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Hi There, New Guy here (got into this about a month ago to do a hobby of painting and modding rather then warfare but ...)

So I've been reading a fair amount about the space marines the history the organisation etc, and I can see the influences of 1980's and 1990's pseudo military organisation applied to these chapters, and I understand the breakdown from legions into chapters, and then theres a whole bunch of fluff about how and why a bunch of space marines happen to be on a random planet shooting all the dakka at chaos scum they need to be eliminating (check out my use of lingo on first post!)

But several things confuse me - and I want to clarify this before I get too far into painting, and its possible the answer is 'Thats just how it is stop questioning it its just a game jeeeessshhh' so, feel free to answer with that

Lots of things say that different companies probably would be deployed separately, and yet in almost every battle i see squads from different chapters deployed - especially with dark angels where you might be deploying some death wing and raven wing to work together. Why is the structure then this way of companies being quite specialised, rather then a company contains some elite units, some tactical and heavy grunts, and a squad of scouts, and that this company would have their own transport (maybe battle barge, maybe a bit smaller), to be deposited on random worlds to forge the emperors will and clear of chaos scum.

Why is the fluff that a new recruit into a chapter would go into scouts first, then be promoted if they live into the marines later? Are the scouts not considered to be the epitome of a specialist unit? Why would a marine proficient in being cloaky and snipery then give that all up to grab a heavy bolter and big power armour?

Not being of a military background myself, what would the equivalent be in todays armies (if any) - do you expect your squad to be deployed with the same set of other squads for prolonged periods of time, or does it mix up a bit?

They become snipers first because they'd;
A) Be brutally dakka'd
B) Learn from afar
C) Do stuff behind frontlines to get a sense for the enemy.

The whole point of the scout company is to learn, and even then, those in the Scout company have not reached full maturity.

A company based on some elites, troops and specialists would be very bad because it means that an Imperial Commander cannot draw on however many veterans he needs to bolster his troops, and he can take some Scouts for support. Deployment options are then severely limited.

Also, these exist:


They are Legiones but I have no doubt if given the chance, chapters like Raven Guard would snatch these up.

Most chapters follow the structure of the Codex Astartes:

The 1st company of every chapter is made up exclusively of veterans. These companies are rarely fielded as a single battle company, and usually deploy combat squads (5 men) or full squads (10 men) with one of the chapter's 4 battle companies as elite units.

Companies 2-5 are the chapter's battle companies. These are the companies that see the bulk of deployments, as they are well-rounded forces containing squads of every category of space marine with the exception of scouts.

Companies 6-9 are reserve companies, and each one is made up entirely of a single category of space marine, tactical, assault, or devastator. These companies are also rarely fielded as a single company and are most often deployed separately as additional support for one of the battle companies.

The 10th company is the scout company. Scouts, with the exception of their sergeants, are marines who have not earned their power armour yet. The scout company of a Codex chapter never deploys as a single company, and are again broken up into supporting elements for the battle companies.

The Dark Angels are unique in that the Deathwing and Ravenwing are specialized companies that do not follow the structure of the Codex Astartes.


EDIT: None of this is really ironclad. Even chapters that follow the Codex are pretty much free to structure/deploy their companies however they wish. This is just the baseline laid down by the Codex.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
They become snipers first because they'd;
A) Be brutally dakka'd
B) Learn from afar
C) Do stuff behind frontlines to get a sense for the enemy.

The whole point of the scout company is to learn, and even then, those in the Scout company have not reached full maturity.

A company based on some elites, troops and specialists would be very bad because it means that an Imperial Commander cannot draw on however many veterans he needs to bolster his troops, and he can take some Scouts for support. Deployment options are then severely limited.

Cheers - awesome pic.

I think the question becomes the realism of how these guys are deployed. So In WH battle terms, you're putting your scouts at the back because they can shoot a far way and can't take a hit, whereas not being a wargamer, outside of the board, I'm seeing their role as being on the ground looking for baddies before the drop pods even land.

I think the question also becomes though whats in the space - its alright saying ok I've got this 1000 marine + library + hq + techmarine chapter (plus kitchen staff and servitors etc) that I've got floating around somewhere, and then having those guys deployed on missions. At some point you're going to put 200 guys onto a ship and send them off, and 200 guys onto another ship and send them off. it might be months/years before either of those ships return, and in the mean time you're going to want them to act as an independent company for all intents and purposes - unless you're maintaining choerance and moving your entire chapter around the universe at all times.

