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I've been out of the game for a good few years now, since back when I was playing before we were still firmly in 5th edition and some codexes were still in 4th. I initially left the game because I was young, dumb, and didn't understand any facet of optimization, so I would often go weeks and literally dozens of matches without winning a single game. It sounds unrealistic I know, but I was doing pretty much every classic mistake in the book: "hm the sprue comes with a grenade launcher and a flamer for this infantry squad, I guess I should put those in!" "Psh, why would I get a stupid Chimera for my veteran squad when I COULD get a dozer blade and extra armor for my Leman Russ?" You get the picture. Anyway, I've recently gotten heavy into Dungeons and Dragons which taught me the tenets of optimization and how not to suck at tabletop games. That considered, and the fact that painting the models was always lots of fun, I've made the (costly) decision to dive back in. Given that I actually have an unopened Chimera and Infantry squad from the old days lying around, I've decided to do Mech Guard (plus it was something I always wanted to do). After some extensive research and revisions, I've come up with this list:

HQ:
Leman Russ Squadron 550

Leman Russ Punisher
- Knight Commander Pask
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Leman Russ Exterminator
- Lascannon Hullmount
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Leman Russ Exterminator
- Lascannon Hullmount
- Heavy Bolter Sponsons

TROOPS:

Veteran Squad 135
- Autocannon
- Chimera Dedicated Transport (Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 135
- Autocannon
- Chimera Dedicated Transport (Heavy Bolter)

Troop Total: 270

FAST ATTACK:

Devil Dog 145
- Multi-melta Hullmount

TOTAL: 965

That leaves me with 35 points to play with. That's not enough to do anything too major, so I was considering something like carapace armor for the Vets, but I don't know how much that'll actually help. If MEQ is still the flavor of the month, I'd probably take it so I don't get AP'd by boltguns, but if something else is the common enemy or the climate is - Emperor forbid - actually balanced in terms of armies, then something else is probably more worth it (I'm just not sure what, I'd take an Enginseer if I had 5 extra points). Main point that I'm unsure of is the Devil Dog. Are they good? Are they bad? I feel like I never see lists with it but it seems like a good way to ensure that any heavy armor or big nasty I go against goes down in short order so long as my unit gets close enough.

Hey welcome back. First of all, 1000 pts is a pretty nice to start playing at so you have a decent time reorienting yourself.

So to start with pask and his squad. There's a lot of variation in what people take and what you have isn't too bad. The "go to" build for him would be the pask punisher, with lascannon and MM sponsons. Take one squadmate executioner with plasma cannon sponsons. Preferred enemy from pask allows rerolls for the executioner to avoid gets hot!

If these are the models you're working with however, I would at least split one tank off on its own. The more tanks in Pask's squad the more risks your taking since the enemy can just focus all his AT into that one squad. An exterminator is not too bad on it's own.

I think the rest of your list needs more AT, and I hate to see vets' BS4 not being used. Drop autocannons and get some meltas on them. Also maybe experiment with demo charges, they can be quite brutal depending on how nasty your meta is now.

I haven't used the devil dog but I would test it out. Melta cannons seem interesting but the armor isn't that great for the points. Also check out wyverns for any list. They are amazing.

Oh my Emperor you're telling me Preferred Enemy let's me reroll Get's Hot? I figured since the plasma cannon just rolled scatter and made the Gets Hot roll separately, that it didn't count.

Knowing that, I'm certainly going to take an executioner. That's amazing.

If I'm going to take something like MM sponsons on the punisher, then I'd just drop the Devil Dog entirely. Those points could buy an entire LRBT on their own more or less, or another kitted Vet squad. I was taking autocannons on the vets because I was planning on them holding objectives, but I guess with the new detachment rules I can hold objectives with tanks, right? Now I just need to find somewhere to actually get like 6 meltaguns. I'll post an updated list when I get home later, but keep in mind this isn't what I have to work with: Right now all I have is a Chimera and a spattering of Guardsmen. The tanks and whatnot are completely exchangeable because I still have to actually buy them.

removed

I asked at my store and found out that Pask DOESN'T actually let you reroll Gets Hot since it's not technically an attack roll. Also, I don't take Pask for the rerolls, that would just be completely silly and more or less a waste of 40 points. I take pask because if you slap him into a Punisher, you get an average of 13-14 hits per turn of S5 rending attacks. That'll cut down even heavy infantry since generally 2-3 of them will take an AP2 wound automatically and the rest will get wounded on a 2 or a 3+, depending on what the army is. PLUS on top of that his squad gets to reroll to hit rolls.

