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Hi to all and thanks for reading this. I tell you right now I'm trying to make this as shorter as possible, I know how annoying it can be to read homemade rules. I just need some advice on internal balance and pricing.

The context; I want to give some flavour for my Russian-modern-themed IG since my LGS let us play our own custom armies (with a strict control on power however, we play in 650pts). Classically, my guys are mechanized regiments with great expertise in shock tactics and merciless repression. You can learn more on them here :

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646687.page

Here are the main things I wanted to discuss:

General rules of the army

Iron Discipline : same as DKoK morale checks. They do not test when loosing 25% or more of their numbers during move and shooting phase. Can also use a 12'' Ld bubble from their officers for tests.

Mechanized Assault: RSD Chimera can disembark even after having moved 12''.

Big Game hunters : a Character with this special rule can issue Bring It Down order to its own squad. Same Ld mechanism as regular orders. A unit which receive such "internal" order cannot received any other order on this turn.

Savages: A unit with this special rule must pass a Ld check when it is too far from a RSD officer (out of a 12'' bubble or no Officer/Commissar/Priest/other in the unit. Milician Squad Sarge not counting for this rule). If failed, throw a D6: on 1/2, the unit must shoot and charge the closest enemy model it sees, on 2/3, they must go to ground and can't do anything more on this turn, 5/6, they retreat to the closest edge of the table (2D6+2'' distance).

Special Weapons and Wargear

RPG launcher (special weapon, 10pts/fig):
- AT rocket. R24'' S6 AP3 Assault1, Hollow Warhead (Counts as AP2 when Armour Penetration roll gives 6), Man Portable (a model with a RPG must carry a Krinkov Lascarbine and can't have another special weapon. It must choose which weapon it uses)
- AP rocket. R24" S3 AP6 Assault 1, Shred
Models in the same unit must choose the same rocket when firing.

Krinkov Lascarbine : R18" S3 AP- Rapid Fire

Coaxial Bolter (Vehicule Equipment, +5pts) : R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire, Coaxial (if the bolter hits an enemy model, the main turret-mounted weapon of the vehicule is Twin-linked (or can reroll one to Wound dice if already Twin-Linked))

Ballistic Visor (+1pt/fig): 6++ against Blast and Template weapons. Invulnerable against Blind Weapons.

RSD Radio-vox : unlimited range for orders issued by radio-vox. The ordered unit must have a radiovox.

RSD Core Units

HQ

CCS (65pts)
- Same special rules as CCS + Iron discipline.
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

TROOPS

All units may be taken in Platoon.

Veteran Squad (65pts)
- Same special Rules as Vets + Iron Discipline
- Same statline and same options as regular Codex
- Same equipment as regular codex
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

Assault Veteran Squad (85pts)
- Same special Rules as Vets + Iron Discipline, Big Game Hunters (Sarge)
- Same statline + up to 5 Vets may take a Special Weapons
- Equipment : Krinkov Lascarbine, Carapace Armour, Ballistic Visor, CCW, Fusion bomb (Sarge), Krak & Frag.
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

Militsiya Squad(40pts)
- Same Special Rules as regular Guardsmen + Savages
- Same statline + Sarge has 2A.
- Same equipment as regular codex. May add up to 10 Militsiyamen (4pts/fig)
- May take a Chimera

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chimera IFV "Rhayé pattern" (65pts)
- Same Special Rules + Mechanized Assault
- May replace its Multilaser by an Autocannon (+10pts)

If you had the bravery to read the whole list, here are my main preoccupations, which I'd really like to discuss with you or hear your thoughts about.
- I'm afraid I'm falling in the "too much elite kills the elite". Too few bodies could be a problem since my guys may have a though morale, they are still T3 5+ for the most of them. They can have good firepower but resilience is just... meh.
- The Assault Squad is my favourite, I really want to do something good with them. Do you think they are underpriced for what they bring to the table? I played them with 3 RPG last time, it was pretty nasty for my SW opponent (they killed a whole Longfang squad, damaged a Dread and murdered its regular Marine CC squad which I don't remember the name). Plus I don't want them to make the normal Vet squad useless...
- What about the Militsya? Quite cheap huh? Can this be justified by their rule "Savage"?

Thanks in advance for feedback !

Hmmm..

I'll run through the units in order...

CCS - Death Korps don't get a leadership bubble as well. Ignoring casualties from shooting is pretty powerful. I'd suggest you should be paying more than 15 points for this rule unless you're giving up the ability to issue orders too. Otherwise probably more like 70-75 points.

On a related note, how much are you planning to charge for the Vox? I would say 5pts is fine for unlimited range orders if it gives up the normal Vox effect (you haven't listed that).



