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so at our local gaming store we're doing a build up campaign to introduce new players and build up to the epic battles. this week we started large base ships and me being the imperialist took the shuttle.
I took this 100pt list as a bit of a laugh and see if it would stick.
Colonel Jendon shuttle
ST-321 named shuttle
APL sensor jammer
heavy lasers
navigator
Tie punisher
cluster mines
ion pulse missiles
extra munitions
Tie bomber
ion bomb
my opponent took:
Boba fett
tie fighter
tie interceptor
all with various upgrades of which I can't remember
i lost rather quickly and I believe I flew rather well. but the shuttle just doesn't seem to have the punch one would think it would.
does anyone have any lists for the shuttle? I could of taken a tie swarm but I played that last week with vader with 5 ties and it's rather deadly and wanted to try something new.
The critical error you made is to stack the upgrades on the shuttle, the key to any sort of success with it is to exploit the fact it has the best HP:points cost ratio in the game, with a decent primary, and to run them as cheaply as possible.
They're a good bus for Palpatine, and one could maybe justify an EU, but otherwise keep the upgrades to a minimum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe something like
Omicron Group Pilot
Enhanced Scopes (makes an excellent blocker because of base size)
Engine Upgrade
26pts
Honestly, I probably wouldn't run the Enhanced Scopes, but it's an option if you want to make the shuttle more of a thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 00:58:47
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
The main problem is you've got a lot of points invested in handing out target locks, but nothing that really cares about stacking focus + target lock. And then you've got even more points invested in turning your support ship into a combat ship with the HLC and sensor jammer. So after that initial pass, once your shuttle gets out-maneuvered, you have half your list being dead weight. At that point your opponent can pretty much ignore your shuttle, kill the rest of your ships (which isn't very hard in this list), and then finish off the shuttle once it's convenient.
If you want to take a shuttle you need to keep it efficient. If you're using Jendon make sure you have something to do with the target locks. If you're taking a gun platform drop the upgrades (except maybe the advanced sensors + engine upgrade combo, if you're willing to practice flying it effectively) and rely on its very good math value to have it contribute even if it only gets a single effective pass. If you want to take a suicide Vader ship certainly drop the upgrades. Etc.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
My issue with APL has always been, and remains, it only works when your opponent flies into you, not vice versa, and then relies on a roll to do anything even then.
Sure, it isn't a hugely expensive upgrade, but it's spending points on something that relies both on chance and your opponent making an error.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: My issue with APL has always been, and remains, it only works when your opponent flies into you, not vice versa, and then relies on a roll to do anything even then.
Which is why it works on a low PS, large base ship. It makes ships that like to get close play it much more carefully because instead of just losing actions, they could take damage.
The US Nationals have proven that APL can be a decent investment.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
I'm not sure 3 ships in the top 100+ lists (one of which was on Dash, so not a low PS ship) can be called proof exactly?
Unless there's some sort of write up illustrating that they were anything other than make weights and couldn't have been substituted for something else more effective?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: I'm not sure 3 ships in the top 100+ lists (one of which was on Dash, so not a low PS ship) can be called proof exactly?
Dash is PS 7, which means he's a low PS compared to true aces. Also, referencing the fact that was featured in a winning Nationals list wasn't being used to illustrate my original point that it works best in on a low PS large based ship, just illustrating that it can be useful (which is why it was in a separate paragraph).
Unless there's some sort of write up illustrating that they were anything other than make weights and couldn't have been substituted for something else more effective?
Because it won him the final match. He successfully blocked his opponent's Fel and knocked Stealth advice off of him.
That's worth two points that would have otherwise been wasted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 04:25:36
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Azreal13 wrote: I'm not sure 3 ships in the top 100+ lists (one of which was on Dash, so not a low PS ship) can be called proof exactly?
Unless there's some sort of write up illustrating that they were anything other than make weights and couldn't have been substituted for something else more effective?
In the metagame of the time PS 7 is actually pretty low. And it's especially relevant on Dash because of the donut hole issue, APL makes you think twice about how aggressively you want to try to close in to get into the donut hole.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: He successfully blocked his opponent's Fel and knocked Stealth advice off of him.
