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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 17:12:19
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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Can you upgrade the Captain in a demi company to be a Chapter Master?
Argument For:
1. Unit Composition reads Captain regardless of upgrade
2. If the Chapter Master doesn't count against the Captain requirement for the demi company, why did GW change it to a single entry, as opposed to keeping the ranks a separate entry?
Argument Against: addendum allows Captain rank special characters to replace a regular Captain, but not the Chapter Master special characters
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 17:15:19
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge
What's left of Cadia
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I've always ran a CM in my demi company lists, nobody's ever had a problem with it
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TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 17:43:26
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If it says a Captain, to me that means it has to be a Captain. While there are definitely real arguments to be made as a case for allowing Chapter Masters (since Chapter Masters don't have a unit entry, being an upgrade, so it's a Captain unit composed of a single Chapter Master...), I think the Occam's Razor concept applies.
If I asked "Is a Chapter Master a Captain?", the answer would be "no". I do not believe the common response would be "Yes, it's a Captain with the Chapter Master upgrade". Thus, if I include a Chapter Master instead of a Captain, then I would be incorrect in doing so. Personally, the fact that it only allows you to swap in Captain and not Chapter Master special characters is a big clue to this being the case.
RAW? It's legal.
RAI? Not legal. And this is the answer I would side with in an argument.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 17:48:38
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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"(...) A Formation Datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation (...)"
- Codex: Space Marines
"Each Army List Entry contains the following information:
(...)
4. Unit name
(...)"
- Codex: Space Marines
Formation datasheet specifies Army List Entry for Captain.
Captain is the Army List Entry units name.
Chapter Master is just an upgrade and there is no rule that forbids it, just like no rule forbids to upgrade Veteran to Apothecary in Command Squad.
Also the exactly same ruling is for Strike Force Command Formation - "1 Captain". According to some, you wouldn't be allowed to upgrade Captain to Chapter Master in Codex: Space Marines Formations ever....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 18:03:11
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Add to the above that you can add cenobyte servitors to chaplain Grimaldus, and regular servitors to techmarines in the formations.
Those 2 entries do not state "unit of" either(because formations already tell you which units you can bring, not which models)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 18:10:04
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Yarium wrote:If it says a Captain, to me that means it has to be a Captain. While there are definitely real arguments to be made as a case for allowing Chapter Masters (since Chapter Masters don't have a unit entry, being an upgrade, so it's a Captain unit composed of a single Chapter Master...), I think the Occam's Razor concept applies.
If I asked "Is a Chapter Master a Captain?", the answer would be "no". I do not believe the common response would be "Yes, it's a Captain with the Chapter Master upgrade". Thus, if I include a Chapter Master instead of a Captain, then I would be incorrect in doing so. Personally, the fact that it only allows you to swap in Captain and not Chapter Master special characters is a big clue to this being the case.
RAW? It's legal.
RAI? Not legal. And this is the answer I would side with in an argument.
There is a unit named Captain which may contain either a Captain model or a Chapter Master model. Will both choices be a unit called Captain?
same as
There is a unit called Henchmen Squad which may contain Jokaero or Servitor models.
- Will the unit still be called Henchmen Squad?
- Would you limit the unit to just bring Jokaero when a Formation calls for Henchmen?
- If a Formation told you that you may substitute the unit with an Inquisitor, would that mean that you cannot take Jokaero since they're not human-based like the Inquisitor and the Servitors?
It's all coming down to the stupid "A Captain model in a Captain unit" thing. If you take that out of the picture, everyone would respond with "yeah sure, upgrade as you please".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 18:22:56
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lieutenant General
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The confusion lies in their use of "1 Captain or Chaplain" instead of "1 Captain unit or Chaplain unit". "Captain" by itself (as it is presented in the codex) could refer to either the unit or the specific model.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 19:13:33
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Ghaz wrote:The confusion lies in their use of "1 Captain or Chaplain" instead of "1 Captain unit or Chaplain unit". "Captain" by itself (as it is presented in the codex) could refer to either the unit or the specific model.
