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One of the things that consistently bother me is how people implicitly say "here is my army in your grasp, now feth it because I don't care" by Deepstriking their army into certain death. Come on, are players that brainless that they don't realize putting a squad of shooting Terminators in front of a Canifex brood with no support is never going to end well? And why people keep Deeptriking the Dreadknight, only to have him die in the next turn and never having the chance to use is Teleporter 30" move.

Guys, if you are reading this, be cautious when performing Deepstrike. Such ability can be helpful against Tau and Necrons who are bad in melee but have insane shooting range, but against melee blobs like Tyranids or Khorne daemons, you had better re-think that.

I have no idea what your point is, and I'm a heavy user of Deep Strike via my Grey Knights army. Are you saying that your opponents are not Deep Striking with good tactical forethought? Or are you implying that when you Deep Strike, it goes poorly?

Either, you post seems more like a rant than a call for discussion.

SJ

Tell me, have you ever heard of this thing called Skyhammer?

DSing in front of a Tau army is generally not well advised. They have a lot of big guns and typically a lot of interceptor on said big guns. I think most Tau players put it as standard on everything that can take it.

That said I love DSing armies and its my preferred army style in 30k. Orbital assault or Terror Assault is my jam, yo! There is a lot of no guts no glory, fortune favors the bold attitude with these armies. Done right it can win you the game.

Sounds like you are venting, but to talk tactics. There is a safe place to deep strike and not so safe place to deep strike. You should also consider what is the payload of the drop pod and where would it be most effective. Personally, I only use a couple drop pods in games. Since the new space marine codex came out I know more players have gone to using them as generic transports for units, even non-space marine type models. (Personally, I don't think a non-space marine unit should be able to use a drop pod. The harness inside the drop pod are designed for marine power armor, but that is besides the point)

There are a could basic tactics with drop pods. First, delivery vehicle. You use it for what it is designed for. Landing any where on the table. Getting your troops right where you need them the most. I think the drop pod really helps out dreadnoughts. Especially, the Ironclad dreadnought who needs to be able to get up close and personally with a unit. A little more advance tactic is the Forge world dreadnought talon units. They differ from the GW dreadnought units because in the Space marine codex, if a dreadnought numbers more than 1, you can not put it in a drop pod. Where as Forge World says the unit can, but each dreadnought must have its own drop pod but when they enter play they become 3 individual units. This is nice because you can fit 3 elite units with transports in to a single Elite slot in the CAD.

Second, artillery pod? The deathwind missile launcher and deathstorm pods should not be taken lightly. These work great for supporting other drop pod troops. If you place them just right, you should be able to get multiples of the guns in on targets. It also functions as an area denial weapon.

Third, empty pod? Throwing an empty pod on the table can be good move if done right. Usually you are trying to land near an objective to claim something that is to far away from the main force to capture. This works especially well in Maelstrom games when you have to achieve the objective during that turn. You get to draw the card and then drop the pod right on the one you need.

I don't see the tactics question, but yea don't drop stuff in stuid places, should make sense. I agree with dreadknight though ive never seen anyone do that.

Dark Angels Deathwing are pretty nasty when they Deep Strike. Their weapons are twin-linked on that turn, and they can run and shoot, or shoot and run (if taken in the Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force). Run and shoot can help greatly with a bad scatter, whereas shoot and run can allow them to shoot up a unit then get out of LOS or at least into cover.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Dark Angels Deathwing are pretty nasty when they Deep Strike. Their weapons are twin-linked on that turn, and they can run and shoot, or shoot and run (if taken in the Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force). Run and shoot can help greatly with a bad scatter, whereas shoot and run can allow them to shoot up a unit then get out of LOS or at least into cover.

Compared to what they used to be, no. Sure, they still get essentially the same benefits as in 6th, but they lost their Turn 1 automatic DS.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Dark Angels Deathwing are pretty nasty when they Deep Strike. Their weapons are twin-linked on that turn, and they can run and shoot, or shoot and run (if taken in the Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force). Run and shoot can help greatly with a bad scatter, whereas shoot and run can allow them to shoot up a unit then get out of LOS or at least into cover.

