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Just as the title states, it was brought to my attention that in 7th edition, there seems to be no option of infiltrating= If a unit has at least one model with the infiltrate USR, they MUST deploy using the infiltrate rules, or be held in reserves.

Furthermore, is the OUTFLANK USR optional? Since all units with infiltrate gain Outflank, if it is mandatory they would be required to arrive from either the left or right table edge from reserves.



Rules as Written-

Infiltrate- "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have Infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, then alternate deploying these units." Then it goes on to talk about the restrictions on deployment of these models.

Outflank- ""When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserve"


From what I can find in the BRB, it looks like both are REQUIRED to be used, as neither contain any verbage about "may" or "choose" to use these rules.



The reason I'm asking this is in regards to a hypothetical abuse of items such as Servo-skulls which disallow infiltration in areas of the table.

Let me throw out an ideal scenario- Assume a 4x6 table, No Terrain, DZ's are long edges 12".

Lets say "Player A" has 72 servo skulls set in a line at .1 inch outside of his opponents DZ, and Player A deploys first, lining the entire front of his own DZ with guardsmen--- giving the opponent nowhere on the table where he will legally be able to deploy infiltrators. Player B's army consists of ONLY a single marine scout squad. Knowing this;

1) Is "Player B" allowed to set up his unit of Space Marine Scout snipers during his normal deployment within his 12" DZ, or will they be forced to be held in reserve?
2) If they are forced to be held in reserve, will they be REQUIRED to outflank? (is there an option to come in from their controlling board edge?)

.... If they are not allowed to deploy, Player A will win at the end of the first turn, due to the opponent having no models on the table.

Infiltrators will always set up last, however that doesn't mean that you can't set them up in your own deployment zone.

^How, given the above restrictions?

Nowhere in the rules for infiltrate does it mention being able to place them in your DZ ignoring things like opponents units or servo skulls...

Infiltrate rule does not preclude Infiltrators deploying in their own DZ; only that they are outside 12" and LOS of enemy units, or outside 18" in LOS of enemy units.

Well, as there is always a 24 inch gap between deployment zones, even with a bunch of skulls it's very unlikely that you will be unable to place a small unit of scouts.

Swamp mist, the rules for the skulls is that they can deploy anywhere outside of the opponents deployment zone with no restriction based on enemy models...

The real question here is can you choose to not infiltrate models that have the infiltrate rules... because as the rules are written it really does not seem that you can....

 Carlson793 wrote:
Infiltrate rule does not preclude Infiltrators deploying in their own DZ; only that they are outside 12" and LOS of enemy units, or outside 18" in LOS of enemy units.

Swampmist wrote:
Well, as there is always a 24 inch gap between deployment zones, even with a bunch of skulls it's very unlikely that you will be unable to place a small unit of scouts.

I understand that fully, and its not the question... both of these are covered by the above restrictions...

The question revolves around the example, which clearly stated that there will not be anywhere on the table that is LEGAL for infiltrators to deploy, because of Skulls at the 12.01" mark, and guardsmen across the opponents DZ... thus giving NO LEGAL deployment for infiltrators...

In case anyone doesn't know what skulls do, here is the portion of their rules that is pertinent to this question;

"Servo-skulls are treated as counters, rather than units, for all intents and purposes. They
are placed on the battlefield after deployment areas have been determined, but before any
forces are deployed. Each Servo-skull can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside
the enemy’s deployment zone. Once deployed, Servo-skulls do not move.
Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a Servo-skull."

That example says nothing about infiltrators not being able to deploy at all.

The idea that infiltrator can not deploy with out infiltrating is what makes the example possible...

Obviously the infiltrating player would not choose to infiltrate seeing the skulls on the board...

So thus, the question is....

Can units with the infiltrate special rule some how deploy during regular deployment even though the infiltrate rule no longer includes the word "may or can"

deploying last for an infiltrate unit is not optional. If they deploy on the table at all, they get set down last and can't charge turn 1, regardless of placement. You also won't be able to have a non-infiltrate indie character with them until your first movement phase.

You can, however, outflank instead, which gets around the above servo skull situation. (Rules mention that infiltrators also gain outflank, so there's no such thing as an infiltrator without outflank.)

I want to say that the term "deploy" allows you to put them in "normal" reserves during the infiltrate deployment step, but without a book next to me I wouldn't be able to back that up with raw fact.

