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Looking at a competitive Hunter Contingent that can deal with Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and Invisistars. Basically lots of ifnores covers low AP blasts that never miss. Here goes:

HUNTER CONTINGENT

HUNTER CADRE
Commander: 2 MP, TL, DC, 2 Marker Drones 152
5 Strikes: DS8 MP 55
5 Strikes: DS8 MP 55
5 Breachers: 45
2 Crisis: Shas'vre w MSSS, C&CN, PEN Chip other with MP 124
4 Marker Drones: 56
Riptide: Ion, EWO, TL, Drone 220
Stormsurge: Driver, ABFP, EWO 385

FBSC
Riptide: Ion, EWO, TL, Drone 220
Broadside: EWO, Missile Drones 82
Broadside: EWO, Missile Drones 82

AD~ UMs
Librarian: 65
Tac Squad: Combigrav, grav Drop Pod 130
Drop Pod: 35

ASSASSINORUM
Culexus: 140

That's what I think I'm going to go with. When you join units firing you have to target the same unit hence everything has a designated shooter then a TL to fire at something else using buff suit stuff. The way it is worded a solo buff suit wouldn't be able to join in as it can't fire. I've gone grav on the tac marines purely to help against multiple Wraithknights (generally I hate grav on nonrelentless platforms). I've got 2 pods so I can choose Culexus not to come in turn 1 if I don't need him. Obviously he's there to turn off invis before all the S10/8 Ap2 ignores cover blasts ruin it.

Destroyer missiles and tank/monster hunter for Knights of both varieties. What do you think?

Is it worth spending 230 additional points on top of the 140 to take an assassin?

How does that stack up to a second stormsurge?

It looks good though.

Against an invisistar? The Culexus makes FAR more difference than the extra Stormsurge would. It also gives me some ObSec for funsies.

It breaks the fluffy side of me to see the marines in here, but darn if it doesn't look like it'd work well.

Hey UMs and Tau do fight alongside each other in the fluff. The Culexus in the Drop Pod? Well that is just because stupid battle brothers rules (both the fact he can get in the pod and the fact he has to so I can deal with silly Imperial deathstars).

The other option I'm toying with is this:


HUNTER CONTINGENT 

HUNTER CADRE 
Commander: 2 MP, TL, DC, Marker Drone 140
5 Strikes: 45
5 Strikes: 45
5 Strikes: 45 
2 Crisis: Shas'vre w MSSS, C&CN, PEN Chip other with MP 124 
4 Marker Drones: 56 
Stormsurge: Driver, ABFP, EWO 385 

OPTIMISED STEALTH CADRE
3 Ghostkeels: 3 Ion, 3 Fusions, 3 EWO, 2 Target locks, 1 VT 465
Stealth Team: Fusion, TL 100
Stealth Team: Fusion, TL 100

AD~ UMs 
Librarian: 65 
Tac Squad: Drop Pod 105
Drop Pod: 35 

ASSASSINORUM 
Culexus: 140 

I lose Ap2 large blasts which certainly weakens me against Invisistars, I'm about a wash against Wraithknights. However I hilariously bone Imperial Knights now and survive better against other Tau particularly the mirror match with double Stormsurge. What do you think?

Plus it allows me to use the Ghostkeel which is gorgeous (which is the main motivation behind this change.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Against an invisistar? The Culexus makes FAR more difference than the extra Stormsurge would. It also gives me some ObSec for funsies.

1 or 2 marker hits and the unit is completely removed without question in one turn with any hunter contingent list within reason. You just need a couple 6's and you have as many units as you want hitting on 4's. Making the culexas an irrelevance that you are being taxed an amount more than his pts cost for. While replacing him with marker support and a little bot more tweaking of your list will offer much more game long utility

I find that if I'm in the mood for Tau that a side of Tau compliments a main course of Tau the best. Unless youre going unbound and dropping in a WK

jakejackjake wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Against an invisistar? The Culexus makes FAR more difference than the extra Stormsurge would. It also gives me some ObSec for funsies.

