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If I am somehow able to reduce a wraithknight to WS 0 can it still stomp?

"A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows."

Depends if you consider stomp attacks to be "striking blows".

There are references to "striking blows" throughout the assault phase section of the rulebook, and it seems synonymous with making attacks in terms of close combat.

I would say in terms of the rules it seems that no, it could not, although I think HIWPI may be to allow stomp attacks, but not regular close combat attacks.

Probably would depend how much I liked my opponent

in regards to the Wraith Knight, any TO Judge will rule infavor of the eldar cheese.

I'd say that they can't Stomp. The word "any" doesn't leave room for any special attacks either. On page 9 it also says that "a model with WS 0 is incapacitated", which makes it even clearer IMO. I think the wording for striking blows is there just so it can include any and all special attacks too.

 Filch wrote:
in regards to the Wraith Knight, any TO Judge will rule infavor of the eldar cheese.

Then you have a bad TO and you should get a better one.

The model can still stomp as normal. WS has no bearing on stomps. Stomps are not melee attacks as normal.

Now, go ahead and disagree, cuz i know you all will, thats how this site works.

die toten hosen wrote:
The model can still stomp as normal. WS has no bearing on stomps. Stomps are not melee attacks as normal.

The relevance of WS to Stomp attacks isn't really relevant, I would say.

If "striking blows" is synonymous with "making attacks" as it seems then that would extend to disallowing Stomp attacks.

If you think it's not, why is that?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
The model can still stomp as normal. WS has no bearing on stomps. Stomps are not melee attacks as normal.

The relevance of WS to Stomp attacks isn't really relevant, I would say.

If "striking blows" is synonymous with "making attacks" as it seems then that would extend to disallowing Stomp attacks.

If you think it's not, why is that?

Then why can you make Shooting attacks if your WS is 0?

I think what Shine is saying, Is stomp an attack/striking blow or an ability that just trigger at the end. if you think it is an attack/striking blow then your answer is no. If you think is an ability then WS will have no bearing as it is trigger or not.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
The model can still stomp as normal. WS has no bearing on stomps. Stomps are not melee attacks as normal.

The relevance of WS to Stomp attacks isn't really relevant, I would say.

If "striking blows" is synonymous with "making attacks" as it seems then that would extend to disallowing Stomp attacks.

If you think it's not, why is that?

To, the contrary, a relationship between WS 0 and Stomp is the core of the question.

Are Stomps Melee Attacks, or at least tied to it in some way besides timing and only happening while the performing model is Engaged?

From what I've read, the answer is no. In which case, WS of any level does not affect Stomping due to the lack of relationship, much like Vehicle Ramming.

If the question is the relationship between WS 0 and Stomp, it should be clear from the fact that WS has no impact on Stomp in the first place. Stomp doesn't care what the WS is of other models, it's simply an automatic hit. From a fluff perspective, the machine doesn't need to be good at combat to step on people any more than a tank needs to excel at it to run them over.

I think we should be more concerned about what 'incapacitated' means.

Incapacitated is an adjective that describes a state where you don't have the capacity, or ability, to accomplish anything. In game terms WS 0 represents an incapacity to accomplish anything in close combat - defensively and offensively.

So do stomp attacks represent a now 'incapacitated' GMC trying to accomplish something in close combat?

col_impact wrote:
I think we should be more concerned about what 'incapacitated' means.

Incapacitated is an adjective that describes a state where you don't have the capacity, or ability, to accomplish anything. In game terms WS 0 represents an incapacity to accomplish anything in close combat - defensively and offensively.

So do stomp attacks represent a now 'incapacitated' GMC trying to accomplish something in close combat?

One may as well ask if immobilization is a factor of incapacitating as well. It means as much.

This question would carry over to Hammer of Wrath attacks as well.

Charistoph wrote:
To, the contrary, a relationship between WS 0 and Stomp is the core of the question.

If "strike blows" refers specifically to making melee attacks, absolutely. If it refers to making attacks during close combat generally then not really, I think.

That's of course why I pose it on the basis of whether or not striking blows includes Stomp attacks (i.e. making attacks generally during close combat) or not (making melee attacks during close combat).

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I think we should be more concerned about what 'incapacitated' means.

Incapacitated is an adjective that describes a state where you don't have the capacity, or ability, to accomplish anything. In game terms WS 0 represents an incapacity to accomplish anything in close combat - defensively and offensively.

So do stomp attacks represent a now 'incapacitated' GMC trying to accomplish something in close combat?

One may as well ask if immobilization is a factor of incapacitating as well. It means as much.

No. Mobility has nothing to do with the field of close combat. WS 0 means a total inability to function insofar as close combat. WS 0 = close combat incapacitated.



Are stomps part of the field of 'close combat'? Yes.
WS 0 means then you are unable to do stomp attacks. It also means you cannot perform Hammer of Wrath attacks since those also fall under the domain of close combat.

How do we prove that Stomp is 'Striking Blows?'

