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Can a model take a cover save against a Stomp attack?

There seem to be two schools of thought on this issue.

School 1: Stomp is a close combat attack (the attack is made in close combat while engaged in combat during the fight sub-phase and assigned an initiative step like all close combat attacks) and as such you cannot take a cover save against Stomp.

School 2: Stomp is a special attack that is not actually a close combat attack and you can take a cover save against it (nowhere is it disallowed)

Stomp is not a close combat attack (close combat attacks are ones you make using WS as defined by the Attacks Characteristic).

Therefore you get cover saves from Stomp attacks.

Only on a 2-5 result.

 Happyjew wrote:
Only against a successful wound on a 2-5 result.

Minor fix

To be a bit more precise with my answer.

A model is able to take a cover save against wounds/penetrating hits caused from a Stomp attack (only applicable on a 2-5 result). However, in most cases it will not be obscured and as such will not have LoS based cover. As such in most cases it will only get a cover save from Stealth/Shrouded or wargear/rules that grant an inherent cover save.

Like if they were already Jinking from earlier in the turn?

Given not everything that happens at an I step is a close combat attack, school one fails at least one logical test.

School two is correct, with the caveat already given - a lack of "firing model" means Los based cover saves will not function.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Like if they were already Jinking from earlier in the turn?

Correct, however since Stomp does not target a unit, they would not be able to Jink in response to Stomp.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Like if they were already Jinking from earlier in the turn?

Correct, however since Stomp does not target a unit, they would not be able to Jink in response to Stomp.

And there is also Stealth/Shrouded combos like Stealth Suits to consider in this as well.

This is confusing.
Are players actually asking for a cover save from a special close combat attack?
Or is this satire?

 warhead01 wrote:
This is confusing.
Are players actually asking for a cover save from a special close combat attack?
Or is this satire?

It was spawned from another thread going on that is discussing reducing a GMC to WS0 - it cannot therefore use it's normal attacks, but the debate is on Stomp, with some asserting that it's not a close combat attack.

Satire is always a fine line on the internet I feel.

I wasn't sure.
I saw the other thread but thought this was some kind of inside joke.
It was my understanding that cover saves were only granted to units who were hit by shooting attacks, which ever kind of shooting attacks. Stomp isn't listed any where I have seen as a shooting attack. Was it faq'ed? If so I missed it.

Stomp is s special attack that happens at the initiative 1 step. It cam only be used in close combat so simple logic can say it is a close combat attack. Now with regards to the WS 0. When reduced that low you can no longer stroke blows. However this rule exists mainly for basic troop types. It wasn't created with GC in mind getting reduced that low. Since it doesn't use WS and can still be made. Stomp gets the best of both worlds here as do all SH and GC.

 warhead01 wrote:
I wasn't sure.
I saw the other thread but thought this was some kind of inside joke.
It was my understanding that cover saves were only granted to units who were hit by shooting attacks, which ever kind of shooting attacks. Stomp isn't listed any where I have seen as a shooting attack. Was it faq'ed? If so I missed it.

Cover Saves are allowed for any Attack that does not have Ignore Cover. Close Combat Attacks have Ignore Cover. However, that does not mean that if it is not Shooting, it must be a Close Combat Attack. We have nothing stating as such, anyway.

Stomp is in another category, that of a Special Attack, and there aren't many of them. The only relationship it has to close combat attacks is timing and location, nothing else. It happens during an Initiative Step, when close combat attacks are used. It happens when the model is engaged, which does not allow for Shooting Attacks. However, it does not list itself as a close combat attack, nor does it use any of the model's characteristics, such as WS or A, to define itself.

mhalko1 wrote:
Stomp is s special attack that happens at the initiative 1 step. It cam only be used in close combat so simple logic can say it is a close combat attack. Now with regards to the WS 0. When reduced that low you can no longer stroke blows. However this rule exists mainly for basic troop types. It wasn't created with GC in mind getting reduced that low. Since it doesn't use WS and can still be made. Stomp gets the best of both worlds here as do all SH and GC.

I should point out that it can be used outside of close combat. While the Stomper must be Engaged in close combat to start, the Stomps can extend beyond the Engagement of the Stomper, and hit those not Engaged or even Engaged in another Combat..

"Cover Saves are allowed for any Attack that does not have Ignore Cover. Close Combat Attacks have Ignore Cover. However, that does not mean that if it is not Shooting, it must be a Close Combat Attack. We have nothing stating as such, anyway. "
Which rule book are do you have?
This might be where my confusion is coming from.
The hard back rule book page 52, doesn't use the ignore cover special rule as a special rule, it just says, Models in close combat do not get cover saves and cannot go to ground. ( as there's no place to hide.)
Previous to that. regarding cover saves page 37, It says, targets need to be at least 25% obscured from to firer to get a cover save.
I'm not trying to be dense I read what you've posted as very broad blanket statements.
I guess my view is clear enough, that if Stomp isn't listed as a shooting attack then no cover saves apply and in a lot of cases even if it was cover saves wouldn't apply due to targets not being 25% obscured by cover as most things that Stomp are very large. (No ones hiding much of anywhere with in a few inches of a Stompa...)

Yes the stomps can engage those outside of combat but the attack cannot attack if there was no combat initially. It's the same as blast weapons. The cannot target into close combat but if it scatters the damage is still resolved.