Slight nitpick here: APL will NOT turn off stealth device. Stealth device is discarded if you are hit by an attack, not whenever you suffer damage. Damage effects that are not attacks (asteroids, assault missile splash damage, bombs, etc) apply their damage as usual but do not trigger the discard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 05:15:57
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Yeah, you're right; I completely spaced on that one.
Now that I think about, I'm pretty sure Fel's SD was already gone and it might have been the APL that actually killed him and ended the game.
EDIT: Here's the game. He loses SD pretty early at little after 14 minutes in, on a range 3 shot from a B-wing:
He hits Fel with APL at around the 33:00 mark and then a B-wing finishes him off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 16:37:00
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
The shutte isn't really something you want to use up points upgrading to any great degree.
However a list with a basic Shuttle with Emperor Crew (plus maybe a FCS) plus a couple of aces, or a mini-swarm plus 1 ace would most likely be more effective than faffing about with target locks and ordanance
Or you can just go all out Herd mode (Shuttles come in Herds, not swarms) and have 4 Omni-Shuttles with FCS, plus upgrades to taste ! (note this list may not be entirely sensible !)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 12:28:16
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Azreal13 wrote: I'm not sure 3 ships in the top 100+ lists (one of which was on Dash, so not a low PS ship) can be called proof exactly?
Dash is PS 7, which means he's a low PS compared to true aces. Also, referencing the fact that was featured in a winning Nationals list wasn't being used to illustrate my original point that it works best in on a low PS large based ship, just illustrating that it can be useful (which is why it was in a separate paragraph).
Unless there's some sort of write up illustrating that they were anything other than make weights and couldn't have been substituted for something else more effective?
Because it won him the final match. He successfully blocked his opponent's Fel and knocked Stealth advice off of him.
That's worth two points that would have otherwise been wasted.
Oh, come now, you're trying to argue that PS 7 on a standard scale of 1-10 is low?! Aside from the fact that the link you referenced features a number of lists heavy on generic pilots, your original point didn't say relatively low so it really just looks like you're revising your position rather than admit your error.
Equally, I'm not buying that the one time that the upgrade worked well makes it a compelling choice.
I'm not saying it's useless, there are plenty of situations where it could do something in most games, I'm just saying one has to think really hard before including it in a list over other choices, at least in a competitive environment.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Oh, come now, you're trying to argue that PS 7 on a standard scale of 1-10 is low?!
In a meta dominated by PS 9+ ships, absolutely. When you're flying against aces, anything under PS 9 (or 8) is no different than a PS 1 generic.
Aside from the fact that the link you referenced features a number of lists heavy on generic pilots, your original point didn't say relatively low so it really just looks like you're revising your position rather than admit your error.
I didn't make an error, you're just reaching in attempt to prove me wrong, which I'm not.
Equally, I'm not buying that the one time that the upgrade worked well makes it a compelling choice.
When someone uses something to win a National Championship, it's worth paying attention to.
That's how the meta works.
I'm not saying it's useless, there are plenty of situations where it could do something in most games, I'm just saying one has to think really hard before including it in a list over other choices, at least in a competitive environment.
It's proven effective in a competitive environment but being used effectively in a competitive environment, as evidenced by the List Juggler link I provided. Also, I'm not saying it's the best upgrade ever, only that it can be used effectively. Your argument against it is you have to spend two points on "something that relies both on chance and your opponent making an error," which is basically everything in this game.
Look dude, if you don't think it's worth two points on ships that can exploit it, that's fine. Just don't sit here and try in vain to pick me apart and then put words in my mouth instead of just admitting you don't know what you're talking about.
Go argue with someone else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 15:46:52
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Azreal13 wrote: Oh, come now, you're trying to argue that PS 7 on a standard scale of 1-10 is low?!
In a meta dominated by PS 9+ ships, absolutely. When you're flying against aces, anything under PS 9 (or 8) is no different than a PS 1 generic.
Aside from the fact that the link you referenced features a number of lists heavy on generic pilots, your original point didn't say relatively low so it really just looks like you're revising your position rather than admit your error.
I didn't make an error, you're just reaching in attempt to prove me wrong, which I'm not.
