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So a few things with the new hunter contingent, I was wondering for some clarification, and wanted to suggest a few things.

So the Hunter contingent gets to focus fire and fires as one unit, gaining special abilities and rules. This would mean that drone controllers would apply. This brings about an entirely new Mark'O meta. He no longer needs to be part of drone units to focus fire with them. This makes, it seems to me, the drone network a great option for a cheap way to get some extra super-accurate dakka from gun drones, or the ability to have your commander fire at something along with a unit of marker drones to give them BS5(6 if 3 units are joining). The other interesting thing this means is that sniper drones suddenly see a new use. They can shoot at something with their BS5 markerlights on the marksmen, and sniper shots(usually useful) and give other drones BS5 because of the marksmen's drone controller.

I also have a question because it came up in a game yesterday, can you shoot with a unit that can't harm a target to give other units bonuses? I have 3 groups of fire warriors lying around in this formation without Objsec, making them all but useless at holding objectives. Their str5 guns are good against infantry, but would I be able to not use their guns, and still count them as shooting together with another unit at something? Like an AV13 tank for example, which my riptide would be able to shred.

Im not 100% sure on this but im pretty sure the ITC and the majority of players are ruling against ability sharing.

That's what I'm ruling until we get an FAQ or something as well, since I almost always overkill when I focus fire anyways, and it's kinda BS to give half your army tank hunters lol... Although it does give us potential titan-killing power.

Drones' markerlights aren't networked. Mark'O isn't a good idea in Hunter Contingent.

You can fire at something you can't hurt, so your second idea is ok.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Im not 100% sure on this but im pretty sure the ITC and the majority of players are ruling against ability sharing.

Strange, I'm not noticing such behavior from the majority of players. Some, yes.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Im not 100% sure on this but im pretty sure the ITC and the majority of players are ruling against ability sharing.

ITC has not ruled yet, but are leaning toward allowing sharing, just not spreading with target locks (which RAW should also be allowed)

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Im not 100% sure on this but im pretty sure the ITC and the majority of players are ruling against ability sharing.

Well I would like to rule against 200 point undercoated wraithknights, scatterlasers on every jetbike, necrons decurions making wraiths even more rediculous to remove from the board, and 500 free points in assault canon razorbacks. Where do I go to sign up to change the rules from as written to how I personally would like them played?

Seriously front line did 2 separate batreps to show how big and bad the new tau combined fire rules would break the game. Know the results? Both times the game looked to be a loss for tau after turn ONE when the alpha strike failed to materialize. "Oh but those were both rock to the taus scissors, those don't count for judging their power!". So what. My orks are hard countered by wyverns. Dosent mean tourneys are going to remove them anytime soon. I have yet to see a reliable solid answer that gives you +50 prevent win rate against necrons recursion, eldar bike spam, or marine objective secured 10+ free vehicle spa. Lists.

hmm, maybe i am mistaken..... but i thought they had decided against ability sharing as it "breaks the game" on a bunch of different levels i.e. this unit is standing on a skyfire objective, these 3 units are gonna fire at your plane, all 3 units have skyfire now.

personally i wouldnt play it that way(allowing ability sharing of any form), i also dont see anything to stop TLs from working, however, if they aren't firing at the same unit as everyone else they dont get +1BS.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
hmm, maybe i am mistaken..... but i thought they had decided against ability sharing as it "breaks the game" on a bunch of different levels i.e. this unit is standing on a skyfire objective, these 3 units are gonna fire at your plane, all 3 units have skyfire now.

That's not the same thing as breaking the game, it's just a formation that is arguably overpowered. The rules function just fine.

however, if they aren't firing at the same unit as everyone else they dont get +1BS.

They do.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
hmm, maybe i am mistaken..... but i thought they had decided against ability sharing as it "breaks the game" on a bunch of different levels i.e. this unit is standing on a skyfire objective, these 3 units are gonna fire at your plane, all 3 units have skyfire now.

personally i wouldnt play it that way(allowing ability sharing of any form), i also dont see anything to stop TLs from working, however, if they aren't firing at the same unit as everyone else they dont get +1BS.