It can only refer to specific models if you ignore the fact that Formations/Detachments list Units via Army List Entry Unit Name and not Models. If you understand that Formations/Detachments list the Unit Names of Units that can be included, there is no confusion and it's readily apparent that the model in a Captain Unit can take the Chapter Master upgrade.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 19:21:55
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lieutenant General
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Kriswall wrote:It can only refer to specific models if you ignore the fact that Formations/Detachments list Units via Army List Entry Unit Name and not Models.
Which leads us back to the Necron Canoptek Harvest with its "1 Canoptek Spyder" mess.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 19:27:40
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Like I said, I don't disagree on any of the rules. It's quite apparent, like Kriswall said, that the rules allow it. But I firmly believe that it was intended to be a Captain leading one, and a Chaplain leading the other - hence why it only allows fluff-wise "Captain" special characters to be chosen.
My argument is like saying that someone who asks for Kleenex is really just asking for tissue paper. It's rare that someone will say "Pass me that Kleenex brand tissue paper", even though it's technically the correct thing to do.
I don't think I'd forbid playing against it, but to me it seems pretty RAI clear. RAW it's pretty clear the other way.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:06:20
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Ghaz wrote: Kriswall wrote:It can only refer to specific models if you ignore the fact that Formations/Detachments list Units via Army List Entry Unit Name and not Models.
Which leads us back to the Necron Canoptek Harvest with its "1 Canoptek Spyder" mess. Absolutely. That issue I attribute to inconsistent rules writing. The rules clearly state that an Army List Entry Unit Name should be listed on the Formation Datasheet. As there is no "Canoptek Sypder" Unit, a painfully strict reading of RaW would suggest the Formation is unusable until GW releases a "Canoptek Spyder" Datasheet. Until then, we're forced to use context clues and guess that the author meant a "Canoptek Spyders" Unit with no allowance to take additional Canoptek Spyder models. I think they've gotten better at this over time and we're now seeing Datasheets referencing the Unit Name with notes on Unit Composition. The Canoptek Harvest Formation should probably have called for "1 Canoptek Spyders Unit consisting of 1 Canoptek Spyder", but this sounds really wordy and cumbersome. Given that they are getting better at this, I'm assuming 1 Captain means 1 Captain Unit and that a Captain who has paid the points to become a Chapter Master would be fine. This works fine from a fluff standpoint as the Captain may have recently been killed in battle and the Chapter Master is standing in until such time as a new Captain can be appointed. Other context clues, such as the fact that named Captains are acceptable substitutes, but named Chapter Masters aren't, might lead us to believe that the Formation is, indeed, calling for a Captain model with no allowance for the Chapter Master upgrade. It's hard to tell. Ultimately, I don't think GW cares, so long as you're buying and playing with Marines! As always, discuss with your opponents or check with the organizer for organized events.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 20:07:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:11:29
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Tunneling Trygon
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I prefer no Chapter Masters. From a fluff standpoint, and the Demi-Company is very fluffy, the Chapter Master would work alongside a sub-commander of either the Chaplain or Captain rank. Chapter Masters belong in the Command section of the Gladius.
Realistically, I don't care enough to ever make a fuss about it. It is allowed RAW, and I'm not going to tell someone they can't when the rulebook pretty clearly says they can.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:16:08
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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The canoptek spyder mess would have had a simple fix for it to read as most read it: the formation restrictions.
There is a SM formation that requires a dreadnought unit and for all units to be mounted in drop pods; the restrictions specifically state that you can only have 1 dread per unit since that is the only way it could have and deploy in the pod.
The spyder/spyders thing gets even sillier when you see that the spyders options allow the taking of 2 more spyders(not 2 more spyder); so if the harvest means 1 model based on the lack of an "s", then the options must mean more units based on the inclusion of the "s".
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:21:52
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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SharkoutofWata wrote:I prefer no Chapter Masters. From a fluff standpoint, and the Demi-Company is very fluffy, the Chapter Master would work alongside a sub-commander of either the Chaplain or Captain rank. Chapter Masters belong in the Command section of the Gladius.
