn.

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, a bit risky (you'll need to survive 1-2 D-weapon hits and hope he doesn't roll a 6) but if he survives that then the knight goes down.
Other daemon Princes w/ Armourbane and/or Iron Arm... I've had one very successful Daemon Prince with Precognition, Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Greater Etherblade and Armourbane go around massacring 4 knights in a single battle..., but getting such a good combo of powers can't be relied on :(.
Misfortune + ~15 Flesh Hounds can kill a knight pretty easily on the charge.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

People seem to think the ability to kill 5 models per turn on average is game breaking.

SJ

Not gamebreaking, but not maintainable for many tarpit units.

Once you add in the casualties from combat resolution then daemon blobs should be expecting to lose 10 models a turn on average. That mean's you will tie a knight up for 1 turn, 2 at most, for a cost of nearly 200 points.

If you can buff the unit to give them a 2/3++ save, then it would be ok, but if not then I don't think it will be worth it.

Be'lakor is your best bet. Just try to weaken the knight first if possible, so he can try and take it down before stomps happen.

You can also just keep feeding the knight summoned units. A rhino from imp.13 with the malefic summoning relic helps too!

Kharn can kill an Imperial Knight in one turn on the charge. The bigger problem is getting him into combat. Plus he may well die from the resulting explosion.

To be honest, even if a daemonette pack holds it up for one turn - so he has to assault them instead of bypassing them - it's worth it if you score a tactical objective that the knight could have reached otherwise. You can spread out a newly summoned pack quite far with a rerollable D6+3" run...

i've done similar things with termagant spawn packs - it's amazing how long it takes to cut through 2-3 units, ranked up one behind the next behind the next, when you have to charge them to kill them...

If you actually want to take a knight down, the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage works well. If you get the drop on a normal Knight, it only gets 3 attacks and with WS10 it'll probably only land 1 hit, which means only a Deathblow will kill you. Yes, it can happen but the odds are massively in your favour, and if the Great Axe of Khorne swings, that knight is going to die.

You may lose the bloodthirster to stomp attacks, or the explosion, but trade a knight for a greater daemon and you're winning.

Some screening units will help to ensure you get the charge, not the other way around.

If you are running a combined CSM/Daemon force, could you use a big blob of 35 cultists (their maximum unit size) with an attached Dark Apostle to give them fearless? That big blob of cultists could maybe try and assault the Knight. Sure they won't be able to do anything, but that is a lot of bodies for the Knight to to get through each round.

 Slaphead wrote:
If you are running a combined CSM/Daemon force, could you use a big blob of 35 cultists (their maximum unit size) with an attached Dark Apostle to give them fearless? That big blob of cultists could maybe try and assault the Knight. Sure they won't be able to do anything, but that is a lot of bodies for the Knight to to get through each round.

The issue with this is that stomp makes for a pretty decent character removal method. It will work until the stomps manage to take him out.

Pretty sure I recommended tarpitting Knights with summoned daemons, not sure how summon daemons count as a 200pt unit since you don't actually pay for them. Also, since when did "tarpitting" involve actual melee? As far as I aware, stopping a 370+ point unit from doing anything useful for a turn IS tarpitting, because the unit is stuck. Who cares if its just for 1 turn or 2, or 3, or the rest of the game! You are using units that you spawned mid game to neutralize a Big Box Model, that's like a freebie.

See that box you are sitting? I'm that guy standing outside of it telling you where to think.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure I recommended tarpitting Knights with summoned daemons, not sure how summon daemons count as a 200pt unit since you don't actually pay for them. Also, since when did "tarpitting" involve actual melee? As far as I aware, stopping a 370+ point unit from doing anything useful for a turn IS tarpitting, because the unit is stuck. Who cares if its just for 1 turn or 2, or 3, or the rest of the game! You are using units that you spawned mid game to neutralize a Big Box Model, that's like a freebie.

See that box you are sitting? I'm that guy standing outside of it telling you where to think.

SJ

You great idea falls flat though, when you realise that you are not stopping the knight at all.
10 daemons, when charged by a knight, are almost certainly going to be removed in his assault phase, or your next one. Consolidtion move afterwards means you've slowed it, but not by a great amount.

As knights can just tag the daemons with their heavy stubber to prime them for the charge, and still fire their main weapons at more important targets, you are not stopping it from firing. You deny it about 6 inches, at the cost of a summoned unit...

These 'free' units are not actually free, you are investing a lot of your power dice in them, and you are throwing them away every turn with very little benefit.

Tell me how to think all you like, I'm not buying it as I find your idea to be lacking.

Don't even worry about trying to tarpit them...just kill them outright with your daemon princes. Knights are AV13, with 6 hullpoints and no save. They hit at I4 with a whopping 3 WS4 attacks, only 1/6 of which ignore your invul saves. Throw invisibility on if you need it, or just punk them at I6/7/8. Gang up on them one at a time until they die, while using your summoned/other units to grab objectives and kill the rest of your opponent's army.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Don't even worry about trying to tarpit them...just kill them outright with your daemon princes. Knights are AV13, with 6 hullpoints and no save. They hit at I4 with a whopping 3 WS4 attacks, only 1/6 of which ignore your invul saves. Throw invisibility on if you need it, or just punk them at I6/7/8. Gang up on them one at a time until they die, while using your summoned/other units to grab objectives and kill the rest of your opponent's army.