Compared to what they used to be, no. Sure, they still get essentially the same benefits as in 6th, but they lost their Turn 1 automatic DS.

Yeah, the loss of T1 deep striking was a bad nerf. Being able to run and shoot on the turn they deep strike really doesn't make up for that. Still, I think they are solid, but only if paired with Ravenwing.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Dark Angels Deathwing are pretty nasty when they Deep Strike. Their weapons are twin-linked on that turn, and they can run and shoot, or shoot and run (if taken in the Deathwing Redemption Force or Deathwing Strike Force). Run and shoot can help greatly with a bad scatter, whereas shoot and run can allow them to shoot up a unit then get out of LOS or at least into cover.

Compared to what they used to be, no. Sure, they still get essentially the same benefits as in 6th, but they lost their Turn 1 automatic DS.

Yeah, the loss of T1 deep striking was a bad nerf. Being able to run and shoot on the turn they deep strike really doesn't make up for that. Still, I think they are solid, but only if paired with Ravenwing.

The loss of T1 deepstrike ruined DA for me :( Now im a heretic player

I can see where the OP is coming from, I've seen all sorts of bad decisions from deep strikers.

Try not to have your deepstrikers give the opponent an opportunity to make attacks which would otherwise have been unused (due to range, line of sight, etc).

Likewise if you are trying to use suicide tactics, do a cost/benefit analysis first; maybe you've included some meltacide to help deal with enemy knights. If there are no high value targets to pursue perhaps it is best not to drop them behind enemy lines!

terminators are generally awful at everything so deepstriking them may seem stupid but its that or investing 500p to get a unit of terminators into cc or 400 if your space wolves

deep striking units that can deepstrike shouldnt ever be deploying in your face but the fact is that if they dont they will never be productive. deepstriking units are generally either really campy and never leave where they land really or they are too passive if they dont strike into your face they will probably never kill anyone, they might not even soak up shooting attacks.

as i refer to it "derpstriking" is about the only way to use the standard dreadnaught and up until now that was the fate of jump marines or dark angels veterans. however some armies arent as fortunate and chaos is the best example of an army with units that are basically forced to deepstrike, they cant afford to have units like chaos terminators or khorne beserkers standing around. now granted some people have the kharybdis deathstrike (or whatever its called) so zerkers arent so bad but that isnt readily available.

deepstrike is largely a relic of days gone by that gw has been repurposing to give meaning to cc units with things like skyhammer. back in the day the arms race was nowhere near as bad and infantry units werent being obliterated by the handful. and deepstrike was ment as a way of getting units into a possible situation where they could charge and fight because the mechanics didnt exist to get them into cc beyond the ridiculous items like battlewagons with boarding planks and land raiders.

i think in the future deepstrike will just mean: you get to CC its clear that the intent and games workshop is using formations and special rules/warlord traits to allow for us to get used to the mechanic before they tear down the barrier and just flatout give them deepstrike assault.

Deep Strike is a form of mobility, which allows some units to effectively cross the table without any limits to its speed. When used tactically, it allows a unit to arrive wherever you need it, within a few inches or so. There are a number of mechanics on the game to make Deep Strike a more accurate, more reliable tactic, such as Drop Pod Assault, homing beacons, and detachment or unit special rules. Its up to you to make Deep Strike work for your army, if you chose to use it.

There are also techniques for limiting the impact of scatter, such only Deep Striking small units of 6 or less, placing the first model next to wall so that scatter will either overshoot the terrain or hit dead on, as well as infiltrating beacons, using Servo Skulls, or only Deep Striking units with accurate Deep Strike rules. It also takes practice to work out the excess randomness, to get better at selecting were to arrive.

Is there a specific unit or army you wish to discuss, for a better understanding on the tactics you would need to make Deep Strike work for you army?

SJ

Dropping in assault units without something like skyhammer is a bad idea. When they come in they just get shot to pieces. Assault units are better in a transport with assault vehicle rules. However dropping in a good shooting unit - such ad devs with grav, wraithgaurd with scythes can be effective immediately and can often do a ton of damage.