1 or 2 marker hits and the unit is completely removed without question in one turn with any hunter contingent list within reason. You just need a couple 6's and you have as many units as you want hitting on 4's. Making the culexas an irrelevance that you are being taxed an amount more than his pts cost for. While replacing him with marker support and a little bot more tweaking of your list will offer much more game long utility

I find that if I'm in the mood for Tau that a side of Tau compliments a main course of Tau the best. Unless youre going unbound and dropping in a WK

Yeah you've still got a 2+ armour, 3++ invun, 5+++/4+++ FnP and 2+ rerollable cover to get through. Whilst all the best weapons still can't fire as they are blasts...

I like your second list if only for the fact that it doesn't rely on the firebase support cadre. I feel that the trade for the optimized stealth cadre is a good call, like you said more survivable against the mirror match. You are still short on objective holding units but I don't think it matters much, you have plenty of firepower. If you are sad for you lack of low ap you could give the ghostkeels fusion, although I like the ions volume of fire. Just a thought. And if it's not too much trouble post a batrep with your tau. I'd love to see what your army looks like on the table

 FlingitNow wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Against an invisistar? The Culexus makes FAR more difference than the extra Stormsurge would. It also gives me some ObSec for funsies.

1 or 2 marker hits and the unit is completely removed without question in one turn with any hunter contingent list within reason. You just need a couple 6's and you have as many units as you want hitting on 4's. Making the culexas an irrelevance that you are being taxed an amount more than his pts cost for. While replacing him with marker support and a little bot more tweaking of your list will offer much more game long utility

I find that if I'm in the mood for Tau that a side of Tau compliments a main course of Tau the best. Unless youre going unbound and dropping in a WK

Yeah you've still got a 2+ armour, 3++ invun, 5+++/4+++ FnP and 2+ rerollable cover to get through. Whilst all the best weapons still can't fire as they are blasts...

I'm pretty sure the IA isn't a blast, and you position it so that they can't take the wounds on they're tank. Regardless if they have an invisistar it's their entire army's ability to win in one unit so you take it out turn one and they lose no matter what. It can't get in range most likely without deepstriking or (drop podding same thing coming from reserve is what I mean) and then they die before they even get to go You don't want 370 of your points taking 5 turns to remove one unit while that unit is the enemy armies main damage output and is still active. I really think this is flawed reasoning. It's just not necessary you're almost paying for 6 broadsides. You are paying for two riptides.

The firebase cadre just doesn't offer anything not readily available anymore. Being able to take less broadsides is nice for building lists until you realize you never wanted less and this formation actually got a huge nerf because it basically relied on 0 outside support to be amazing, and WK's are not going to be an issue for the new Tau.

Right so the average Wolfstar has 2 WGBL and Sammael as tanks. Firing Ions without blasts at bs3 twinlinked (assuming the unlikely 2 ML hits) nets 0.83 unsaved wounds BETWEEN them!!! Oh dear. So if I go 2nd against such a list (accounted for a quarter to a third of the field at last Tourney) they scout then move another 12" so I start with them on my deployment zone edge and I pray for those lucky 2 6s, if I get them I might kill one of the characters then I lose. Or you know I could just take the Culexus and not be really worried about the matchup...

As for the FBSC in this list it is mainly there for the Riptide and cheap tax for Contingent.

If you can kill the super unit so easy with a culexis assassin why even play Tau?

I wipe the floor with these super units. I use ATS sometimes though and no one does. You just take out all non tanks and watch the unit be worthless.

So invuls don't work against the culexis? How many wounds does he get per turn? How many turns does he get to shoot at the unit and how effective is he against cover saves? Which is what they'll be tanking with if they're smart not the WGBL

He still can't kill the unit and is only really helping if he is put directly next to the enemy psykers. I must be missing something. In order for their psykers to be negated he has to be within 12" and that's just not gonna happen

Who said the Culexus kills the unit? He strips invisibility so the Tau kill the unit. The reason to play Tau is because I like Tau, not sure why you think the Culexus changes that? This is pretty basic stuff. Why does killing their non vehicle stuff stop the unit from being good? Not sure you've ever played against such lists because the WGBLs most certainly does lead with a wolf and RW biker equidistant from him for LoS.