Veteran Squad (65pts) - well, it's a veteran squad. Iron discipline for 5 points.... eh, it's a single guard squad. Fair enough.


Assault Veteran Squad (85pts) - Umm. No.
20 points would buy you a veteran squad (above) with the grenadiers doctrine. Since they already have that, everything you're getting on top of that is free. Big Game Hunters is REALLY powerful on a unit with 5 special weapon slots, and since you're almost certainly putting them in a Valkyrie or Rhayé Chimera, the lascarbine's shorter range is no disadvantage at all. Plus Krak Grenades are not free, nor is the Melta Bomb - that's another 15 points of wargear right there.

The ballistic visor isn't that powerful - immunity to blind (you mean 'immune to the blind rule, I hope!) is good but not earthshaking, and a 6++ isn't that scary - but it doesn't really make sense. If it's blast/shrapnel protection, it should help when hit by a frag grenade, not when hit by a titan-calibre plasma cannon. Compare with Hardened Armour in Horus Heresy, which gives you reroll saves when hit by blast and template weapons, but doesn't help when hit by AP2 or AP3 weapons.


Militsiya Squad - Fair enough. Personally I wouldn't stop at 10 extra guys - no-one would object to making that up to 20. I think regular guard sergeants have 2 attacks, by the way.

Savages is fair enough. With a Ld8 sergeant integral to the unit its less punishing than Tyranid Synapse, but then at 4 points per model you're not really claiming much bonus for it. I might suggest dropping the guardsmen to carry lascarbines too.

Also - if take a double-sized unit, do you intend for me to take double assault/heavy weapons?



One comment - platoons. No. There is a reason that veteran squads are not allowed as an option for platoons - it makes the regular guard squad more important because of how quickly you run out of slots, and to prevent the combination of many command squads issuing orders and veteran squads (with many special weapons) to receive them. Big Game Hunters is already pushing the limit on that one but at least you (should be) paying for it.

Wargear:
Coaxial Bolter - well, you're paying for it - a lot of forgeworld tanks can have co-ax stormbolters for the same points. I'd just leave it at twin-linked rather than make the rule more complicated. Nothing makes you buy it for a tank with a main armament that's already twin-linked...


RPG launcher -I'm in two minds about this, but want to lean on the side of no. It's not that powerful - S6 AP3 is good but not gamebreaking. It's more powerful than a grenade launcher but less than a plasma gun, and falls between the two in price. However, the option of the shred AP warhead too makes it rather too good for 10 points, especially since you've made it an assault special weapon; you have to allow for the assumption that half the models in a veteran assault team will be armed with these things.

I'd be a lot happier at 15 points.

Also, I'd probably scrub the Hollow Warhead rule. This only applies if you get a penetrating hit, and - frankly - at S6 you're primarily going to kill tanks with many glancing hits. If you want to give it more potential, then if you up the points you could always give it Rending - always go for a universal rule before making one up yourself; it makes it easier to judge balance as you can reach for a 'close comparison' weapon.

It looks interesting.

I'm curious as to why the 'Savages' rule forces a unit to shoot and charge. With Rapid Fire weapons this ain't happening.

First off, thanks for taking the time to answer. That's really appreciated.

@Locarno

Veteran Squads are the real backbone of my force and I don't get why they could not get Platoon organisation. From a fluffy standpoint (not a very good justification but still), there should be no problem for infantry squads such as Vets to work like standard IG infantry. The extra amount of power they could receive could be mitigated by nerfing special rules like BIg Game Hunters, but I don't see this as a terrible issue.

Veteran Assault Squad is indeed underpriced. I think I will remove the melta bomb form the Sarge, that's an unnecessary bonus. Krak should stay there but for a price, the same for the Visors. Maybe 90pts should do the trick? Isn't that risky for a not-that-tough unit?
Other questions arise in my head :
- Should a special unit be priced by doing a simple sum of its wargear or should one put a discount on it so it can be more effective/have flavour? Because Regular Vets with Carapace Armour are far from being the assault specialists I want my guys to be...
- The crux of the matter is the "usefulness" of such a unit in my list: by being 90+ pts naked, do people still want to play them? Almost a hundred points for guardsmen with 4+ is not seductive I guess. I want any stranger reading my list to be torn between two choice: a really effective elite unit OR more unexpensive bodies like Militsiya. Both choices should be balanced, which I find hard to do since 40k rules and IG tactics favour massed lasgun fire.
- I'm open to the mitigation of Big Game Hunters and Visor rules if you have ideas. I never heard about Hardened Armour rule, do you have details?