Haven't decided yet. Vote is coming soon. But in their recent podcast #386, they are leaning toward rule sharing without target lock splitting.

what does without target lock splitting mean? that they cant do it at all during CFP? or they dont gain any abilities if they TL? Because not being able to, to me is just wrong, it doesnt say all models must shoot just that the unit must, which it would be still.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
what does without target lock splitting mean? that they cant do it at all during CFP? or they dont gain any abilities if they TL? Because not being able to, to me is just wrong, it doesnt say all models must shoot just that the unit must, which it would be still.

It means that a unit with a buffmander and crisis suits with targets locks cannot each shoot at a different target and form 3 separate coordinating firepowers at three targets each having all of the buffmanders rules.

I agree its not RAW. They even said the interpretation they are leaning toward is the least RAW, but is in between the 2 readings of the rule people are arguing about.

see thats why i think if they just rule it so that TLs dont get the BS+1 since they arent combining their fire, but the buffmander giving bonuses to his own unit and their target locks has been a thing. I think they are going about the nerf the wrong way lol

The maximum reading of the CF rules is fundamentally different from things such as undercosted Wraithknights because it does not simply imbalance the game, but literally does not do what the rule is stated to be doing, which is to say a number of units combining their fire. It does in fact the opposite. Hence this reading is almost certainly wrong.

Drone controller with Drones in CF is fine. Drones are part of the unit like any other model. You won't be able to use any of the Markerlight abilities with that CF unit though.

Individual models using Split Fire or Target Locks in units declaring Coordinated Fire is fine RAW. Those models using SF/TL won't get the CF +1BS or CF shared buffs and cannot declare or join in on another CF. The rule is quite clear, units declare or join in on CF, not individual models. Only models firing at the CF Target gets the +1BS, thus models from units that choose to shoot at different targets do not count towards the rule for CF. You would need three new fresh units to start a new CF phase if that is the case. The use of the words models / units is not a coincidence much in the same way the new Tau Firebase Support Cadre Firestorm rule or Necron Decurion Reanimation Protocols state the word models (not units).

And yes you can shoot with a unit even if it cannot harm the target. So you can use any "useless" units to cound towards CF if you want to. They still need Line of Sight to target etc.

Alcibiades wrote:
The maximum reading of the CF rules is fundamentally different from things such as undercosted Wraithknights because it does not simply imbalance the game, but literally does not do what the rule is stated to be doing, which is to say a number of units combining their fire. It does in fact the opposite. Hence this reading is almost certainly wrong.

Everything you just said is 100% opinion and 0% fact or RAW based. RAW USR are shared.

So I've been running a drone controller commander with a shas'vre XV8 with the ingores cover plus Twin-linked wargear, and 2 XV8s with double plasma and TL, with a total of 6 marker drones in my hunter contingent and it's been working pretty good thus far. They're a great unit to just fire on their own since they're twin-linked, and those super-accurate markerlights have gotten me at least 1 or 2 kills so far. I actually managed to kill an invisible thunderwolf deathstar with librarius conclave today in a match.

I also managed to kill his stormwolf with TL shots backed up by supporting fire from two pathfinder squads, I've been wondering though, I CAN snapfire at BS2 if I use coordinated fire right? Because getting all those TL BS2 markerlights on his flyer saved the day, I managed to kill a wolf lord in it when it crash&burned. Yayyy str10 instant death.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The maximum reading of the CF rules is fundamentally different from things such as undercosted Wraithknights because it does not simply imbalance the game, but literally does not do what the rule is stated to be doing, which is to say a number of units combining their fire. It does in fact the opposite. Hence this reading is almost certainly wrong.

Everything you just said is 100% opinion and 0% fact or RAW based. RAW USR are shared.

That the rule as written does not do what it is stated to be representing, which is to say combining fire at a single target, and thus is different from inappropriate unit pricing, is not my opinion, it is true.