Now if the OP is talking about his unit getting hit when it's out of combat then that's a different story

 warhead01 wrote:
"Cover Saves are allowed for any Attack that does not have Ignore Cover. Close Combat Attacks have Ignore Cover. However, that does not mean that if it is not Shooting, it must be a Close Combat Attack. We have nothing stating as such, anyway. "
Which rule book are do you have?
This might be where my confusion is coming from.
The hard back rule book page 52, doesn't use the ignore cover special rule as a special rule, it just says, Models in close combat do not get cover saves and cannot go to ground. ( as there's no place to hide.)

I was just using the short form for convenience. Is there any difference between Ignore Cover and how close combat attacks do not allow Cover Saves?

 warhead01 wrote:
Previous to that. regarding cover saves page 37, It says, targets need to be at least 25% obscured from to firer to get a cover save.

And Stealth and Shrouded provide a Cover Save without being Obscured. Did I say or imply otherwise?

 warhead01 wrote:
I'm not trying to be dense I read what you've posted as very broad blanket statements.

I don't know, some were quite specific, or rather specifically pointing out the lack of connections you seem to be making. One reason I stated, "However, that does not mean that if it is not Shooting, it must be a Close Combat Attack. We have nothing stating as such, anyway."

 warhead01 wrote:
I guess my view is clear enough, that if Stomp isn't listed as a shooting attack then no cover saves apply and in a lot of cases even if it was cover saves wouldn't apply due to targets not being 25% obscured by cover as most things that Stomp are very large. (No ones hiding much of anywhere with in a few inches of a Stompa...)

Talk about very broad blanket statements. What makes a non-Shooting Attack a Close Combat Attack?

 warhead01 wrote:

The hard back rule book page 52, doesn't use the ignore cover special rule as a special rule, it just says, Models in close combat do not get cover saves and cannot go to ground. ( as there's no place to hide.)

Actually, it says they do not get Cover Saves against close combat attacks. Stomp is its own thing: a Stomp. Provided you have an applicable cover save (say, you Jinked earlier in the turn, or have Shrouded), you may still take a cover save vs Stomps.

This would apply to stomps against units in ruins also I assume?

I'd say they give them to guys outside the combat naturally (it'd be rather unfair otherwise), so giving them to guys in combat works too because cover saves aren't disallowed merely by being locked in combat. The end result is the same, but they're disallowed for a different reason.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Actually, it says they do not get Cover Saves against close combat attacks. Stomp is its own thing: a Stomp. Provided you have an applicable cover save (say, you Jinked earlier in the turn, or have Shrouded), you may still take a cover save vs Stomps.

It's uncanny how similar your phrasing and sentence structure is to your posting style a year and a half ago. Yay for consistency!

 Jimsolo wrote:
Actually, the rule is that you don't get cover saves from CC attacks. If you are in CC and somehow suffer a wound from a shooting attack (blast scatter, Karamazov, etc) then you can still take any applicable cover save.

FratHammer wrote:
This would apply to stomps against units in ruins also I assume?

Yes, unless a vehicl when you would need to be obscured, which isn't possible as there is no firing model here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FratHammer wrote:
This would apply to stomps against units in ruins also I assume?

Yes, unless a vehicle when you would need to be obscured, which isn't possible as there is no firing model here.

If it was one of the ones the Stomper was Engaging, I would agree, but Stomps can hit models up sufficiently far enough away for the Vehicle to be in Cover and outside of Engagement.

Where is the firing model though? How are you working out if the model is obscured?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where is the firing model though? How are you working out if the model is obscured?

Who said anything about firing? Cover Saves are only not used against close combat attacks, not only used against shooting attacks.

As for the Stomper, he's not in the ruins when he starts stomping.

It's more - how do you work out if you are obscured? Please answer that. If you can show how you are obscured then you can grant Los based cover saves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's more - how do you work out if you are obscured? Please answer that. If you can show how you are obscured then you can grant Los based cover saves.

How else do you work out being obscured? Stomp says nothing about changing this, so it would use the standard methods.

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's more - how do you work out if you are obscured? Please answer that. If you can show how you are obscured then you can grant Los based cover saves.

How else do you work out being obscured? Stomp says nothing about changing this, so it would use the standard methods.

I think the point is that the standard method requires a firing model to draw line of sight from, and in the case of Stomp there is no firing model as such.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's more - how do you work out if you are obscured? Please answer that. If you can show how you are obscured then you can grant Los based cover saves.

How else do you work out being obscured? Stomp says nothing about changing this, so it would use the standard methods.

I think the point is that the standard method requires a firing model to draw line of sight from, and in the case of Stomp there is no firing model as such.

If there are no "firing models" how are you allocating wounds to the unit? Being in range of a firing model and being able to draw line of sight from a firing model is required.

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's more - how do you work out if you are obscured? Please answer that. If you can show how you are obscured then you can grant Los based cover saves.

How else do you work out being obscured? Stomp says nothing about changing this, so it would use the standard methods.

Please define the "standard method" yo uare using

Note, you cannot reference a "firing model" when using this "standard method" due to the utter absence of any firing model.

Col - your rules reference has no relevance. There are no firing models, therefore the rule "if none..." is a nullity.

Since Stomps can only occur during combat, are a special type of attack that is resolved in fight subphase, and cover saves are not allowed for attacks during combat, it is safe to assume that no cover saves are allowed for getting stepped on by an oversized boot. In order to receive a cover save, you have to prove that a Stomp is a shooting attack and that the target is obscured. Neither condition can be met.

SJ