JinxDragon wrote:
How do we prove that Stomp is 'Striking Blows?'

That doesn't really have to be proven. What only needs to be proven is that the Stomp ability is part of close combat, which is very provable.

Please do so, as it will add more to the discussion.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

LOCKED IN COMBAT

If a unit has one or more models in base contact with an enemy model (for any
reason), then it is locked in combat. Units that are locked in close combat must fight
in the Assault phase. Units are no longer locked in combat if, at end of any phase, they no
longer have any models in base contact with an enemy model.

Units that are locked in combat cannot move in the Movement phase, Run or
shoot in the Shooting phase, and cannot fire Overwatch if charged. Similarly,
models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat – while some commanders
may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the
hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted.

Spoiler:

STOMP

Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp
attack. The Stomp attack is made in addition to the Super-heavy Walker’s normal attacks.
Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step. This does
not grant the model an additional Pile In move at the Initiative 1 step.

So, where does it state that Stomp is Striking Blows? Where does it state that they are Melee Attacks?

Hammer of Wrath is considered an additional Attack as part of the Melee Phase. Stomps are a Special Attack, and not a Melee Attack. That it happens in the Melee Phase is not in question. What is in question is how it is dependent on WS in any form or that WS 0 disables ALL types of Attacks in the Assault Phase.

Does WS 0 disable Overwatch? I do not see how, yet this would be applying the same principle from the perspective of Stomps.

The closest I can find to resembling a definition of Striking Blows is in "More Than One Weapon":

In this case, Stomp does not qualify for such a definition.

Stomp attack is a special attack that occurs in close combat.

WS 0 means that you are incapacitated in close combat.

You cannot Stomp while incapacitated, because you are trying to invoke an ability in close combat while you are defined as incapable of any ability in close combat.

WS 0 means no stomps.

Stomps are attacks, if you have WS0 you cannot make attacks.

Further stomps are optional, so other than the rules saying they are an attack and you may not make attacks you may not choose to stomp as it is an attack.

blaktoof wrote:
WS 0 means no stomps.

Stomps are attacks, if you have WS0 you cannot make attacks.

Further stomps are optional, so other than the rules saying they are an attack and you may not make attacks you may not choose to stomp as it is an attack.

show me where it says stomps are optional.

WS0 means no attacks, because you cannot roll to hit. stomps do not roll to hit therefore bypassing this. "incapacitated" is being used a fluff term and explanation, there is no effect detailed in the USR section of the BRB or otherwise deifned outside of a fluff based explanation.

Charistoph wrote:
The closest I can find to resembling a definition of Striking Blows is in "More Than One Weapon":

Spoiler:

Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

In this case, Stomp does not qualify for such a definition.

That's what I was after. Agreed, with this information.

col_impact, the rulebook actually defines for us what or means when it states the model is incapacitated with what follows after the semicolon; that they are hit automatically and may not strike blows, which Christoph has found probably the closest thing to a definition for.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
The closest I can find to resembling a definition of Striking Blows is in "More Than One Weapon":

Spoiler:

Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

In this case, Stomp does not qualify for such a definition.

That's what I was after. Agreed, with this information.

col_impact, the rulebook actually defines for us what or means when it states the model is incapacitated with what follows after the semicolon; that they are hit automatically and may not strike blows, which Christoph has found probably the closest thing to a definition for.

Incorrect, we are told that a model with a WS 0 has no ability in the domain of close combat and is incapacitated. Invoking a stomp attack ability in close combat is not allowed by the BRB.

Moreover, "blows" and "strike blows" is not really defined as the term "blows" is used in the BRB loosely as a catch-all for close combat attacks that threaten damage which include HOW and Stomp.



Trading blows or striking blows means 'achieving damaging affect from close combat attacks' (or really just exchanging close combat attacks) as far as the BRB is concerned. A Stomp is included in "trading blows" or "striking blows" against your foe. Otherwise you are saying that a Stomp is not an attack and that it does not threaten or potentially deliver damage to your foe. A blow is damage delivered (at least potentially) by an attack. A miss is not a blow delivered.

die toten hosen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
WS 0 means no stomps.

Stomps are attacks, if you have WS0 you cannot make attacks.

Further stomps are optional, so other than the rules saying they are an attack and you may not make attacks you may not choose to stomp as it is an attack.

show me where it says stomps are optional.

WS0 means no attacks, because you cannot roll to hit. stomps do not roll to hit therefore bypassing this. "incapacitated" is being used a fluff term and explanation, there is no effect detailed in the USR section of the BRB or otherwise deifned outside of a fluff based explanation.

Sure, I'll show you right now.

Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp
attack. The Stomp attack is made in addition to the Super-heavy Walker’s normal attacks.
Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step. This does
not grant the model an additional Pile In move at the Initiative 1 step.

die toten hosen wrote:
show me where it says stomps are optional.

First sentence of 'Stomp':

Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack.

'May', not 'must'.

 Whacked wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
WS 0 means no stomps.