And Fluff-wise, it is not uncommon for the Chapter Master to be leading a Company if there is no Captain, but the Company needs to Engage. It's a good opportunity to find a potential Captain in the Company.
But not all engagements have to be fluffy in first place. How many Vulkan Khans are in the universe by now, for example?
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:29:28
Subject: Re:Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lieutenant General
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When it comes to inconsistent rules writing, the only thing that's consistent is the inconsistency  Its enough to throw doubt that they're being consistent with their wording elsewhere.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 20:36:02
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Kommissar Kel wrote:The canoptek spyder mess would have had a simple fix for it to read as most read it: the formation restrictions.
There is a SM formation that requires a dreadnought unit and for all units to be mounted in drop pods; the restrictions specifically state that you can only have 1 dread per unit since that is the only way it could have and deploy in the pod.
The spyder/spyders thing gets even sillier when you see that the spyders options allow the taking of 2 more spyders(not 2 more spyder); so if the harvest means 1 model based on the lack of an "s", then the options must mean more units based on the inclusion of the "s".
That's not the way an option to take extra models work, and you know it. You're arguing semantics, but in a overly melodramatic way. It undermines your entire position. I don't think anyone thinks you can add additional UNITS of Canoptek Spyders to an existing Unit.
I do, however, agree that using the Restrictions section would entirely avoid this mess. If the Demi-Company had "The Captain can't take the Chapter Master Upgrade", this issue wouldn't even be up for debate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 21:00:47
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Tunneling Trygon
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Charistoph wrote: SharkoutofWata wrote:I prefer no Chapter Masters. From a fluff standpoint, and the Demi-Company is very fluffy, the Chapter Master would work alongside a sub-commander of either the Chaplain or Captain rank. Chapter Masters belong in the Command section of the Gladius.
And Fluff-wise, it is not uncommon for the Chapter Master to be leading a Company if there is no Captain, but the Company needs to Engage. It's a good opportunity to find a potential Captain in the Company.
But not all engagements have to be fluffy in first place. How many Vulkan Khans are in the universe by now, for example?
Which is why I would never make a fuss. My Nidzilla list isn't fluffy, and it's the list I win the most with, but that doesn't change the fact that I prefer no Chapter Masters in the Formation because of fluff reasons. I'm still a fluffbunny at heart despite knowing how to make and in some cases bringing to the table a competitive build. Not everyone sticks with my head-canon (how dare they!) so I play against anything that's legal that my list is ready for. Whether I personally like it or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 21:37:54
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Generally when an unit is referenced in a formation it references the name of the datasheet purchased and no the model.
If it referenced the model profiles you would have things like tactical marines not being able to purchase vet sergeants because the vet sergeant is a separate profile name, and not the name of the datasheet. For that matter being told to take tactical squads would also limit you to not being able to take any models, as tactical squads contains the unit profiles for space marines, and space marine sergeants but not tactical squads- TLDR the name listed in the formation selections refers to datasheet names, not specific models.
as such if 'Chapter Master' is an upgrade on the 'Captain' datasheet then you are allowed to take the chapter master.
the caopotek spyder argument is interesting, but not really all that relevant. As it limits the quantity of what can be taken, but does so directly by saying 1 spyder. However it does not have anything to do with suggesting a limit on profiles of various models you can buy from a datasheet, which is separate than the qty of things you can buy being limited.
fluffwise- I am sure not every demi company is led by a chapter master, however it is very reasonable to say that some demi companies might be led by chapter masters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/02 21:59:37
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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blaktoof wrote:Generally when an unit is referenced in a formation it references the name of the datasheet purchased and no the model.
If it referenced the model profiles you would have things like tactical marines not being able to purchase vet sergeants because the vet sergeant is a separate profile name, and not the name of the datasheet. For that matter being told to take tactical squads would also limit you to not being able to take any models, as tactical squads contains the unit profiles for space marines, and space marine sergeants but not tactical squads- TLDR the name listed in the formation selections refers to datasheet names, not specific models.
as such if 'Chapter Master' is an upgrade on the 'Captain' datasheet then you are allowed to take the chapter master.
the caopotek spyder argument is interesting, but not really all that relevant. As it limits the quantity of what can be taken, but does so directly by saying 1 spyder. However it does not have anything to do with suggesting a limit on profiles of various models you can buy from a datasheet, which is separate than the qty of things you can buy being limited.
fluffwise- I am sure not every demi company is led by a chapter master, however it is very reasonable to say that some demi companies might be led by chapter masters.