" Each Servo-skull can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside The enemy’s deployment zone."

So, what you're saying is, you set up the skull so they their bubbles cover the ENTIRE enemy deployment zone? I mean, I suppose it's possible, I just highly doubt it seeing as the skulls don't have LoS and so you can be 12.1 inches away from them.

 CrownAxe wrote:
That example says nothing about infiltrators not being able to deploy at all.

It restricts the infiltrators to having NO LEGAL DEPLOYMENT on the table, based on the rules for infiltrating. That is the whole point of the discussion. Given the above scenario, you can assume that there is NO ROOM for the infiltrating unit to deploy legally.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
deploying last for an infiltrate unit is not optional. If they deploy on the table at all, they get set down last and can't charge turn 1, regardless of placement. You also won't be able to have a non-infiltrate indie character with them until your first movement phase.

You can, however, outflank instead, which gets around the above servo skull situation. (Rules mention that infiltrators also gain outflank, so there's no such thing as an infiltrator without outflank.)

I want to say that the term "deploy" allows you to put them in "normal" reserves during the infiltrate deployment step, but without a book next to me I wouldn't be able to back that up with raw fact.

Based on the wording as I'm seeing it in the BRB, when a unit with outflank is put into reserves, it automatically must come in via rolling a die and coming in on the given side.

 Btothefnrock wrote:
I understand that fully, and its not the question... both of these are covered by the above restrictions...

The question revolves around the example, which clearly stated that there will not be anywhere on the table that is LEGAL for infiltrators to deploy, because of Skulls at the 12.01" mark, and guardsmen across the opponents DZ... thus giving NO LEGAL deployment for infiltrators...

In case anyone doesn't know what skulls do, here is the portion of their rules that is pertinent to this question;

"Servo-skulls are treated as counters, rather than units, for all intents and purposes. They
are placed on the battlefield after deployment areas have been determined, but before any
forces are deployed. Each Servo-skull can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside
the enemy’s deployment zone. Once deployed, Servo-skulls do not move.
Enemy infiltrators cannot set up within 12" of a Servo-skull."

It's a 12" circle, you'd need a lot of servo-skulls to prevent deploying in their own DZ in Dawn of War across a 6' line. In Hammer and Anvil, it's not really a concern because of the DZ depth. Vangaurd is so screwy, that you need more than Dawn of War, and there is still that one pesky corner you cannot reach.

Add all that with the simple fact that few armies can cover their OWN DZ enough to prevent Infiltrators, and fewer will, as well as the fact that Outflank is an option, makes this less effective. But that's all tactics.

But back to the rules, if not in Reserves, units with Infiltrate do have to wait and cannot be deployed without Infiltrating. They are not allowed to override this without going in to Reserves.

Swamp with a 12 inch deployment zone the models could not be placed 12.1 inches away from them, and even if you could get one in the corner you would not be able to deploy the entire unit.

Swampmist wrote:
" Each Servo-skull can be placed anywhere on the battlefield outside The enemy’s deployment zone."

So, what you're saying is, you set up the skull so they their bubbles cover the ENTIRE enemy deployment zone? I mean, I suppose it's possible, I just highly doubt it seeing as the skulls don't have LoS and so you can be 12.1 inches away from them.

Skulls can be placed ANYWHERE outside of the opponents DZ. therefore, .000000001 inches is outside of it.

 Btothefnrock wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
That example says nothing about infiltrators not being able to deploy at all.

It restricts the infiltrators to having NO LEGAL DEPLOYMENT on the table, based on the rules for infiltrating. That is the whole point of the discussion. Given the above scenario, you can assume that there is NO ROOM for the infiltrating unit to deploy legally.

Infiltrators can infiltrate into their own deployment zone

Servo skull can't cover the entire deployment zone

I don't see where you are getting the "no room for infiltrating" idea from

^Pretending that the unit of infiltrators has 10 models, and the overlap of the skulls prevents them from fitting in one of the small null areas.... Then what?

yes. They still only have a 12 inch range, which means there is likely atleast 1 inch within the deployment zone where-in you can place the models, especially because (depending on which deployment zone you use) your deployment zone my be LARGER than 12 inches, often being 24. That, and 6 12 inch bubbles, because of how diagonals work, does not cover the entire deployment zone even when placed right on the line.