Upon thinking on it I have indeed decided that dropping the Devil Dog is in my better interests. The list looks something like this now:

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Punisher w/ KC Pask, Heavy Bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Exterminator, Lascannon Hullmount, Heavy Bolter sponsons

2x Veteran Squad
Chimera Dedicated Transport (Heavy Bolter)
3x Meltagun

Leman Russ Exterminator
Lascannon Hullmount
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Basilisk
Enclosed Crew Compartment

TOTAL: 1000

Thoughts? Also, quick question that I've been unsure of for about forever now. Do I have to take the chainsword/pistol on my sergeants, or can I just give them a lasgun like everyone else? I can't imagine a single scenario I'd actually charge my vets with this list, and if they get into a fight with anything that would charge them they're done for, so I'd rather take the extra attack.

No lasgun for the Sergeants, unfortunately. For 1pt you can give then a bolter, though. Probably not worth it while you're in Chimeras though, not enough fire ports to go around.

I don't think the Enclosed Compartment is really worth its cost, but take that with a grain of salt from a DE player who's used to everything being open-topped.

Other than that, looks solid. Have you considered hullmount Heavy Flamers on your Chimeras and Basilisk? Since the Chimeras would be moving up and just snap-firing their HB, it might be better to have the HF so they can do damage with that while your Veterans fire off their meltas. The Basilisk is firing Ordnance anyway, and you might be able to use its HF with some effectiveness against whatever unit tries to charge it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No lasgun for the Sergeants, unfortunately. For 1pt you can give then a bolter, though. Probably not worth it while you're in Chimeras though, not enough fire ports to go around.

I don't think the Enclosed Compartment is really worth its cost, but take that with a grain of salt from a DE player who's used to everything being open-topped.

Other than that, looks solid. Have you considered hullmount Heavy Flamers on your Chimeras and Basilisk? Since the Chimeras would be moving up and just snap-firing their HB, it might be better to have the HF so they can do damage with that while your Veterans fire off their meltas. The Basilisk is firing Ordnance anyway, and you might be able to use its HF with some effectiveness against whatever unit tries to charge it.

Chimeras, as far as I know, can only fire snap shots if they move cruising speed (which they would do every round they don't aim to hit a vehicle). Template weapons can't be fired as snap shots, so a flamer would be more or less unused. With the Basilisk, I'd imagine that it would die more to AT than just things charging it, considering I'd slap it about as far away from the action as possible and leave something (probably the non-squad'd Exterminator) to guard it. Plus, I heard somewhere that the way Earthshaker Cannon works is that the listed range is only for indirect fire, but direct fire can be done within that range. I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement, but it would make the Earthshaker cannon more than enough to dissuade cheeky charges.

Yes Basilisk can fire point blank in direct fire mode.

Think about swapping out the Chimeras with Autocannons, drops 5 points of the basic cost(fw rules) and gives you a bit more range and strength, and if you've got a heavy bolter anyway you can choose which to use.

 Lordraymond wrote:
I asked at my store and found out that Pask DOESN'T actually let you reroll Gets Hot since it's not technically an attack roll. Also, I don't take Pask for the rerolls, that would just be completely silly and more or less a waste of 40 points. I take pask because if you slap him into a Punisher, you get an average of 13-14 hits per turn of S5 rending attacks. That'll cut down even heavy infantry since generally 2-3 of them will take an AP2 wound automatically and the rest will get wounded on a 2 or a 3+, depending on what the army is. PLUS on top of that his squad gets to reroll to hit rolls.

Upon thinking on it I have indeed decided that dropping the Devil Dog is in my better interests. The list looks something like this now:

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Punisher w/ KC Pask, Heavy Bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Exterminator, Lascannon Hullmount, Heavy Bolter sponsons

2x Veteran Squad
Chimera Dedicated Transport (Heavy Bolter)
3x Meltagun

Leman Russ Exterminator
Lascannon Hullmount
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Basilisk
Enclosed Crew Compartment

TOTAL: 1000

Thoughts? Also, quick question that I've been unsure of for about forever now. Do I have to take the chainsword/pistol on my sergeants, or can I just give them a lasgun like everyone else? I can't imagine a single scenario I'd actually charge my vets with this list, and if they get into a fight with anything that would charge them they're done for, so I'd rather take the extra attack.

Pask doesn't let you reroll gets hot? Do you have the rule book? If so go to the index and look up gets hot. Then read the ENTIRE entry. Every word. Because I've always though pask allowed the rerolls to gets hot and that's how I've seen it in probably 100 some battle report videos. Also you take an executioner as pasks wing man because s7 ap2 will wound a lot. With preferred enemy you pretty much will slaughter infantry like crazy.

Gets Hot rule snip:
"Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing."