I'm often amazed at how some people misuse deepstrike - or have the ability to use it properly and don't.

Big fan of deep striking. I have been using it heavily since the IG codex that had doctrines with drop troops(best IG codex to date).
The main tactic I use is overwhelming firepower. I don't halfass it. If I am going to use an army list with Deepstrikers, the list will be built around that concept. I wont just use one or two squads in drop pods or whatever and use them as suicide squads. I never liked the concept of termicide units. I build a list with large numbers of DSers and attempt to cripple my opponent in one fell swoop. It usually works but I have had some failures that had us both laughing so hard there were tears, like the game in 3rd when all three of our terminator units DSd in and were lost in the warp from double 6s.

In modern times, I field the entire army in drop pods or in the case of tau anyone who can DS will with minimal forces left on the table first turn to sucker people in. One reason I think Hazard suits are awesome contrary to popular opinion, here have 6d3 fusion shots at point blank. Or my favorite with a melta support team(could be done just as easily with sternguard) dropping right next to a knight on first turn and inflicting all but one hullpoint followed by a krak missile from the opposite side killing it, wiping over 500 additional points off the table in the ensuing explosion. Not a bad trade for a 210 point squad before he even had a chance to go.

If you drop just one or two units, you are wasting the ability and the points for the squad in most cases. However with some armies there are lynchpin units where if you can hurt them badly enough early on it could mess with their entire game plan. Deathstars are the obvious example.

My rules of deep striking:
1. Large numbers of them
2. As much firepower as they can get for their target
3. Fortune favors the bold.

I've tried it one specific use with my daemons and I will again.

I make sure to have my slower advancing nugle plaguebearers, line troops of bloodletters and hard hitting threats like bloodcrushers, princes and greater daemons advancing and drawing threats out, but staying in cover, behind building, trying to make the enemy advance. Then a unit or 2 of seekers with an icon outflank on the board and a unit or two of daemonettes deep strike in and hit the backline, refused flank or and weaker/exposed units. The Slaanesh greater reward is an assault 2d6@strength 12" attack and each unit has one as well as any heralds. It's a fun suprise.

I find that deep striking backfires as much as it helps. It's especially useless for BA, who want to assault.

Martel732 wrote:
I find that deep striking backfires as much as it helps. It's especially useless for BA, who want to assault.

Remember 5th when people kept making those awful Blood Angel 'DoA' (Descent of Angels/Dead on Arrival) lists and deep struck the whole lot ?

Deep Striking is ok if you want to get something like a squad of terminators, or other 24" range shooting into midfield if you've got a turn 1 deep strike.
Otherwise it's generally suicide, or succeeds in handing your army to your opponent on a piecemeal plate if done en masse.
It's not as if bubble wrap, Coteaz or Interceptor exists either.

Obvious exception is Gate Of Infinity/Draigo Cabs , which is made of win.

Deepstriking shooting units is good (like grav cents, grav devastors) and teleport homers removes the need to worry about placement.

But if your opponent is bringing lots of interceptor fire kill that before dropping your troops.

DS Crisis Suits make up the surgical strike element and act as the hammer to my fire warrior and broadiside anvil. My suits usually just need to drop in, unload their deadly payload (plasma or fusion), and attempt to survive the best they can. Often times as long as the crisis suits can get that turn of shooting off then they have earned their value and just need to be a distraction. If they live to get another round of shooting off then its just gravy. It often depends on how good their thrust move turns out.

As to assault units from deep strike I think they rarely do well unless they can deep strike from reserves. Only exception ive seen is something like the Void Claw formation that can try to DS behind LoS turn 1 and just ambush anything that comes near. For most DS assault units it means your only able to assault on Turn 3 or later and that's if you make your reserves roll turn 2.

Deep Striking, for me, is a common tactic. here is my thinking:

1. I want to saturate you, but i want to do it wherein you only get ONE turn to shoot at most things. I can put a lot of stuff in transports to get some there, but unless I'm committed to the types of units INSIDE those transports and they can perform pretty invariably well, i need to consider bringing help along. thus i deep strike in the other units so that in round two there are too many targets for an enemy that likes to shoot to handle.