Perhaps the structure is less rigid - and yes, I accept @Orb's comment of 'this is what the Codex Astartes says', and thats really what I'm questioning - perhaps the system is you are creating battle companies of 3-500 men on a battle barge that you've sent into the warp, and that might be consisting of 2/3 squads of elites 2, companies of normals plus a bunch of scouts and reserves and tech marines and librarians etc, and on whatever planet your landing on you might be then splitting them down into four or five hot zones on the planet in at one time (hence you only having 1500 points on the table, not your entire two companies), and that still gives whatever commander in charge of that battle-company the ability to flex within that limited scope what is about to land for whatever engagements need to be handled, with the local knowledge and intelligence that just wasn't available before the battle barge left the home-world.

Why neophytes are used as scouts more than full-fledged marines is a matter of several reasons. Power armour is, as it's name implies, powered. It makes more noise than carapace armour. Neophytes are individuals who likely already surpass the abilities and training of normal humans, but either haven't proven themselves enough yet or their black carapace hasn't mature enough yet to have earned power armour.

So power armour is less conducive to scouting than carapace armour, and you have marines who haven't yet earned power armour but are more or less ready to take the field. It seems only logical that you would make these marines your scouts.

So snipping a bit out, I fully agree with the two points you raise, but its the jump to the conclusion that I struggle with:

 Orblivion wrote:
Power armour is, as it's name implies, powered. It makes more noise than carapace armour.

Yup, fully agree. It would be daft to put scouts in high power armour. Im not saying there shouldn't be scout detachments, thats great.

 Orblivion wrote:
Neophytes are individuals who likely already surpass the abilities and training of normal humans, but either haven't proven themselves enough yet or their black carapace hasn't mature enough yet to have earned power armour.

Ok, so this suggests that you have to 'earn' your rank as space marine in combat, and I think thats where I'm beginning to have a slight problem. This kind of goes along the lines of that training isn't good enough, you have to actually go and fight before you are allowed to be called a marine, which is kind of the opposite of a 'professional army' that I'm used to seeing and reading about outside of WH40k, where your training provides everything you will need to handle real-world-situations (in theory).

Is the Swiss army a formidable foe even though they've not conducted a war (admittedly they have been involved in NATO peacekeeping actives) - they're a professional force, albeit in smaller numbers then a US or Russian style invasion.

So power armour is less conducive to scouting than carapace armour, and you have marines who haven't yet earned power armour but are more or less ready to take the field. It seems only logical that you would make these marines your scouts.

I think what I'm suggesting is that you recruit a bunch of people, you stick em through boot camp, you stick them through advanced training, you wash out half of them. Then you pick out the specialists.. perhaps 3/4 end up in power armour, standard, basic grade power armour. These others then go onto specialist training - sniping, cammo, surveilance, survival skills, urban and desert fighting etc. These guys become your scouts - who are specialists, experts, at using terrain, and lower grade armour for stealth and etc.

Then your marines in power armour who prove themselves get upgrades - better gear, grenades, heavy bolters, jet packs, better land raider units etc, comfy chairs in drop pods.
Your snipers who excel move up and become assassins - equivalent of marine snipers who upgrade to CIA blackops e

After all, you wouldn't ask a marine not to get in a jeep because he's only arrived in theatre that day... or would you?

 Orblivion wrote:
Why neophytes are used as scouts more than full-fledged marines is a matter of several reasons. Power armour is, as it's name implies, powered. It makes more noise than carapace armour. Neophytes are individuals who likely already surpass the abilities and training of normal humans, but either haven't proven themselves enough yet or their black carapace hasn't mature enough yet to have earned power armour.

So power armour is less conducive to scouting than carapace armour, and you have marines who haven't yet earned power armour but are more or less ready to take the field. It seems only logical that you would make these marines your scouts.

The noise of power armor can be completely silenced.

So what I meant by earning power armour is twofold. First is the black carapace. This is the organ that allows their nervous system to interface directly with the armour. Until this implant matures, they cannot wear Astartes power armour. Second is exactly what you thought, they have to earn the right to wear that power armour. Power armour is rare, and every single suit of it is treated as a chapter relic. You do not get to claim a suit as your own until you have proven your worth.