7 out of 10 is not low. If you're using a low PS ship as a blocker, you do not select a PS7 pilot, as it makes it completely redundant against all generic and many named pilots.
Equally, I'm not buying that the one time that the upgrade worked well makes it a compelling choice.
When someone uses something to win a National Championship, it's worth paying attention to.
That's how the meta works.
Ok, so what does the fact that every list in the top 100 at worlds that's been submitted to list juggler doesn't include APL say about the meta?
I'm not saying it's useless, there are plenty of situations where it could do something in most games, I'm just saying one has to think really hard before including it in a list over other choices, at least in a competitive environment.
It's proven effective in a competitive environment but being used effectively in a competitive environment, as evidenced by the List Juggler link I provided. Also, I'm not saying it's the best upgrade ever, only that it can be used effectively. Your argument against it is you have to spend two points on "something that relies both on chance and your opponent making an error," which is basically everything in this game.
Working once does not prove anything. If it was an upgrade that showed up repeatedly and was deciding games frequently, you'd have a case. You're citing one instance, which happened to be pivotal, admittedly, and trying to argue that APL working at a fortuitously opportune moment somehow proves it isn't, at best, a situational upgrade. There's plenty of upgrades that work more reliably than APL. The guy chose to take them, they happened to work, kudos to him, but you're trying to make a much stronger case for it in general than the evidence supports.
Look dude, if you don't think it's worth two points on ships that can exploit it, that's fine. Just don't sit here and try in vain to pick me apart and then put words in my mouth instead of just admitting you don't know what you're talking about.
Go argue with someone else.
I'm trying to have a discussion about the merits or lack of for APL, you're the one who apparently can't handle anyone having an informed opinion that differs from his own and must drag it down into a fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 16:42:41
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: In a meta dominated by PS 9+ ships, absolutely. When you're flying against aces, anything under PS 9 (or 8) is no different than a PS 1 generic.
Exactly. Think of PS like BS in 40k, where the scale in theory goes from 0-10 but only a small part of it is actually used. BS 3 is low and BS 5 is high, regardless of their position on the 0-10 scale. Similarly, in certain metagames in X-Wing PS 0-7 occupy the same general "pretty low" category and the real difference exists at 8-11. The jump from PS 8 to PS 9 is way more significant, in that kind of metagame, than the tiny difference between PS 3 and PS 7.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 16:44:46
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: In a meta dominated by PS 9+ ships, absolutely. When you're flying against aces, anything under PS 9 (or 8) is no different than a PS 1 generic.
Exactly. Think of PS like BS in 40k, where the scale in theory goes from 0-10 but only a small part of it is actually used. BS 3 is low and BS 5 is high, regardless of their position on the 0-10 scale. Similarly, in certain metagames in X-Wing PS 0-7 occupy the same general "pretty low" category and the real difference exists at 8-11. The jump from PS 8 to PS 9 is way more significant, in that kind of metagame, than the tiny difference between PS 3 and PS 7.
I understand. Really, I have such a firm grip of the concept that you could suspend me off a building with it and jiggle me up and down in complete certainty I wouldn't fall.
The issue is the first point was "APL is ok on low PS blockers."
The example given showed APL being used on Dash.
My point is Dash, at PS7 is more in the "sub-Ace" bracket, and doesn't really qualify in the sort of ships I'd choose as a "low PS blocker," as not only are you paying a lot of points extra, there's a whole bunch of commonly fielded ships in competitive lists which it won't be effective at blocking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's why in my first response to the OP I suggested the consideration of enhanced scopes, because there's no better blocker than a PS0 blocker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 17:00:22
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Yes, and in the right metagame Dash IS a low-PS blocker. PS 7 means you move before the major threats (Fel/Whisper, RAC, Corran, Han, etc), barrel roll on a large-base ship with a good dial makes Dash effective at blocking, and flying into the path of an enemy ace to deny it the chance to shoot at Dash and take away its actions for Dash's escort to deliver a kill shot is an effective strategy. If the metagame is full of RAC + Whisper/Fel lists then Dash is essentially an academy pilot with a HLC turret.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Agreed, but the lists from the event linked feature a wide variety of lists from aces heavy to pure generics, and in that sort of environment, PS 7 is still relatively high.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: I understand. Really, I have such a firm grip of the concept that you could suspend me off a building with it and jiggle me up and down in complete certainty I wouldn't fall.