You say you kill such units easily. May I ask how?

I like your second list a lot and had drawn up something fairly similar to it, myself. As compared to your first list, I think the OSC strategy is much better for a TAC list. Multiple high S, low AP blasts will do a number on cents and wolves, but they're not super great against demons and multiple flyrants. Throwing multiple Ghostkeels in the mix allows you to heartily (ab)use the new Tau formation and army-wide bonuses to maximum effect. Swapping in the OSC adds a lot of mobility and, as you noted, a lot of anti-vehicle punch. The only matchups I see being intensely problematic are lists with multiple Wraithknights and something horde-ish like Green Tide.

I really wish you could get away without the Culexus, but there just isn't anything I can think of that ~350 pts would be better spent on. He essentially nullifies the main things the list would worry about - namely psychic buffs to tough, fast units. Extra Tau units to share in buff spreading would be great, but they aren't going to be terribly useful if they get removed from the table by a truckload of grav fire before doing anything.

The thing that concerns me most is how fragile your buff suit situation is. Operating with the assumption that a buff suit not attached to a unit can't target a unit (because it can't shoot) and thus can't spread those tasty benefits to other units, that lone missile pod suit is going to eat a ton of fire right off the bat. If it dies - and it will, barring some remarkable JSJ action - you're going to be buffless. Ideally, you'd be able to fit both a buffmander and a Mark'o in the army, but I can't really see what you'd remove for that. Maybe the tac squad's drop pod and roll with a flamer suit or something for the formation reqs? The thought of dropping the Mark'o in favor of Pathfinders is less than thrilling. They're my least favorite marker light source.

Yeah there's no free points in the OSC list at all. I could fit an extra body into the unit with the first list and/or iridium. However once the Stormsurge has fired his D Missiles the Mark'o could jump unit and tank for Batman as the buffs are more important than the MLs at that point.

Is the Culexes even necessary? When you can have your entire Tau army fire at the deathstar, monster unit and waste it in a single round of shooting. Then with the Optimised stealth Cadre, they can kit the rear armor of those pesky Knights...getting around it's shielding.

Yes because if the Deathstar is invisible my best weapons don't hurt the deathstar. Against such lists you can often only have 1 turn to stop it before it is in your line ripping the heart out of your army.

I think the second list is better, with the two drop pods you can reserve the culexus if dead-stars are reserved.

I don't think the ghostkeels are all that amazing tbh, I would drop them, get marker drones aux, change cadres drone squadron to piranha (Excellent roadblock for knights), get buff commander from cadre and marker commander from command.

This leave you points to buff the crisis team which the buffmander can tank for.

I agree with you on the need for Culexus in competitive play, but I would try to get something out of the tac squad (even going Salamanders and getting a flamer/combi flamer make them a lot more usefull).

You know that each Ghostkeel averages 4.8 hull points on a Knight if they don't put their shield on the rear right? The OSC should kill 2 Knights a turn unless they put their shield on the rear and take D Missiles to the face... Plus you get the 3 invisibilities, AA and if needs be 12 S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge. Not sure why you think they aren't good?

Given that the difference between the first list and the 2nd is the addition of the Ghostkeels at the expense of weapons on the Tac squad. I don't quite get why you say you like the 2nd list but not the Ghostkeels or lack weapons on the tac squad?

I don't want to strip all my firepower to buff a buffmander I should be able to protect for the alphastrike anyway. What would you envision the list would then look like?

Culexus in a drop pod isnt a flexible as a Culexus in a rhino. Null deploying the death star could weaken the range of the Culexus.