Militsiya shall work like Conscripts, that is to say meatshields and cheap CC units. Maybe a Lascarbine could suit them, even though the models have lasguns. What could be the consequences to have like, 2 special weapons per 10 guys in a 30 men blob? That would make them the best unit in the Codex right? I don't really want that.

Coaxial bolter: I will stick to the regular rule.

RPG: many debates with my LGS admin about this weapon. To me it should stay at 10pts because it is simply not as costly and complex as a plasmagun. That's a light and crude weapon, which should be able to threaten light armour and occasionally, do something against medium armour. That's why I did not use the Rending USR rule : S6+6+3 (in the best case) could blast a Land Raide, and that's not what I want, especially when combined with orders. Shred can be really nasty and there, I'd rather agree with you. Maybe I should mitigate the rule to create a new one or use a less powerful USR? The idea is to give something special to the AP rocket.

To conclude, I wonder how to make an attractive force which is not too short on numbers and can give an impression of being very tough and merciless (the latter is not that much developed in my rules and that's a shame I guess).

@raverrn
Oops, I forgot about the no assault with Rapid Fire. The idea behind their behaviour is that Militsyia is made of criminals, barbaric tribes and other scum from the Rhayé sectors. They compensate the numbers of the standard RSD and work as meatshields and repression forces when the forces are engaged in full-scale Inquisitorial-mandated purgation. They have no respect for anything and are prone to cut anything they see with their big machetes, if I can sum up the idea.

If you're looking for a rule for the RPG, Forgeworld has one called 'Sunder' which allows you to re-roll Armor Penetration. It's a lot like Tank Hunters, but per weapon instead of per model. Something like:

RPG-30: S6 AP3 24" Salvo 1/1 Sunder


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something else to consider about these special-weapon heavy squads. Modern squads DO carry a lot of specialist weapons - a cursory glance says for a frontline squad you're looking at four machinegunners (RPK and PKM), two grenadiers and one anti-tank specialist. What you WON'T see is a squad all loaded down with the same weapon.

I'd be cool with five special weapons in a squad if you couldn't take more than two of the same one.

If you're looking for a rule for the RPG, Forgeworld has one called 'Sunder' which allows you to re-roll Armor Penetration. It's a lot like Tank Hunters, but per weapon instead of per model. Something like:

RPG-30: S6 AP3 24" Salvo 1/1 Sunder

But such a thing would invalidate the usefulness of Bring It Down order as soon as an infantry squad take a RPG... I think the launcher is fine like it is, it's rather a matter of frequency among the army. Maybe a 3/5 RPG for special weapons limit in Assault Squad could do the trick.

So; after two test games, I reworked the codex a little. Globally I was not very lucky with the dices but I really felt my guys were not doing well what they are supposed to do, that is to say be shock troopers. I feel like my meta is quite competitive, despite being administrated very carefully by a nice guy.

Back to the main units I discussed earlier:

--------------------------

General rules of the army

Iron Discipline : same as DKoK morale checks. They do not test when loosing 25% or more of their numbers during move and shooting phase. Can also use a 12'' Ld bubble from their officers for tests.

Mechanized Assault: RSD Chimera are Fast

Big Game hunters : a unit with this rule has the Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter USR.

Savages: A unit with this special rule must pass a Ld check when it is too far from a RSD officer (out of a 12'' bubble or no Officer/Commissar/Priest/other in the unit. Milician Squad Sarge not counting for this rule). If failed, throw a D6:
- on 1/2, the unit must shoot and charge the closest enemy model it sees (Lasguns count as Assault 1)
- on 2/3, they must go to ground and can't do anything more on this turn,
- 5/6, they retreat to the closest edge of the table (2D6+2'' distance).

Tank riding: A unit with this special rule can ride a vehicule with the Tank USR. It can start the game riding its Dedicated transport instead of being inside.
- The ridden tank becomes an Assault Vehicule and has a 6+ cover save.
- The unit may assault from any point of the vehicule.
- Any moral and disembarkment rule related to units in transports apply.
- The riding unit can't shoot
- Any hit on the vehicule is also applied to the riding unit with the same S and AP. 1 hit on a chimera = 1 it on the riding unit. The same when the enemy is targeting the riding unit.
- If the vehicule is damaged :
- Wrecked : normal consequences on passengers + 1D6 S4 AP- automatic hits on the unit.
- Explode ! : normal consequences on passengers + 1D6+3 S4 AP3 automatic hits on the unit.
- If the vehicule crosses a Dangerous terrain : Initiative test for each model of the riding unit and 1 S4 AP- automatic hit if failed.
- If the vehicule is Immobilized, the riding unit may execute an emergency disembarkment and can't do anything on its next turn.