Some neophytes will prove themselves before their black carapace has matured, and will have to wait. Others will have their black carapace mature before they have fully proven themselves, and just aren't ready to be battle brothers yet. They remain a scout until both criteria have been met.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The noise of power armor can be completely silenced.

This, like so many other things in 40k, is not set in stone. There are sources that mention specifically how even in top condition power armour simply makes noise, as I'm sure there are sources that claim otherwise.

 Orblivion wrote:
So what I meant by earning power armour is twofold. First is the black carapace. This is the organ that allows their nervous system to interface directly with the armour. Until this implant matures, they cannot wear Astartes power armour. Second is exactly what you thought, they have to earn the right to wear that power armour. Power armour is rare, and every single suit of it is treated as a chapter relic. You do not get to claim a suit as your own until you have proven your worth.

Some neophytes will prove themselves before their black carapace has matured, and will have to wait. Others will have their black carapace mature before they have fully proven themselves, and just aren't ready to be battle brothers yet. They remain a scout until both criteria have been met.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The noise of power armor can be completely silenced.

This, like so many other things in 40k, is not set in stone. There are sources that mention specifically how even in top condition power armour simply makes noise, as I'm sure there are sources that claim otherwise.

Mark VI armor was specifically made to be completely silent, and the Raven Guard are famous for shadow-walking, the process that allows an eight foot tall one tonne giant to move through a fully packed Subway without ever being heard or seen.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
So what I meant by earning power armour is twofold. First is the black carapace. This is the organ that allows their nervous system to interface directly with the armour. Until this implant matures, they cannot wear Astartes power armour. Second is exactly what you thought, they have to earn the right to wear that power armour. Power armour is rare, and every single suit of it is treated as a chapter relic. You do not get to claim a suit as your own until you have proven your worth.

Some neophytes will prove themselves before their black carapace has matured, and will have to wait. Others will have their black carapace mature before they have fully proven themselves, and just aren't ready to be battle brothers yet. They remain a scout until both criteria have been met.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The noise of power armor can be completely silenced.

This, like so many other things in 40k, is not set in stone. There are sources that mention specifically how even in top condition power armour simply makes noise, as I'm sure there are sources that claim otherwise.

Mark VI armor was specifically made to be completely silent, and the Raven Guard are famous for shadow-walking, the process that allows an eight foot tall one tonne giant to move through a fully packed Subway without ever being heard or seen.

Raven Guard can sneak up on anyone, even the Eldar. Regardless, it isn't consistent. Maybe they do have the ability to make every suit of power armour completely silent, but they haven't actually done it so the point is moot. With the exception of the Raven Guard, Space Wolves and maybe the Ultramarines, nobody really uses power armoured marines for scouting.

So kind of ignoring the entire is power armour quiet or not (which lets face it, it probably isn't, but with a combination of psychic and tech powers you could make a suit silenced, but most people arn't going to bother.

Orblivion wrote:So what I meant by earning power armour is twofold. First is the black carapace. This is the organ that allows their nervous system to interface directly with the armour. Until this implant matures, they cannot wear Astartes power armour. Second is exactly what you thought, they have to earn the right to wear that power armour. Power armour is rare, and every single suit of it is treated as a chapter relic. You do not get to claim a suit as your own until you have proven your worth.

Some neophytes will prove themselves before their black carapace has matured, and will have to wait. Others will have their black carapace mature before they have fully proven themselves, and just aren't ready to be battle brothers yet. They remain a scout until both criteria have been met.

Some neophytes will prove themselves before their black carapace has matured, and will have to wait. Others will have their black carapace mature before they have fully proven themselves, and just aren't ready to be battle brothers yet. They remain a scout until both criteria have been met.

Guard can sneak up on anyone, even the Eldar. Regardless, it isn't consistent. Maybe they do have the ability to make every suit of power armour completely silent, but they haven't actually done it so the point is moot. With the exception of the Raven Guard, Space Wolves and maybe the Ultramarines, nobody really uses power armoured marines for scouting.

Now this is beginning to make more sense. So you have to wait because you can't actually use the stuff, and the armours a relic, not just amour. Ok, I'll buy that.