With enough marklights Tau dont have a huge problem with invis. The biggest issue with Tau is CC defensive. They need something that'll pack a punch like an Iron hands chapter master/ D- Bloodthirster or even a plague star.

Culexus can hide in reserve too remember I have 2 pods. But to be honest if they have a big Deathstar and reserve it then I've a really solid shot at tabling them and I get a round of shooting without invis up which could be enough. Markerlights do nothing to help blasts target the star. Culexus in a Rhino is too easy to target by support elements.

Support elements??? Are we talking about a thunderdome death star or just a run of the mill invis. unit. In either case your opponent isnt going to care about a rhino, especially if youre assassin isnt actually inside. Remember you can infiltrate him upfield and then throw him inside the rhino. The problem with pushing the Culexus upfield via a drop pod is that your opponent can simply get out of the way and ignore him. If on the other hand you place him closer to your own board edge you create an area of denial, giving you greater board control.

The only blasts that'll have an effect against a thunderdome star are apocalyptic ones. Remember 2 inch spacing and big bases.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You know that each Ghostkeel averages 4.8 hull points on a Knight if they don't put their shield on the rear right? The OSC should kill 2 Knights a turn unless they put their shield on the rear and take D Missiles to the face... Plus you get the 3 invisibilities, AA and if needs be 12 S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge. Not sure why you think they aren't good?

Given that the difference between the first list and the 2nd is the addition of the Ghostkeels at the expense of weapons on the Tac squad. I don't quite get why you say you like the 2nd list but not the Ghostkeels or lack weapons on the tac squad?

I don't want to strip all my firepower to buff a buffmander I should be able to protect for the alphastrike anyway. What would you envision the list would then look like?

Sorry I misread the first list not having a pod, I the Keels are 450+ points together with 6 marignally effective stealth teams @ 100 points (I don't think they are horrible, but you can get better).

That 650 points could get you a lot more efficient units, not least of which Surge no.2 + reliable markerlights source. I understand they kill knights fast but they become pretty inefficient against other targets (wraith knights, scatter bikes, marines tacticals (I know they can kill, but others can kill faster/contribute to interceptor). What do you need AA for?

Your second list, with the keels, the Raven suit is very easy to kill I fear, and commander + drones is reliable but your only source of marker lights. Maybe I'm just nervous for no reason but I really imagine someone acing most of my markerlights turn 1/2 and me not getting STR D Missles.

Sorry I'm flip-flopping a bit, but I do really like the interceptors you have in the first list. I'm at work now, but I'll post my list when I get home in about 3/4 hours, I'd love it if you could take a look.

Edit: spelling and grammar is hard.

 iddy00711 wrote:
Support elements??? Are we talking about a thunderdome death star or just a run of the mill invis. unit. In either case your opponent isnt going to care about a rhino, especially if youre assassin isnt actually inside. Remember you can infiltrate him upfield and then throw him inside the rhino. The problem with pushing the Culexus upfield via a drop pod is that your opponent can simply get out of the way and ignore him. If on the other hand you place him closer to your own board edge you create an area of denial, giving you greater board control.

The only blasts that'll have an effect against a thunderdome star are apocalyptic ones. Remember 2 inch spacing and big bases.

If the Culexus is infiltrated he'll get shot. Thunderdome will either have bikes or Landspeeders as support both of which can kill a Rhino or Culexus left on his own. The S10 blast is actually quite effective against Thunderdome. Yes 2" spacing is a thing and if it has foot characters so is daisy chaining. However terrain is also a thing, so are 1" consolidation moves. There are ways it can and does get bunched up.

Yes the pod is 1 use it is also an annoying AV12 scoring unit too particularly in matchups where the Culexus is unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fruzzle- Ghostkeels and the OSC are amongst the best things in the codex. The Stealth teams are really quite good when innately Bs4 ignoring cover and hitting rear armour. They worry wave serpents and Rhinos without needing coordinated fire (and Leman Russes if anyone makes the mistake of bringing Guard). They also hurt Jetbikes as the fusion should kill 1 if it hits and at Bs4 the burstcannons pile on wounds whilst you have 2+ cover vs them. Also being infiltrators they can block other infiltrators and Scout to hem in that Thunderdome.