2. I find virtue in deep Striking for another reason: Overwatch. This is primarily an issue with Tau BUT any overwatch can be bad if directed at the WRONG unit. So I like to have the ability to give up a throw away unit to absorb Tau (or Dark Angel, just as examples) overwatch. deep Strike puts those throw away units at my disposal when I need them. Most recently this has manifested itself in the form of my Night Lord army which brings three transports with Marines, plus two 14 Raptor Squads behind them for cover, and in round two, the Mutilators and Obliterators drop from the sky, wreaking what havoc they can and ALL simultaneously ready to charge next round. Now you have choices as the enemy. Kill the Dirge Casting Rhinos which stop your overwatch... or shoot at the toughened in cover Raptors. Or... fire at a single Mutilator or Obliterator who just shot his plasma cannon into your face and plans on doing worse very soon. Either way i have more units to charge with and can choose the weakest link to charge and take the overwatch.

3. line Breaker decides enough battles that having the ability is pretty useful. It doesnt come down to just one point all the time, but does more than often enough to make having that kind of utility worthwhile.

4. Deep Striking can be a way to keep your stuff off the board longer. If its a tiny unit and I dont need them immeiately or the risk is greater than the reward i will ty to scatter them off the table. Sure, it means a possibility of losing them. It also means a possibilty 83% of the time of maybe not losing them. So if they would just get wasted as one poster mentioned, try to get them off the table, let the battle progress a little more and then bring them in from ongoing reserves to do some good. This is sort of an emergency measure but there are DEFINITELY times when you wish the reserves would just go away! My very last battle was one such incident. I won 20-5, BUT his only hope was tabling me and he was doing a damn fine job of it. He had plenty enough means to kill anything I had so dropping in to be a target seemed unwise. So i tried to scatter myself off the table to buy myself another round of life and thats at least as useful for NOt LOSING in a game you're up 15 points in! I ended with three models, so the gambit paid off.

I do high risk Deep Strike every chance I get. Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, and I'm considering it with my new Necrons. It has its uses. Suicide squads of Terminators (my Chaos do this) are really just there to piss off my opponent. Nothing says 'I'm gonna get you' like FNP Fearless Terminators with Melee superiority. And every shot there, and there should be a lot of shots that are forced to go into them, is a shot not into my Land Raider with the important squad, or into the heavier units I bring to the table. Shoot at them and you just bought a minimum 12" advance for my other guys. Charge them and my other units will go through the gap made by mandatory pile in moves. It's a strategic decision at the cost of a single unit, and a gamble that frankly makes the game more fun. When it works, it's a great talking point afterwards on how I moved my opponent's army where I wanted to get the point or the win.

Balls of steel are the best ones.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a strategic decision at the cost of a single unit, and a gamble that frankly makes the game more fun.

This is a very important point!

Bartali wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find that deep striking backfires as much as it helps. It's especially useless for BA, who want to assault.

Remember 5th when people kept making those awful Blood Angel 'DoA' (Descent of Angels/Dead on Arrival) lists and deep struck the whole lot ?

Deep Striking is ok if you want to get something like a squad of terminators, or other 24" range shooting into midfield if you've got a turn 1 deep strike.
Otherwise it's generally suicide, or succeeds in handing your army to your opponent on a piecemeal plate if done en masse.
It's not as if bubble wrap, Coteaz or Interceptor exists either.

Obvious exception is Gate Of Infinity/Draigo Cabs , which is made of win.

I never lost to a DoA list. Ever. Even when I rolled poorly. That's how bad it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
", but i want to do it wherein you only get ONE turn to shoot at most things."

Unfortunately, that's often enough.

I can only think of one loss to Dark Angels. Never to the actual Deathwing version though thats for sure. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:
Balls of steel are the best ones.

I like the 'no balls, no babies' approach to DS. If anything, contrary to the original complaint, I tend to see people avoid the optimum landing position out of fear of Mishaps.

It's important to know how much damage you can do on the drop, so you aren't caught with your balls out on your enemies' next turn, but I'm not going to avoid the best DS position just because there's a little risk involved.

Precisely. You paid for it. put your name on it.