Yup, from a fluff stand point, you could easily have a slightly non-Codex compliant Chapter where the Chapter Master leads half of the First Company while the First Captain leads the other half. Maybe the Chapter Master leads 50 Termies and the First Captain leads 50 Power Armoured Vets. There are thousands of Chapters. Not every one is as rigidly Codex compliant.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 19:38:58
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Kriswall wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote:The canoptek spyder mess would have had a simple fix for it to read as most read it: the formation restrictions.
There is a SM formation that requires a dreadnought unit and for all units to be mounted in drop pods; the restrictions specifically state that you can only have 1 dread per unit since that is the only way it could have and deploy in the pod.
The spyder/spyders thing gets even sillier when you see that the spyders options allow the taking of 2 more spyders(not 2 more spyder); so if the harvest means 1 model based on the lack of an "s", then the options must mean more units based on the inclusion of the "s".
That's not the way an option to take extra models work, and you know it. You're arguing semantics, but in a overly melodramatic way. It undermines your entire position. I don't think anyone thinks you can add additional UNITS of Canoptek Spyders to an existing Unit.
I do, however, agree that using the Restrictions section would entirely avoid this mess. If the Demi-Company had "The Captain can't take the Chapter Master Upgrade", this issue wouldn't even be up for debate.
That's not how the actual rules we are given on formations work either, but it is the exact same semantic argument given for the harvest formation.
Those that say the harvest is 1 spyder model claim this because the formation lists "1 canoptek spyder", and then since the unit is "canoptek spyders" with a unit composition of "1 canoptek spyder", it is limited to the base unit.
If the s is so important to the formation it must maintain that importance in the unit options as well; thus leading to the specifically crafted absurd argument that 1 unit allows the option to take 2 more units, that each allow 2 more units for a single HS choice that allows for a rapidly vectoring exponential number of additional units. And yes, options can and do allow for additional entries from a base entry, or do you not beleive in dedicated transports(simply listed under the options)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 20:12:38
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Kommissar Kel wrote: Kriswall wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote:The canoptek spyder mess would have had a simple fix for it to read as most read it: the formation restrictions.
There is a SM formation that requires a dreadnought unit and for all units to be mounted in drop pods; the restrictions specifically state that you can only have 1 dread per unit since that is the only way it could have and deploy in the pod.
The spyder/spyders thing gets even sillier when you see that the spyders options allow the taking of 2 more spyders(not 2 more spyder); so if the harvest means 1 model based on the lack of an "s", then the options must mean more units based on the inclusion of the "s".
That's not the way an option to take extra models work, and you know it. You're arguing semantics, but in a overly melodramatic way. It undermines your entire position. I don't think anyone thinks you can add additional UNITS of Canoptek Spyders to an existing Unit.
I do, however, agree that using the Restrictions section would entirely avoid this mess. If the Demi-Company had "The Captain can't take the Chapter Master Upgrade", this issue wouldn't even be up for debate.
That's not how the actual rules we are given on formations work either, but it is the exact same semantic argument given for the harvest formation.
Those that say the harvest is 1 spyder model claim this because the formation lists "1 canoptek spyder", and then since the unit is "canoptek spyders" with a unit composition of "1 canoptek spyder", it is limited to the base unit.
If the s is so important to the formation it must maintain that importance in the unit options as well; thus leading to the specifically crafted absurd argument that 1 unit allows the option to take 2 more units, that each allow 2 more units for a single HS choice that allows for a rapidly vectoring exponential number of additional units. And yes, options can and do allow for additional entries from a base entry, or do you not beleive in dedicated transports(simply listed under the options)
You're taking this argument to an extreme that becomes ridiculous. The rules don't allow for nested units, so I'm not even sure what you're proposing. Units contain models. When you're told that the unit has an option to take extra Spyders, the reasonable reading... using basic context clues... is that Spyders refers to models and not units. You can't ignore basic context and then scream semantics.