I am not refering to USR sharing but to extension of the rule to models firing at other targets via target lock. This is the opposite of combining fire at one target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now it may be that the designers intended the rule to be used in this way, but I cannot think offhand of a comparable case elsewhere in the game. This is anomalous.

 Nalydyn wrote:
So I've been running a drone controller commander with a shas'vre XV8 with the ingores cover plus Twin-linked wargear, and 2 XV8s with double plasma and TL, with a total of 6 marker drones in my hunter contingent and it's been working pretty good thus far. They're a great unit to just fire on their own since they're twin-linked, and those super-accurate markerlights have gotten me at least 1 or 2 kills so far. I actually managed to kill an invisible thunderwolf deathstar with librarius conclave today in a match.

I also managed to kill his stormwolf with TL shots backed up by supporting fire from two pathfinder squads, I've been wondering though, I CAN snapfire at BS2 if I use coordinated fire right? Because getting all those TL BS2 markerlights on his flyer saved the day, I managed to kill a wolf lord in it when it crash&burned. Yayyy str10 instant death.

Can you snap fire at BS2 from 3 or more units ahooting? No. Snap Shots are a set modifier. Coordinated Firepower is an additive modifier. Set modifiers are applied last. The only exceptions to this are markerlights, which add on top later in the sequence.

Correct me if (where) I am getting any of this wrong.

Coordinated firepower says that I can gain +1 BS if targeting a unit with the combined firepower of 3 or more units. It also says that those units count as firing as one unit.

If it gets nerfed, they will likely delete the second sentence. Why? Because it is causing all these problems.

So a unit that contributes fire has to select the focused unit as its PRIMARY target, yes?

The rules say that you can target a unit with weapons that cannot hurt it? Now though, there are 3 things that determine whether or not you can actually hurt your target:
1. Str of the shot - good, so our markerlights aren't useless.
(unfortunately, there are 2 other conditions that can be inferred by that rule)
2. Range of the weapon. the bolter\lascannon example. A Space marine tactical squad shoots at a Land Raider 40" away. the unit is allowed to shoot at it, even though the bolter is out of range. So, since it is one unit shooting, a model with a weapon out of range can contribute its fire to the shot. Are we really going to tell every imperial player that they cannot use the range of their heavy weapons because the sergeant's pistol also cannot range to the target?
3. Line of Sight. Hello? Smart Missile Systems? since when has LoS been a problem for our fire?

Alcibiades wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The maximum reading of the CF rules is fundamentally different from things such as undercosted Wraithknights because it does not simply imbalance the game, but literally does not do what the rule is stated to be doing, which is to say a number of units combining their fire. It does in fact the opposite. Hence this reading is almost certainly wrong.

Everything you just said is 100% opinion and 0% fact or RAW based. RAW USR are shared.

That the rule as written does not do what it is stated to be representing, which is to say combining fire at a single target, and thus is different from inappropriate unit pricing, is not my opinion, it is true.

I am not refering to USR sharing but to extension of the rule to models firing at other targets via target lock. This is the opposite of combining fire at one target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now it may be that the designers intended the rule to be used in this way, but I cannot think offhand of a comparable case elsewhere in the game. This is anomalous.

Again, incorrect. The rule says each UNIT fires at the same target, which they still would be. NOWHERE does it says every single model in each unit need to fire at the same target. The UNIT combines fire, and then a model in the unit uses its target lock to fire at a different target.

An interesting side note is that the new FBSC formation specifically states that all models in the formation must fire at the same target. I believe that CF was intentionally written as unit not model. But I think the ITC leaning of Buffmander=yes, TL=no is fair. It's not RAW in any way. But it does make CF powerful but avoids the TL brokenness.

Median Trace wrote:
An interesting side note is that the new FBSC formation specifically states that all models in the formation must fire at the same target. I believe that CF was intentionally written as unit not model. But I think the ITC leaning of Buffmander=yes, TL=no is fair. It's not RAW in any way. But it does make CF powerful but avoids the TL brokenness.

Exactly. If you compare the rules for FBSC and CFP, it is obvious the intention of TL working for sharing rules in CFP and not FBSC