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Hey guys

Sorry for so many threads but I am buying a codex and some models friday so am trying to figure things out.

The thing is I love the idea of guardsman and the tanks. But have a problem when in the lore john the space marine shows up, then everyone hands everything over to him. So is it possible or even in the lore a species of humans or guardsman that are trying to fix the galaxy from all coruption including space marines\ emperor? After all they are mutated and should be destroyed like the mutated chaos same thing right?

OgreChubbs wrote:
But have a problem when in the lore john the space marine shows up, then everyone hands everything over to him.

You might need to explain what you mean, there.

So is it possible or even in the lore a species of humans or guardsman that are trying to fix the galaxy from all coruption including space marines\ emperor? After all they are mutated and should be destroyed like the mutated chaos same thing right?

Not all mutants are bad in the Imperium. Just unstable ones, as they are tainted by Chaos.

Having said that, there's no reason there couldn't be a human faction that doesn't want anything to do with the Imperium.

Genestealer Cutl

Ok so there can be a pure human force against marines good good.

Btw what I mean is the lore I read and such all are kinda the same guardsman are dieing space marine show up the gurds all do what ever they say no questions asked. It always pissed me off, just cause your a mutant freak doesnt mean you can use my men as fodder.

That is one of the guards jobs, to hold the line and die so the SM can focus on their mission. Because when the SM show up it is a all or nothing type deal. As in if the SM fail, the guard and the world they are on will soon be no longer.

It could be worse if the GK show up, the guard is mind wiped on a good day and purged on any other day. If it is need or not.

Space Marines aren't mutants, they are bio-enhanced cyborgs. Their bio-enhancements make them demigods, while their roll in the Imperium places them towards the top of the military hierarchy. Yet, Space Marines in and of themselves don't command any forces other than their own Chapters. The only group with authority to command snyone are Inquisitors.

SJ

It's not chain of command that gives the Astartes the authority to say what guardsmen should do. It's the fact that The Emperor himself created them. To doubt their wisdom is to doubt The Emperor himself.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Hey guys

Sorry for so many threads but I am buying a codex and some models friday so am trying to figure things out.

The thing is I love the idea of guardsman and the tanks. But have a problem when in the lore john the space marine shows up, then everyone hands everything over to him. So is it possible or even in the lore a species of humans or guardsman that are trying to fix the galaxy from all coruption including space marines\ emperor? After all they are mutated and should be destroyed like the mutated chaos same thing right?

Sounds there like the rhetoric of an ultra puritan (or indeed ultra radical, depending on how you interpret this philosophical view) member of the Ecclesiarachy.

It's been covered in the background before in the 2nd ed. Sisters codex in a box out on page 50.

The Inquisition is a vast organisation of an unending amount of philosophies. I have no doubt doubt there would be Inquisitors who hold exactly that view (Humanity has been corrupted by existence of Space Marines - after all wasn't it these very Space Marines that were the fault of the Horus Heresy and the slow decline of the Imperium?)

And as noted above, the Ecclesiarchy is an extremely pro-human, pro God Emperor organisation. The Ecclesiarchy officially tolerates the existence of the Cult Mechanicus and the Adeptus Astartes non-conformance to the Imperial Creed because they are a necessary function of the Imperium. But privately there's probably more than a few Ecclesiastical members who would like nothing more than to see those heretical Tech Priests and Space Marines be cleansed by Holy Promethium.

GoonBandito and Grimtuff have nailed it. There could easily be an ultra-puritan sect of the Ecclesiarchy on some planet that preaches such strict purity and adherence to the Imperial faith that even Space Marines aren't pure enough (being that they're genetically modified post-human "mutants" and many of them don't worship the Emperor as a literal god, venerating him as the father of their primarch instead).

So your army could be the local PDF (planetary defense force) or a freshly raised guard regiment, still under their planet's teachings and accompanied by preachers, who would rather turn on the Space Marines than let them render assistance during a battle. This won't necessarily end well for them in the long run...

Inquisition led forces are pure human and 100% above the command of space marines.

If you want rebels there's a "renegades and heretics" codex from FW that uses largely the same models as IG just with more rebellious rules.

Going by your title, it sounds like you're actually asking;

"Can I do this thing, even if there's nothing in the lore to support it?"

The answer to which is YES!

Here's a question - When writing a book or screenplay, how do you kill a vampire? Think of an answer before opening up this spoiler text:



So go ahead and have ultra-puritan guardsmen fighting the Space Marines! Make up any story you like, because that's YOUR lore. It's a pretty big galaxy, and there are still human colonies out there that have never even heard of the Emperor, so whatever you come up with in theory "could" happen somewhere in that vast a galaxy. Cheers!

the_scotsman wrote:
Inquisition led forces are pure human and 100% above the command of space marines.

If you want rebels there's a "renegades and heretics" codex from FW that uses largely the same models as IG just with more rebellious rules.

If you think Inquisitors lead 100% pure human forces, you've never seen their henchmen options.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Inquisition led forces are pure human and 100% above the command of space marines.

If you want rebels there's a "renegades and heretics" codex from FW that uses largely the same models as IG just with more rebellious rules.