However I think theres this problem with the term 'scout'. To me, that meaning is a specialist role, as opposed to 'reservist', and yes, I do understand how the codex lays down the progression of marines. So you've shown clearly that there needs to be a phase in a space marines life where he is not yet in power armour, but because of training is still a useful force on the battle field. What I still find hard to believe is that they would be scouts, as opposed to neophyte space marines in carapace armour, which you might call 'reservists' or 'support' teams, (not necessarily specialist heavy support or air support or any of those terms), that are deployed to augment numbers on the battlefield.

I think possibly the problem I have is over the meaning of the word 'scout'. To me thats a very specialised, professional role - an end career role, i.e. once you're one, you're one for life.

I realise this would make my chapter non-orthodox, but potentially means that I would be looking to field* reservists (the scout model set) alongside the space marines to represent these neophytes, whilst the scout units would (at least in my head), be these specialists who are not going to suddenly one day don power armour and crush skulls with their bolter.

* (remember, I don't actually 'play' WH...)

Some chapters have their new recruits as neophyte types with the newbies mixed into squads of more experienced marines, such as Black Template. Similarly the Space Wolf scouts are actually their veterans with the newbies getting stuck in power armour and given hitty sticks.

Marines are supposedly recruited as prepubescent to allow the surgery, psycho indoctrination and genetic enhancement ts to bed in properly. I don't suppose they get dropped into combat immediately and marines live for hundreds of years, so there is probably scope for them to receive more years of training than modern soldiers have in their whole career.

Dansan wrote:

However I think theres this problem with the term 'scout'. To me, that meaning is a specialist role, as opposed to 'reservist', and yes, I do understand how the codex lays down the progression of marines. So you've shown clearly that there needs to be a phase in a space marines life where he is not yet in power armour, but because of training is still a useful force on the battle field. What I still find hard to believe is that they would be scouts, as opposed to neophyte space marines in carapace armour, which you might call 'reservists' or 'support' teams, (not necessarily specialist heavy support or air support or any of those terms), that are deployed to augment numbers on the battlefield.

Modern military structure has little do do with it. Modern terminology has little to do with it. A space marine 'librarian' doesn't loan out books. A space 'marine' is nothing like a 'marine' in our conventional understanding either. You're better off thinking in terms of quasi-medieval structures. Space marines are Knights who engage in brutal and overwhelming shock assaults.

Space marine scouts are beta-marines on their 'apprenticeship' tour. Their power armoured brethren do 99% of the fighting. Whether that is armoured assaults, brutal hand to hand, long range anti tanks and infantry support and so on and so on. Scouts are simply incapable of that level of operation. They're not 'line troops' in the sense that space marines are. So their job is as a support element. Bear in mind that scouts, even though nowhere near the level of space marines in terms of ability, are still equal to any modern special forces troops. They're often not even expected to engage in combat. Range ahead and do some spotting and intelligence gathering. Occasional sabotage. Often for date or weeks at a time (see imperial armour vol.8 for examples). If they have to fight, it's skirmish and ambush, and not shock assaults where 'real' marines specialise. All of this is them 'earning their wings' so to speak. Thst said, some marines do become 'professional' scouts, and stay in the tenth company long term, often acting as sergeants and leaders. Sergeant tellion is one such example

Dansan wrote:

I think possibly the problem I have is over the meaning of the word 'scout'. To me thats a very specialised, professional role - an end career role, i.e. once you're one, you're one for life.

But they do scout. It is a very specialised, professional role. It's a role that 'full' marines could probably do, but frankly, those marines have more important jobs to be doing.

Dansan wrote:

I realise this would make my chapter non-orthodox, but potentially means that I would be looking to field* reservists (the scout model set) alongside the space marines to represent these neophytes, whilst the scout units would (at least in my head), be these specialists who are not going to suddenly one day don power armour and crush skulls with their bolter.

Look into space wolves. Space wolves used the codex astartes for kindling and field their neophytes in power armour and their scouts are an elite division. But the space wolves do everything arseways.

If you want to be non-orthodox and put your neophytes in power armour and your scouts as an elite wing, then go for it. Obviously the ultramarines will be annoyed with you for crapping all over their lovely codex, but the average imperial citizen or guardsman won't really care too much what they do with the codex when they're pulling their arses out of the fire. Just don't call them reservists. Space marines don't really do thst...