I think it's better to just call the Canoptek Harvest issue what it is... garbage writing. We are given a list of units, but then we aren't given a datasheet matching the one unit. A similar issue exists for the Conclave of the Burning One Formation. It calls for a "C'tan Shard", but there is no such unit in the game. A C'tan Shard of the Deceiver Unit isn't a C'tan Shard Unit anymore more than a Captain Lysander Unit is a Captain Unit. Space Marines 'dexes tend to have specific callouts allowing named Captains to take the place of the generic Captain requirement. The Conclave has no such allowance, so from a RaW standpoint, it's broken.
For the Captain issue, "1 Captain" COULD refer to either the unit or the model. If it refers to the model, we can't take the Chapter Master upgrade. If it refers to the unit, we can. By default, we know that a Formation lists the UNITs that need to be taken. Ergo, we can infer that "1 Captain" refers to a Captain unit. The model in a Captain unit should be able to be upgraded with no issue. A Chapter Master model, after all, is a member of a Captain Unit. There is no such thing as a Chapter Master unit as there is no Chapter Master datasheet. Why they didn't choose to make two different datasheets is beyond me. Maybe they were tight on pages.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 20:26:34
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Kommissar Kel wrote:That's not how the actual rules we are given on formations work either, but it is the exact same semantic argument given for the harvest formation.
Not entirely. There is more context in the Harvest Formation's Special Rules that the Demi-Company just does not have.
Kommissar Kel wrote:Those that say the harvest is 1 spyder model claim this because the formation lists "1 canoptek spyder", and then since the unit is "canoptek spyders" with a unit composition of "1 canoptek spyder", it is limited to the base unit.
It is not entirely limited to that. The Special Rule that provides the Reanimation Protocols to all the units is based on a distance around "the" Spyder, contextually speaking a single version. It is this additional context which adds at least some weight to the one Spyder model argument.
Either way, as someone stated, it is some piss poor editing, either way. My personal guess is that either the author of the Formation was told or had the misconception that Spyders only came in single model units and saw no discrepancy. No one else bothered to audit from a gameplay perspective and so we have wonderful things like the fiascoes that happened after they changed the Shooting Sequence and Praetorians with their Night Scythes.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 20:40:03
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Conclave of the burning one is not in the necron codex. It came out before the Necron codex, so calling out that it us garbage rules writing for having a unit that doesn't exist anymore is pretty pathetic: the unit called for existed for at least 2 months after the formation came out(yes 2 months is a pathetically short lifespan).
I already admitted that I have taken things to the extreme with the spyders allowing the purchase of more spyders units(although from the context of your last post I should clarify that I meant they are all still separate units of 1 Spyder, just like a ghost ark is an option for warriors but is a separate unit).
I have also already pointed out that the extreme semantics sillyness is because the context in both cases is that the s does not matter.
The whole point to this is that spyder and spyders are just a singular and a plural; formations do not have to state "unit of" the definition in the rule book already does that.
A Chapter Master is a model name in a captain unit. The formation allows(requires) a captain; that means captain unit. You take your captain unit and upgrade the captain model to a chapter master model and you still have your captain unit as required.
If you want to claim the captain cannot be upgraded without a listed restriction in the formation, then you are claiming that either:
A) no options can be taken for any units in the formation
Or
B) you are the grand master of all of the game and get to pick and choose whatever rules you want at your whim and we might as well just ignore anything you have to say(this comment is not directed at any particular individual, it is to illustrate the point that a restriction is being placed arbitrarily while ignoring the rules we are actually given)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 20:43:59
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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We actually agree. And please don't call me pathetic. The book is still for sale, so the fact that the Necron Codex changed is irrelevant. My comment stands, even if you can't recognize the validity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:03:02
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Apologies on the statement; I didn't even realize they were still selling the shield of baal books.
That is pretty bad on GW's case; selling a book with formations invalidated by a codex that came out 2 months after the release. Buy hey, that's the gw we love to hate.