If you think Inquisitors lead 100% pure human forces, you've never seen their henchmen options.

SJ

Puritan Inquisitors yeh, the more radical ones just get the job done and don't worry so much about that stuff.

So I guess I will be doin imperal guard that are pureity death to the mutants starting at home. Death to the space mutants/marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh what symbols need to be removed to make sure they anti mutant/emperor/marines?

OgreChubbs wrote:
So I guess I will be doin imperal guard that are pureity death to the mutants starting at home. Death to the space mutants/marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh what symbols need to be removed to make sure they anti mutant/emperor/marines?

They would need to be very low-key in their operations, as to declare open war against the Astartes would not end well. They could be more subversive and cult-like though.

As for symbols, you'd actually be alright with keeping them as is.

OgreChubbs wrote:
But have a problem when in the lore john the space marine shows up, then everyone hands everything over to him.

Strictly speaking, the Space Marines and the Guard have separate command structures to prevent this sort of thing from happening. As it ended up causing a lot of trouble long long ago.

OgreChubbs wrote:
So is it possible or even in the lore a species of humans or guardsman that are trying to fix the galaxy from all coruption including space marines\ emperor?

One of these is several orders of magnitude easier than the other, and even that's not particularily easy.

Others have suggested the Ecclesiarchy as an angle for this, but strictly speaking, the Ministorum is forbidden from maintaining men under arms, as it ended up causing a lot of trouble long long ago.

... And ironically enough, the forces that they do maintain (Sisters of Battle, not strictly men under arms) seem more inclined (to me, anyway) to be the sort to step into the midst of a guard regiment and start bossing people around, rather than space marines...

Depending on how far down the rabbit hole you want to with it, it could be something like a regular guard unit being positioned in such a manner to achieve certain goals irrespective of what the Astartes are trying to do in the same area or something as far out as an entire world manipulated into proclaiming a twisted version of the imperial creed that depicts the Astartes as the Emperor's jailers and usurpers of his will.

Either way, they're pretty much on the fast track to being in conflict with the wider Imperium. If they're not obliterated by the first Astartes they come into conflict with, or other guard elements, or whatever menace they were actually supposed to be fighting, or glassed from orbit, there's always the Ordo Militarum or Ordo Hereticus ready to burn them for not towing the line.

... Actually, I could see an Inquisitor pulling their strings. Either a rogue or far radical trying to achieve certain ends or else just generally kept in the back pocket in case they need to pull some anti-astartes action.

They wouldn't last very long being openly against ALL mutation in the Imperium, The astartes are some of the top dogs and the Emporer himself is not exactly human and created them

you wouldn't really be imperial guard, you'd be heretics (and possibly short lived ones at that)

GAdvance wrote:
They wouldn't last very long being openly against ALL mutation in the Imperium, The astartes are some of the top dogs and the Emporer himself is not exactly human and created them

you wouldn't really be imperial guard, you'd be heretics (and possibly short lived ones at that)

And you know what a we do to heretics in the Imperium don't you?

 Captain Joystick wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
But have a problem when in the lore john the space marine shows up, then everyone hands everything over to him.

Strictly speaking, the Space Marines and the Guard have separate command structures to prevent this sort of thing from happening. As it ended up causing a lot of trouble long long ago.

This. Marines (or the Imperial Navy for that matter) can't order guardsmen around. What happens when several forces are dealing with the same situation is that they'll hold a conference, decide if one of the commanders has the experience to take overall command or whether it's even necessary. Marines often fail to show up for this, just sending a message with some general information on what they'll be doing. Even when working together with another force on the ground marines are often reluctant to take command or even offer advice - like the Adepta Sororitas coordinating with the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon, for example. Canoness Carmina wrote in her report that Chapter Master Gabriel Seth offered her no counsel and she has come to expect this of marines after a century of leading her Sisters in battle. She had to figure out how to deploy in support of the marines on her own.

The guardsmen often hand over everything because they see the space marines as the emperors chosen, at least in the books ive read.

Also, picture this, youre your adult self, between 5 ad 7 ft tall, maybe you can bench press 2 or 300 pounds, your wearing armor that probably would have trouble stopping bullets and ammunition that we have in today's world. Then a space marine walks up to you, 7-10 ft tall, clad in full power armor capable of bench pressing a fuckin truck. You know because hes a SM that hes probably over a hundred years old and has seen many battles, you know hes on your side, he asks your squad to do something. You're probably gonna do it.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Ok so there can be a pure human force against marines good good.

Btw what I mean is the lore I read and such all are kinda the same guardsman are dieing space marine show up the gurds all do what ever they say no questions asked. It always pissed me off, just cause your a mutant freak doesnt mean you can use my men as fodder.

Space Marines are the Emperor's Own Angels of Death. The average Imperial Guardsmen has been taught, since birth, that the Space Marines are the closest link to the God-Emperor of Mankind, that currently exist. Space Marines are viewed, by just about everyone in the galaxy, as demi-gods.

Of course you are going to treat them with deference and respect, they are the Emperor's grand-children.

It's possible for something like that to happen, there are plenty of radical sects of the Imperial Creed. It's possible for one of them to view Space Marines as mutants and want to kill them.