You clearly don't because you seem to not understand how PS 7 in a meta full of PS 9 aces is considered low.
The issue is the first point was "APL is ok on low PS blockers."
It is.
The example given showed APL being used on Dash.
Because it works.
My point is Dash, at PS7 is more in the "sub-Ace" bracket, and doesn't really qualify in the sort of ships I'd choose as a "low PS blocker," as not only are you paying a lot of points extra, there's a whole bunch of commonly fielded ships in competitive lists which it won't be effective at blocking.
That is something you cooked up to explain your incorrect point because at no time did I ever describe Dash as a "low PS blocker." Instead, I offered his use of APL as proof that it can and does work. Would I personally put it on Dash? Probably not, but considering how he is a comparably low PS I can see how and why it works. I have put it on Moralo (PS 6, also a low PS) and it has worked well on her.
Quit trying to twist my words and frame it any other way.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
You provided one point of reference. That is not proof.
You weren't even correct in that reference.
Another ship removed the SD and then a further ship killed it off!
I've countered by pointing out that essentially nobody took it in any shape or form at worlds.
This is TLTs all over again, there's basically nothing but your own opinion supporting your view (no, one guy doing something when it mattered once doesn't count) but you can't stand to have someone expressing a different view, and will continue to throw yourself about until you think you've got an excuse to report me.
Carry on...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
The shuttle is nasty when coupled with the new Tie/FO that removes the stress at the combat phase. Played against a guy who basically parked his shuttle, kept the FO tie bumping, and he made you come to him. He had the HLC on the shuttle along with upgrade that causes it to interfere. He made you come to him, and unless you crept along the edge of the play area, you were in the HLC arc. I forgot what else he ran, but it was punishing to go to that shuttle.
Azreal13 wrote: You provided one point of reference. That is not proof.
You offered nothing except your consistently wrong opinion that you like to pass of as fact, like usual.
You weren't even correct in that reference.
Not correct how, exactly? The winner of the US Nationals used APL on his Dash to good effect.
Another ship removed the SD and then a further ship killed it off!
APL did 1/3 of the damage need to kill Fel (one of the hardest ships to hit) and set up the game winning block. It's pretty much is the perfect example of how APL works: put it on a low PS, large base ship, make your enemy run into it, hurt it and deny actions, then leave in vulnerable to the rest of your ships.
That's pretty damn good for a 2 point upgrade that most people overlook.
I've countered by pointing out that essentially nobody took it in any shape or form at worlds.
That doesn't mean anything, especially since I'm talking about Nationals, which is a different competition. Speaking of which, two of the top four lists at the US Nationals featured ships with APL.
This is TLTs all over again, there's basically nothing but your own opinion supporting your view (no, one guy doing something when it mattered once doesn't count) but you can't stand to have someone expressing a different view, and will continue to throw yourself about until you think you've got an excuse to report me.
Oh, you mean that thing that you were totally wrong about and refused to admit it? Yeah, I remember that. I also remember my "opinion" being very much based on the math behind how TLT works, something you decided to completely disregard because you felt that it wasn't that good of an upgrade. I also remember you acted like dick because you were wrong and then whined and cried in a PM to me because someone reported you for acting like a dick.
Since you decided to drag another topic into this, let me ask you something: are you ready to admit that the TLT does consistent, non-negligible damage and is as good as I said it would be? Because the fact that both K-wings and Y-wings equipped with it cleaned house at Worlds this year pretty much proves everything I said about the TLT was correct.
Carry on...
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/11/13 22:29:37
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Azreal13 wrote: You provided one point of reference. That is not proof.
You offered nothing except your consistently wrong opinion that you like to pass of as fact, like usual.
feths sake.
I offered nothing but my opinion which I passed of as my opinion. You're the one who consistently seems to take it as a personal challenge to prove someone's opinion wrong.
You weren't even correct in that reference.
Not correct how, exactly? The winner of the US Nationals used APL on his Dash to good effect.