Daemon princes are only S6 so can't even hurt a IK normally and have to smash it. So they get a single S10 attack against it a turn. Not even 2-3 princes at once will kill a IK. And then the Knight has S10 so will just instant death a DP with a single wound.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Don't even worry about trying to tarpit them...just kill them outright with your daemon princes. Knights are AV13, with 6 hullpoints and no save. They hit at I4 with a whopping 3 WS4 attacks, only 1/6 of which ignore your invul saves. Throw invisibility on if you need it, or just punk them at I6/7/8. Gang up on them one at a time until they die, while using your summoned/other units to grab objectives and kill the rest of your opponent's army.

Daemon princes are only S6 so can't even hurt a IK normally and have to smash it. So they get a single S10 attack against it a turn. Not even 2-3 princes at once will kill a IK. And then the Knight has S10 so will just instant death a DP with a single wound.

The only way, as others have said, would be to get iron arm to boost your strength. Still wouldn't recommend it though as your 'counter' will only have a 50% chance of actually being able to do their job each game.

If you need a chaos unit to take down a knight, then Be'lakor is the guy for the job. Just try to have buffs on hand to tip the balance in your favour.

On the CSM front, try deepstriking small Oblit squads (1-2 models max) around the knight. Your opponent cannot ignore them thanks to the melta and will inevitably have to make a hard choice as to the shield facing (especially if you can approach yet another facing with your bikes); and if you can DS in a couple of squads at once (or even just one, with oblits/havocs in your startzone firing lascannons or something), you can do some serious damage. The oblits don't really want to be in combat, but have a good chance of punching in a wound or two before getting stomped. Plus, the oblits offer utility beyond the knight.

The only CSM unit that really worked for me as a knight tarpit is the lowly zombie - even 15 -20 should tie up the knight for at least a couple of turns. You do have the Typhus tax (who does not want to be anywhere near said knight), but he also has utility in his own right. You don't mention having these units in your OP, so it could just be wishful thinking on my part...But there it is.

I must be the only one that sees a stalled Knight as a useless Knight. Losing few model a turn to keep tge thing from murdering your army is a good thing, in my opinion. It seems like on this forum its alway about elimination, not neutralization.

You can stop a Warlord Titan with Grots, after all.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I must be the only one that sees a stalled Knight as a useless Knight. Losing few model a turn to keep tge thing from murdering your army is a good thing, in my opinion. It seems like on this forum its alway about elimination, not neutralization.

You can stop a Warlord Titan with Grots, after all.

SJ

No, you can't.

HH Book 5 page 263

Towering Monstrosity (Warlord)
The Warlord Titan's colossal size, incalculable power and superior design make it both extremely difficult to harm from ground level, with its vital systems elevated far above the heads and hulls of those upon the battlefield below it, while its legs are plated with metres thick armour to prevent it from being assailed by infantry or laid low by explosive charges. As well as the usual rules for Super-heavy Walkers, the following rules are also in effect:
• The Warlord Titan may only be hit on a 6 by Infantry and
Monstrous Creatures of any type in an assault, and on a 5 or 6 by
Super-heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures in an assault.
• The Warlord Titan may never be locked in an assault.
• The Warlord Titan is completely immune to the effects of
Haywire attacks, dangerous terrain, and psychic attacks other than
Witchfire powers, which must attempt to damage it normally.
• The Warlord Titan's Stomp attacks use the Large Blast (s")
template.
• The Warlord Titan's carapace-mounted weapons may not target
models closer than 24" from its hull, unless they are Flyers,
Flying Monstrous Creatures or other Super-heavy vehicles or
Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures.

Plus they have Thunderblitz. You can't stop them just by surrounding them with units.

Yes, you can stop a Warlord with Grots. Just because the Warlord can walk away on its turn does not mean you have to give it space to walk away. It still has to stop at an inch away, and its Stomps are tiny compared to its footprint.

Such closed minds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
Plus they have Thunderblitz. You can't stop them just by surrounding them with units.

SHW don't have Thunderblitz.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People keep talking about tarpitting Knights like they have no attacks and no ability to Stomp.

People seem to think the ability to kill 5 models per turn on average is game breaking.

SJ

That's actually pretty good, given how to hit and all that works out.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Don't even worry about trying to tarpit them...just kill them outright with your daemon princes. Knights are AV13, with 6 hullpoints and no save. They hit at I4 with a whopping 3 WS4 attacks, only 1/6 of which ignore your invul saves. Throw invisibility on if you need it, or just punk them at I6/7/8. Gang up on them one at a time until they die, while using your summoned/other units to grab objectives and kill the rest of your opponent's army.

Daemon princes are only S6 so can't even hurt a IK normally and have to smash it. So they get a single S10 attack against it a turn. Not even 2-3 princes at once will kill a IK. And then the Knight has S10 so will just instant death a DP with a single wound.

Mark Of Khorne + Axe Of Blind Fury will mean a Daemon Prince is hitting on S8 on the charge, and gets an extra D6 attacks...

str 9 because he is furious!