And Christoph: the context can be taken both ways for the harvest; "the spyder" in the rp rules can be taken under context with the rules for formations as "the spyder unit", and we already have rules for measuring distance to a unit(although, yes we have rules that a dependent on distance to specific models as well which is why the context can easily go both ways)
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:21:56
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Kommissar Kel wrote:And Christoph: the context can be taken both ways for the harvest; "the spyder" in the rp rules can be taken under context with the rules for formations as "the spyder unit", and we already have rules for measuring distance to a unit(although, yes we have rules that a dependent on distance to specific models as well which is why the context can easily go both ways)
No, not really. "The Spyder" is not normally used to reference a unit unless it has already been notified as such, which the Formation Special Rule does not go out of its way to do. It is only by implication that it may be considered referencing the unit, but this is really going off topic. As has been stated, there is nothing to contextually take the Chapter Master upgrade away from the Captain unit in the Demi-Company without an ever heavier dose of RAI than that. The closest there is, and this is only circumstantial at best, is the Unique Character options that are allowed to replace the Captain/Chaplain.
So, there is room for a jury of peers to use, but not enough for a judge who will not legislate from a bench.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:27:42
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lieutenant General
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Charistoph wrote: As has been stated, there is nothing to contextually take the Chapter Master upgrade away from the Captain unit in the Demi-Company...
Is there any contextual evidence to support him retaining the ability to be upgraded to a Chapter Master? If not, with GW's inconsistency then there's no definitive answer either way.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:31:53
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Charistoph wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote:And Christoph: the context can be taken both ways for the harvest; "the spyder" in the rp rules can be taken under context with the rules for formations as "the spyder unit", and we already have rules for measuring distance to a unit(although, yes we have rules that a dependent on distance to specific models as well which is why the context can easily go both ways)
No, not really. "The Spyder" is not normally used to reference a unit unless it has already been notified as such, which the Formation Special Rule does not go out of its way to do. It is only by implication that it may be considered referencing the unit, but this is really going off topic. As has been stated, there is nothing to contextually take the Chapter Master upgrade away from the Captain unit in the Demi-Company without an ever heavier dose of RAI than that. The closest there is, and this is only circumstantial at best, is the Unique Character options that are allowed to replace the Captain/Chaplain.
So, there is room for a jury of peers to use, but not enough for a judge who will not legislate from a bench.
Well the RAW is pretty clear as you said - Yes, you can take the CM upgrade. No need for any jury or judge.
The Spyder is just an example of utterly broken RAW. It doesn't work without bending at least one rule, and by then you can simply throw out the actual RAW and call whatever you're doing RAI / HIWPI since that's exactly what it is. And by that makes the Spyder completely irrelevant to ANY discussion on how to read a different RAW section that works without bending rules.
The Gladius with a Chapter Master model works just fine rules-wise, all it does is ruffle a few feathers on some "pseudo-fluff-players" (since as was pointed out you can easily explain why a CM leads a Demi-Company, fluffwise). Automatically Appended Next Post: Ghaz wrote:Charistoph wrote: As has been stated, there is nothing to contextually take the Chapter Master upgrade away from the Captain unit in the Demi-Company...
Is there any contextual evidence to support him retaining the ability to be upgraded to a Chapter Master? If not, with GW's inconsistency then there's no definitive answer either way.
You know how the ruleset works, mate. Permission was given and not retracted. How would we know a Power Sword was still a valid choice?
And RAI is not relevant to a RAW discussion. If you choose to ban the CM upgrade - like the ITC did - that's HYWPI - but that still doesn't make it RAW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 21:34:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:44:46
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Lieutenant General
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It has nothing to do with permissions. GW already muddied the waters with the Canoptek Harvest by referring to a specific type of model and not a unit. So again, do we have any contextual evidence that GW is talking about a unit or a specific type of model? And if it is a specific type of model, you're no longer that specific type of model if you take an upgrade that makes him a different type of model.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/03 21:54:59
Subject: Chapter Master in a Demi-company?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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They muddied the waters before Necrons with the Grey Knight Formation.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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