Citation needed, as far as the information you've provided is concerned, it did 1pt of damage over the whole event, the timing of that damage was extremely fortuitous. Rolling a hit instead of a blank during an attack could have had exactly the same effect on the outcome and cost 0 points.
Another ship removed the SD and then a further ship killed it off!
APL did 1/3 of the damage need to kill Fel. That's pretty damn good for a 2 point upgrade that people overlook.
Didn't strip him of his SD and kill him, as this story started off though, did it?
I've countered by pointing out that essentially nobody took it in any shape or form at worlds.
That doesn't mean anything, especially since I'm talking about Nationals, which is a different competition. Speaking of which, two of the top four lists at the US Nationals featured ships with APL.
Nobody taking it at worlds is exactly as valid as so,embody taking it at nationals. Except the Worlds are, you know, the Worlds, and presumably featuring a much higher standard of player. How come you're allowed to use nationals as an example of how it's good, and yet I'm not allowed to use another, larger, tournament to display that it probably isn't all that?
This is TLTs all over again, there's basically nothing but your own opinion supporting your view (no, one guy doing something when it mattered once doesn't count) but you can't stand to have someone expressing a different view, and will continue to throw yourself about until you think you've got an excuse to report me.
Oh, you mean that thing that you were totally wrong about and refused to admit it? Yeah, I remember that. I also remember my "opinion" being very much based on the math behind how TLT works, something you decided to completely disregard because you felt that it wasn't that good of an upgrade. I also remember you acted like dick because you were wrong and then whined and cried in a PM to me because someone reported you for acting like a dick.
"Someone" right.
The TLT is exactly as good as I expected it to be, give or take, you seemed to think it was game breaking, I merely tried to suggest it was good, but you weren't having any such moderate opinions in one of your threads.
Since you decided to drag another topic into this, let me ask you something: are you ready to admit that the TLT does consistent, non-negligible damage and is as good as I said it would be? Because the fact that both K-wings and Y-wings equipped with it clean house at Worlds this year pretty much proves everything I said about the TLT was correct.
No, because you continually misunderstood my position, I never claimed it wasn't good, I just didn't think it was a game breaker, and as multiple non-TLT based lists did just fine, I'm quite happy that's where it's at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit
It appears I did say it might not be a "consistent damage dealer" so I will hold my hands up to that, but I still remember spending most of that thread getting shouted at for not believing that TLTs were the new messiah, and I still stand by that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But going back and linking to people's threads? Are you really that keen to be right on the Internet? I'll grant you may be right here, but on the "not being hugely intense about games" front, I'm claiming a victory.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/13 22:34:44
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: I offered nothing but my opinion which I passed of as my opinion. You're the one who consistently seems to take it as a personal challenge to prove someone's opinion wrong.
And you opinion is what, that APL isn't that good? You have backed that up with what, exactly? Oh, right.... nothing.
Citation needed, as far as the information you've provided is concerned, it did 1pt of damage over the whole event, the timing of that damage was extremely fortuitous. Rolling a hit instead of a blank during an attack could have had exactly the same effect on the outcome and cost 0 points.
It did one point of damage in that one game that I linked a video too. That one point of damage was also on the best ship on the board, the same ship that has three hull points.
That two points paid for itself in spades.
Didn't strip him of his SD and kill him, as this story started off though, did it?
Yeah, because I miss-remembered the game. Which I realized after it was brought to my attention and then watched the game footage.
Keep acting like that has feth all to do with it.
Nobody taking it at worlds is exactly as valid as so,embody taking it at nationals. Except the Worlds are, you know, the Worlds, and presumably featuring a much higher standard of player. How come you're allowed to use nationals as an example of how it's good, and yet I'm not allowed to use another, larger, tournament to display that it probably isn't all that?
There is your imaginary argument again. You do realize that you're arguing from nothing, right?
The TLT is exactly as good as I expected it to be, give or take, you seemed to think it was game breaking, I merely tried to suggest it was good, but you weren't having any such moderate opinions in one of your threads.
I said it was "game breaking?" Seriously? I'm pretty this is exactly what I said:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: However, you should be sold on TLT because it's quite good. No, it won't break the game, but it's a serious threat.
But please, continue to act like I said something completely different.