Preferred Enemy rule snip:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

If I have learned anything from my time of playing dnd, it's that phrasing matters immensely when it comes to technical terms like this, and while perhaps it may be RAI that Preferred Enemy allows you to reroll Gets Hot, RAW is more or less inarguably against it. Since Preferred Enemy specifically calls out "To Hit" rolls by name, and the plasma cannon specifically falls under the list of "weapons that do not roll To Hit" for the purpose of Gets Hot, the plasma cannons cannot reroll Gets Hot rolls of a 1 because they are not techincally "To Hit" rolls (those are the scatter dice instead). Plasma RIFLES you can reroll with preferred enemy, because they are Rapid Fire as opposed to Blast.

Like I said, believe me I'd love to slap a million Plasma Cannons on the list if I could, but it seems too risky without being able to reroll Gets Hot.

Well seeing as your having troubles looking this up yourself. I've learned sometimes you have to just do it yourself. So I don't mean to sounds rude but I shall guide you.

Page 164. Gets hot 4th paragraph gets hot a rerolls. If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit(including because of BS6+ or the twin-linked special rule), a wound is only suffered if the to hit reroll is also a 1; it may also re-roll gets it results of 1for weapons that do not roll to hit.

So your executioner has preferred enemy. He RE-ROLLS to hit rolls of 1.

Gets hot BEGINNING SENTENCE. If a model has the ability to RE-ROLL ITS ROLLS TO HIT (including because of bs6+ or twinlinked)

That says INCLUDING, not ONLY because of bs6+ and twinlinked.

Is this registering...does it make sense??? Maybe show this post to whoever said you can't reroll it so I they can actually look up the rules themselves.

Okay fam, calm down holy gak. No need to be that cheeky in your post. I literally just didn't see the final section. You're acting like I single-handedly tried to undermine the entire rulebook or something.

I mean when I go back in I can talk to him about it. When I asked it was literally just me saying "hey, can you reroll gets hot on blast templates with preferred enemies" and he was like "nah, I wish you could though."

Like I said I don't mean to sound rude and sorry if I did but I wouldn't want you to be shorting yourself for so long. I had a buddy in prior editions who thought if you charged into terrain you didn't get a bonus attack and struck at initiative 1. But the rules were that you just strike at initiative 1. U only didn't get ur bonus attacks if you charged a unit with defensive grenades or multi assaulted. I never knew my buddies stat lines for his units and he never said he wasn't getting his bonus attack so for over a year he would have units of 20-30 tyranids models charge my guard and he would be shorting himself those bonus attacks. That many bonus attacks could have changed probably hundreds of games we played. And shorting yourself easily the best tank commander combo the codex can grant you would be poor. I mean no other partner to pask is better than that executioner. You will slay all types of infantry as you reroll gets hot so you shouldn't over heat and you reroll to wounds. You can almost all monstrous creatures and even threaten guargatuan creatures and even damage light armor.
Just make sure when you read rules you read the whole thing as GW is good at slipping in that final sentence that will change it all. And sorry again if I came off rude but it happens so much where I will tell someone to make sure they read the whole rule and they will still come back debating with the first thing they find.

So in all honesty pask in punisher with hull lascannon and sponson multi melta with an executioner with plasma sponsons is your go to tank commander. Wyverns are your next go to. That tank commander unit and wyverns are the best we got right now. I would advise a lascannon blob and a ccs to order them ignores cover as a lot of the top armies will have some crazy cover save units.

in my Astra Militarum book, under the listing for Gets hot:

"When firing a weapon that Gets Hot, roll To Hit as normal. For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) - a vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of 1,2 or 3.

Gets Hot and Weapons That Do Not Roll To Hit: Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a d6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; the firing model suffers a Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) and the shot is not fired. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1,2 or 3 each time the weapon Gets Hot.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls: If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+ or Twin-Linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit"

That pretty clearly allows the rerolls of 1 to me, Pasks preferred enemy allows rerolls of 1's just because its a scatter weapon this clearly states it is still allowed to use the reroll to avoid Gets Hot


just wanted to chime in with the rules, i run pask with executioner, both decked out with plasma's cause why the hell not, in order for pasks unit to get hot, they have to roll 1, then 1 again, then a 1,2 or 3 on a third roll

The problem with that is, as I'm reading the Gets Hot rule, when rolling for blast markers, you aren't rolling to "hit" you are rolling to see if the shot gets off in the first place.

In the Blast rules section, it states that if a model has the ability to re-roll it's To Hit roll after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both scatter and 2d6.


Looking in the YMDC section, it seems the argument goes either way... so best guess is to just check with your opponent.

I fully copied out the section on gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit to answer ensis's response

it specifically lists blast weapons as the example and how to handle them with the reroll

and while not specifically mentioning preferred enemy it does mention bs 6+ which handles the roll similarly (not a full re-roll as per twin-linked, but rerolls 1's only as per preferred enemy)