EDIT: Ninja'd. But, why would we assume that if it's impossible? I mean, yes then they can't deploy. but in most cases, if you buy enough guardsmen to cover your entire deployment zone, assuming you're playing with the shorter, wider deployment zones (because otherwise you can't cover the entire enemy deployment under any circumstances on a 4X6 table,) along with 6 servo skulls, you're likely not keeping those units alive either way.

 Btothefnrock wrote:
^Pretending that the unit of infiltrators has 10 models, and the overlap of the skulls prevents them from fitting in one of the small null areas.... Then what?

First of all its literally impossible for servo skull to do what you are imagining on Vanguard Strike deployment or Hammer and Anvil deployment as the deployment zones are longer then 12"

On Dawn of War you need like 9+ servo skulls to deny sufficient area to cause a problem for infiltrators. If that's the case then just out flank them.

I see what you are saying swamp... it is late and school work has the bring working slow...

I think the hypothetical question is if you somehow do control their entire deployment zone (i.e. like 9 skulls) which would shrink the bubble for each unit to deploy to just an inch or two, thus making so infiltrators can not deploy....

Would they in turn be forced to outflank....

Yes, as has been stated, they do have to outflank. Doesnt change much though.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Btothefnrock wrote:
^Pretending that the unit of infiltrators has 10 models, and the overlap of the skulls prevents them from fitting in one of the small null areas.... Then what?

First of all its literally impossible for servo skull to do what you are imagining on Vanguard Strike deployment or Hammer and Anvil deployment as the deployment zones are longer then 12"

On Dawn of War you need like 9+ servo skulls to deny sufficient area to cause a problem for infiltrators. If that's the case then just out flank them.

Ok, lets pretend I'm unbound and have 100 skulls just for arguments sake to cover their dz. It's moot point, not what I was intending.



The intent of this question was to know if you are allowed to deploy normally (which consensus seems to be no, you can not, you must infiltrate)

and if you can't infiltrate are you required to outflank (which again, seems to be agreed that you must)

Agreed

You MUST infiltrate OR outflank; ther eis no longer the "you can set up normally in your deployment zone" clause, and there is no optionality inherent in the infiltrate USR

If you have no legal space to deploy fulfilling the rules for infiltrate, then you must outflank

Who knows, possibly intended?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Agreed

You MUST infiltrate OR outflank; ther eis no longer the "you can set up normally in your deployment zone" clause, and there is no optionality inherent in the infiltrate USR

If you have no legal space to deploy fulfilling the rules for infiltrate, then you must outflank

Who knows, possibly intended?

I agree. One exception is Deep Strike - if the unit can do that, there's no need to outflank.

True, like most things in 40k, there is an exception

Infiltration is spot on, outflank I think is optional during set up, but not at the time you come on from reserve.

I don't see how having the outflank USR forces you to outflank. It says

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, ..."

not

"When a unit with outflank arrives from reserve ..."

Thus if you have not chosen to outflank, and are therefore not "an outflanking unit" then you come on from your own board edge.

Drager wrote:
Infiltration is spot on, outflank I think is optional during set up, but not at the time you come on from reserve.

I don't see how having the outflank USR forces you to outflank. It says

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, ..."

not

"When a unit with outflank arrives from reserve ..."

Thus if you have not chosen to outflank, and are therefore not "an outflanking unit" then you come on from your own board edge.

That's not what the rulebook says. What it says is "... When this unit arrives from Reserve..."

RWSF can outflank but their rules tell you you must deploy the entire formation if they don't outflank. Neither states the unit must do so.

 Ghaz wrote:

Drager wrote:
Infiltration is spot on, outflank I think is optional during set up, but not at the time you come on from reserve.

I don't see how having the outflank USR forces you to outflank. It says

"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, ..."

not

"When a unit with outflank arrives from reserve ..."

Thus if you have not chosen to outflank, and are therefore not "an outflanking unit" then you come on from your own board edge.

That's not what the rulebook says. What it says is "... When this unit arrives from Reserve..."

Read the paragraph before that one.

Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves.

Outflank

During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve...

Yes? The particular sentence he was referring to does not say what he said it does. I didn't say or imply that the rule in question allows him not to Outflank.