No, because you continually misunderstood my position, I never claimed it wasn't good, I just didn't think it was a game breaker, and as multiple non-TLT based lists did just fine, I'm quite happy that's where it's at.
Right. Again, you're making up an argument out of nothing and completely ignoring what you wrote.
You're nothing short of incorrigible, my friend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: It appears I did say it might not be a "consistent damage dealer" so I will hold my hands up to that, but I still remember spending most of that thread getting shouted at for not believing that TLTs were the new messiah, and I still stand by that.
No one, especially not me, ever said that TLT was the "new messiah." Your argument was it wasn't going to be consistent damage and that the damage was negligible, both things that the math said were incorrect and have been proven by the current meta. I stressed that it was a good upgrade on ships that can take it, but not game breaking.
In reality, it's performed better than what I expected it to do (based on how many of them were at Worlds).
But going back and linking to people's threads? Are you really that keen to be right on the Internet? I'll grant you may be right here, but on the "not being hugely intense about games" front, I'm claiming a victory.
You can thank Google for that.
Also, don't make dumb arguments and accuse people of saying things they didn't say while denying things you said and it won't be an issue.
I mean seriously, this started by me saying that people using it have shown that APLcan be decent investment. You took that as some sort of attack and got super defensive, started making up arguments (claiming I think it's the greatest thing ever and that I think you think it's worthless? None of those things were said, by the way), moving goalposts, and then dragging another old thread into it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/13 22:58:45
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Pro tip, none of this matters, it's just fun. I wouldn't argue half as hard if you weren't so obviously desperate to be king of Dakka X Wing.
For future reference, I sometimes use my own words rather than quote someone verbatim, if you try and grasp the general point rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae of me saying "dark side" when you said "Imperial" or whatever, there'll be far fewer of these tiresome exchanges.
I get it, you're really into X Wing, just remember that some of us just like to play a few games and sometimes come online and chat about it, for people like me, it isn't important that every tiny thing is precisely mathematically correct, pedantry isn't always appropriate for the masses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One data point still doesn't prove anything though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/13 23:00:18
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Pro tip, none of this matters, it's just fun. I wouldn't argue half as hard if you weren't so obviously desperate to be king of Dakka X Wing.
For future reference, I sometimes use my own words rather than quote someone verbatim, if you try and grasp the general point rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae of me saying "dark side" when you said "Imperial" or whatever, there'll be far fewer of these tiresome exchanges.
I get it, you're really into X Wing, just remember that some of us just like to play a few games and sometimes come online and chat about it, for people like me, it isn't important that every tiny thing is precisely mathematically correct, pedantry isn't always appropriate for the masses.
Seriously, this started by me saying that people using it have shown that APLcan be decent investment.
You took that as some sort of attack and got super defensive, started making up arguments (claiming I think it's the greatest thing ever and that I think you think it's worthless? None of those things were said, by the way), putting words in my mouth (or from my fingers as it were), moving goalposts, and then dragging another old thread into it. Now you're going to act like I'm the bad guy?
I don't care if you disagree with me, but your combative and snarky attitude is completely unjustifiable. I'm not trying to be the Dakka X-wing King. If none of it matters, why did you instantly go on the attack when presented with a difference of opinion?
By the way, saying "Pro Tip" makes you sound like a douchebag. You shouldn't do it.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
If you are calling me super defensive for questioning that one instance proves (your word, I checked) that APL isn't what I said, ie a situational upgrade that requires two separate instances I can't influence to converge to perform, then you need to re-examine your head voice for me. Questioning your statement doesn't make me defensive, it's just part of discussion.
If someone won a tournament with Marksmanship equipped on a Starviper, that doesn't necessarily make either choice more viable does it? It just means the gap between "top tier" and "poor" is really small, and a lot of the game is decided on the table.
I think you're a little sensitive and are interpreting disagreement for attacks and arguing your point for defensive.
Just debating a point is really difficult because you make everything personal, whether it's intended or no.