Stomps are attacks, if you have WS0 you cannot make attacks.

Further stomps are optional, so other than the rules saying they are an attack and you may not make attacks you may not choose to stomp as it is an attack.

show me where it says stomps are optional.

WS0 means no attacks, because you cannot roll to hit. stomps do not roll to hit therefore bypassing this. "incapacitated" is being used a fluff term and explanation, there is no effect detailed in the USR section of the BRB or otherwise deifned outside of a fluff based explanation.

Sure, I'll show you right now.

Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp
attack. The Stomp attack is made in addition to the Super-heavy Walker’s normal attacks.
Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step. This does
not grant the model an additional Pile In move at the Initiative 1 step.

fair enough, my mistake.

they can still stomp regardless of WS.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect, we are told that a model with a WS 0 has no ability in the domain of close combat and is incapacitated. Invoking a stomp attack ability in close combat is not allowed by the BRB.

Erm, no. What the rules actually say is:

"Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’)."

So in fact we're told that a model with Weapon Skill 0 has no ability in that field, i.e. the field of Weapon Skill. Weapon Skill is irrelevant for the resolution of Stomp attacks.

Moreover, "blows" and "strike blows" is not really defined as the term "blows" is used in the BRB loosely as a catch-all for close combat attacks that threaten damage which include HOW and Stomp.

Spoiler:

5. Assault phase. During the Assault phase, units may move into combat
against enemy units in the Charge sub-phase and trade blows with them in the
Fight sub-phase.

Stomp attacks are attacks that threaten damage, but are not close combat attacks - they're simply a special type of attack. Also, that trading blows is done in the Fight sub-phase does not define every action taking place therein as also necessarily being trading blows.

Trading blows or striking blows means 'achieving damaging affect from close combat attacks' (or really just exchanging close combat attacks) as far as the BRB is concerned. A Stomp is included in "trading blows" or "striking blows" against your foe. Otherwise you are saying that a Stomp is not an attack and that it does not threaten or potentially deliver damage to your foe. A blow is damage delivered (at least potentially) by an attack. A miss is not a blow delivered.

Charistoph has already provided something helpful for defining striking blows, in that when striking blows a Melee weapon must be selected. Models use Melee weapons for close combat attacks. Must models with the ability to Stomp and more than one weapon ever choose which to attack with for that purpose? Clearly not, so Stomp attacks cannot be striking blows.

col_impact wrote:WS 0 means that you are incapacitated in close combat.

Not literally. Literally, incapacitated means "they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows."

col_impact wrote:You cannot Stomp while incapacitated, because you are trying to invoke an ability in close combat while you are defined as incapable of any ability in close combat.

I don't remember Stomp saying it cannot be used when incapacitated, which paragraph is it in? Even linking it to WS or to Attacks in general would work.

blaktoof wrote:Stomps are attacks, if you have WS0 you cannot make attacks.

They are attacks, yes, but they are not Attacks generated from the Characteristic or using any Weapon. In other words, it does not use the WS trait at all.

col_impact wrote:Incorrect, we are told that a model with a WS 0 has no ability in the domain of close combat and is incapacitated.

Incorrect. A model that has WS 0 "is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows." I do not ever see where it has no ability in the domain of close combat, though any normal abilities in that area can easily be seen as such. In other words, close combat normally involves "striking blows" with Melee Weapons based on either Attacks of the model or their own special rules (ex: Meltabombs).

Stomp, however, is a different fish. It is a Unit Type special rule that is not reliant on Weapons, Attacks stat, or the WS stat. It is not listed as a Melee Attack, but a Special Attack with no relationship with or Close Combat (aside from Timing and being Engaged).

col_impact wrote:Invoking a stomp attack ability in close combat is not allowed by the BRB.

Prove the relationship besides timing and position to support the statement.

col_impact wrote:Moreover, "blows" and "strike blows" is not really defined as the term "blows" is used in the BRB loosely as a catch-all for close combat attacks that threaten damage which include HOW and Stomp.

First you say it is not really defined, then you say it IS defined... Which is it, defined or not really?

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

5. Assault phase. During the Assault phase, units may move into combat
against enemy units in the Charge sub-phase and trade blows with them in the Fight sub-phase.

Trading blows or striking blows means 'achieving damaging affect from close combat attacks' (or really just exchanging close combat attacks) as far as the BRB is concerned. A Stomp is included in "trading blows" or "striking blows" against your foe. Otherwise you are saying that a Stomp is not an attack and that it does not threaten or potentially deliver damage to your foe. A blow is damage delivered (at least potentially) by an attack. A miss is not a blow delivered.

Wow, you got that from that tiny little sentence? Interesting...

See, when I actually review all the rules in the Assault Phase section, it's all about using Weapons with WS to generate Melee Attacks (aside from the bit about Overwatch, of course) to be used in close combat. I do not see anything about affecting damage achieved by attacks that can extend beyond close combat (which Stomp can and does).