Also the Ghostkeels are not that bad vs Wraithknights. Not as good as a Stormsurge granted but they'll last longer than a Stormsurge to return fire. They do just over 3 wounds a turn to the Wraithknights on their own with buff suit support.

The markerlights should be protected from everything except barrage anyway due to mobility and JSJ. Plus I won't much need them after turn 1 maybe 2 anyway due to coordinated fire with the Buffmander.

I personaly will go for the OPTIMISED STEALTH CADRE, but with 1 Ghostkeel only, otherwise it is way too vulnerable.

Furthermore i will field 2 Sniper Drone units, 2 units of drones (6 gun, 2 marker) as part of my HUNTER CADRE so i can get the maximal use of the perk of this formation.

Furthermore i will try the Kroot/Vespid formation.
Not because it is that good, but just because it gives me 6 units that can infiltrate or to use as speed bumbs for very few points.
And with BS:4 the Kroot sniper rifles are a danger to wraiths, monsters and anything with toughness really, including gargantuams. And I have enough markerlights to get rid of any cover saves, jink saves etc.

How do Ghostkeels benefit from a buff Commanders suits? He cant join their unit?

Coordinated Firepower

I think there will be significant resistance to the but commander giving twin link, ignores cover, monster/tank hunter to the whole hunter cadre. I know coordinated firepower is a thing and it is very very powerful. But see the below article on the subject.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/the-curious-case-of-buffmander-and-his-merry-band.html

If, as stated in the article, you want to use all of the benifits of being in 1 unit then even as a tau player you still have to abide by all the restrictions, or at least all the ones that do not pertain to the shooting phase and for example if you take target locks when you use them to shoot at a different unit or your stormsurge shoots at something different(because he's a gargantuan no problem there) those shots do not enjoy the buffs. At least that is my conservative opinion until a better argument is made to the contrary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to your list, I love the optimized stealth cadre. I'm slightly concerned about the fact you only have the one source of markers as it will most certainly be concentrated on by your opponent. That being said without dropping the assassin I don't know what else to cut to get the points for another viable source. If only tetras were included in the hunter cadre. That's my only criticism, the markers are too vunerable and too concentrated. Unlike most lists though yours is already very lean so I would say it's time to playtest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, coordinated firepower states "models from this detachment", as the optimized stealth cadre and hunter cadre are two seperate detachments the buffmander buffs could never transfer unless you are somehow able to attach the commander to the ghostkeels unit, which as they are monsterous creatures, isn't possible unless there are special rules permitting such a merger. So yea, I would check with your local TO and opponents before playing it this way.

An article written on BoLS that is hugely bias and written by someone with no understanding of the rules is not a good basis. The Buffmander does work as do target locks this is indisputable RaW and the most likely RaI. There is a Dakka thread that covers the details. As for that article the fact he mentions coherency and MC illustrates he either is clueless on rules or is intentionally lying to the reader.

CoordinatedFirepower is for the Hunter Contingent not Cadre. The OSC is part of the Contingent detachment and it is units not models. This is not something I need to check with my opponents anymore than checking whether a Wraithknight is 295 or 395 points base. The rules are abundantly clear.

Well having read and re read the dakka rules section debate, the official rule which does indeed say detachment, which would include the core and auxiliary. I have to agree with you flingitnow. I stand corrected. RAW does indeed tell you to play it this way, and nothing in the target lock entry or gargantuan creature rules prevents you from using those rules as long as "the unit" fires at the unit targeted by the coordinated firepower.

Question, do the benifits stack from different cadres then? For example if I shoot 3 units at the same thing and they are in the optimized stealth cadre then they would have bs5 correct? As 1+ for having 3 units shoot at the same thing and 1+ for optimized stealth cadre? I don't see anything preventing it but I have been wrong before...