Just the fact you're calling me names, although I'm sure you're trying not to be obvious about it in case Mods are lurking, shows you can't seem to separate me disagreeing with your point and attacking you. If you can find any point where I've actually attacked you, it's likely a misinterpretation and I'll gladly try and rephrase what I meant.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: If you are calling me super defensive for questioning that one instance proves (your word, I checked) that APL isn't what I said, ie a situational upgrade that requires two separate instances I can't influence to converge to perform, then you need to re-examine your head voice for me. Questioning your statement doesn't make me defensive, it's just part of discussion.
Sure dude, I guess your version of how it happened is best for you. Blocking is a viable strategy in this game and having a ship that can potentially dish out damage when it happens is a threat. That two points doesn't always need to convert to damage to make it worthwhile. Like myself and Peregrine explained, putting it on a ship with a donut hole makes people second guess their maneuvers. Denying your opponent their best option can be just as crippling as getting one damage on them (probably even more so).
If someone won a tournament with Marksmanship equipped on a Starviper, that doesn't necessarily make either choice more viable does it? It just means the gap between "top tier" and "poor" is really small, and a lot of the game is decided on the table.
Now you're back to making up arguments from nothing.
I think you're a little sensitive and are interpreting disagreement for attacks and arguing your point for defensive.
But you haven't argued my point, you made up imaginary arguments and tried to pick apart what I said.
Just debating a point is really difficult because you make everything personal, whether it's intended or no.
You're not debating because you really don't have a point other than "you're wrong."
Just the fact you're calling me names, although I'm sure you're trying not to be obvious about it in case Mods are lurking, shows you can't seem to separate me disagreeing with your point and attacking you. If you can find any point where I've actually attacked you, it's likely a misinterpretation and I'll gladly try and rephrase what I meant.
I'm just addressing your poor choiceof words. I'm not going to insult you because it's a useless gesture (and against the rules).
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
Azreal13 wrote: If you are calling me super defensive for questioning that one instance proves (your word, I checked) that APL isn't what I said, ie a situational upgrade that requires two separate instances I can't influence to converge to perform, then you need to re-examine your head voice for me. Questioning your statement doesn't make me defensive, it's just part of discussion.
Sure dude, I guess your version of how it happened is best for you. Blocking is a viable strategy in this game and having a ship that can potentially dish out damage when it happens is a threat. That two points doesn't always need to convert to damage to make it worthwhile. Like myself and Peregrine explained, putting it on a ship with a donut hole makes people second guess their maneuvers. Denying your opponent their best option can be just as crippling as getting one damage on them (probably even more so).
If someone won a tournament with Marksmanship equipped on a Starviper, that doesn't necessarily make either choice more viable does it? It just means the gap between "top tier" and "poor" is really small, and a lot of the game is decided on the table.
Now you're back to making up arguments from nothing.
It's an analogy, not an argument. I thought the question "does Marksmanship (probably one of the worst EPTs in the game) on a Starviper (considered, at best, one of the hardest ships to make work) winning a tournament mean everything that currently stands in terms of those things goes out the window?" Was fairly analogous to "APLs were on a ship in a list that won a tournament." One swallow does not make a summer, one data point does not prove anything. I'd be unlikely to revise my opinion of either option on one result, I don't see why you feel that it should.
I think you're a little sensitive and are interpreting disagreement for attacks and arguing your point for defensive.
But you haven't argued my point, you made up imaginary arguments and tried to pick apart what I said.
See, what's imaginary about "one data point proves nothing?"
Just debating a point is really difficult because you make everything personal, whether it's intended or no.
You're not debating because you really don't have a point other than "you're wrong."
Because one data point proves nothing. You are wrong in that you're trying to prove a trend with one example. Sure APLs CAN work, they're not mechanically broken, but let's not forget that the original conversation was about the a Shuttle, not the Outrider.
Just the fact you're calling me names, although I'm sure you're trying not to be obvious about it in case Mods are lurking, shows you can't seem to separate me disagreeing with your point and attacking you. If you can find any point where I've actually attacked you, it's likely a misinterpretation and I'll gladly try and rephrase what I meant.
I'm just addressing your poor choiceof words. I'm not going to insult you because it's a useless gesture (and against the rules).
So, no examples where I've attacked you? Cool.
I'd look a little further afield in your posts for insults if I were you.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
: 4500pts
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2,000 points 
265 point detachment
Iron Hands: 1,850 