--------------------------------------

Special Weapons and Wargear

RPG launcher (special weapon, 10pts/fig):
- AT rocket. R24'' S6 AP3 Assault1, Hollow Warhead (Counts as AP2 when Armour Penetration roll/To Wound roll gives 6), Man Portable (a model with a RPG must carry a Krinkov Lascarbine and can't have another special weapon. It must choose which weapon it uses)
- AP rocket. R24" S3 AP6 Assault 1, Shred
Models in the same unit must choose the same rocket when firing.

Krinkov Lascarbine :
- R9-18" S3 AP- Assault 1
- R0-9" S3 AP5 Assault 2

Militsiya Machete S: User AP4 Melee

Coaxial Bolter (Vehicule Equipment, +5pts) : R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire, Coaxial (if the bolter hits an enemy model, the main turret-mounted weapon of the vehicule is Twin-linked)

Ballistic Visor (+1pt/fig): Reroll failed armor saves against Gets Hot! wounds.

RSD Radio-vox : unlimited range for orders issued by radio-vox. The ordered unit must have a radiovox. Can't be used to reroll failed Ld Checks for orders.

Bulletproof vest : 6+ armor save.

-------------------------------------------

RSD Core Units

HQ

CCS (65pts)
- Same special rules as CCS + Iron discipline.
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

TROOPS

All units may be taken in Platoon.

Veteran Squad (65pts)
- Same special Rules as Vets + Iron Discipline
- Same statline and same options as regular Codex
- Same equipment as regular codex, frag, 2 special weapons (with 2RPG max)
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

Assault Veteran Squad (85pts)
- Same special Rules as Vets + Iron Discipline, Big Game Hunters
- Same statline + up to 4 Vets may take a Special Weapons (3RPG max)
- Equipment : Krinkov Lascarbine, Carapace Armour, Ballistic Visor, CCW, Krak & Frag.
- May have a Chimera, a Taurox or a Valkyrie as Dedicated Transport.

Militsiya Squad(35pts)
- Same Special Rules as regular Guardsmen + Savages + Tank Riding.
- Same statline + Sarge has 2A.
- Same equipment as regular codex minus the Flak armour. Have Bulletproof vest instead (6+ save) .
- May add up to 10 Militsiyamen (4pts/fig) +1 Special weapon per 10 man
- Can't have RPG, Plasma and Meltaguns.
- Whole squad may have Militsyia Machetes : +20pts
- May take a Chimera

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chimera IFV "Rhayé pattern" (65pts)
- Same Special Rules + Mechanized Assault
- May replace its Multilaser by an Autocannon (+10pts)

----------------------------------

Here you go. Hope I'm not buffing my codex too much, I'm eager to hear your thoughts. Likewise, answers to my question on my previous post are still verymuch appreciated.

I kind of like it, but I think the tank-riders rule is a tad harsh on the embarked unit, any hit on the vehicle counts as a hit on the unit? No thank you, maybe make only certain to hit rolls hit the riding unit? Or at least give them some sort of additional save for having a bunch of metal between them and the firing

 War Kitten wrote:
I kind of like it, but I think the tank-riders rule is a tad harsh on the embarked unit, any hit on the vehicle counts as a hit on the unit? No thank you, maybe make only certain to hit rolls hit the riding unit? Or at least give them some sort of additional save for having a bunch of metal between them and the firing

That last sentence is backwards.

The riders are between the metal and the gun.

OP: for your vox; that is exactly how vox casters should work, none of this "better hearing the guy within shouting distance" garbage.

OP: for your vox; that is exactly how vox casters should work, none of this "better hearing the guy within shouting distance" garbage.

Thanks for saying that ! I have never understood how GW had the idea of a radio working in a 30m diameter.... Maybe because that's GW?

I have played my codex in a big battle at my independent game store last week and I can present you some conclusions. Tell me what you think :

- Fast Chimeras are a delight. It was a big table, with big distances to cover, and I really felt I was playing shock troops. Still, the speed of the tank is quite well balanced with its poor lateral armour; more mobility = more exposition to enemy fire in open areas.

- RPG are meh against hard targets, either vehicles or FMC but they murder T3 infantry and that's kind of more legit IMO. I'd say NATO vehicles are less concerned by RPG fire than infantry, so it is kind of coherent to see that on the table top.

- The unlimited range for radio-vox really gives a new dimension to unit coordination: you can boost your infantry easily without exposing your CCS too much while it gave more flexibility to your troops. I'm really happy about this tweak.

- Krinkov LasCarbines are nice but not OP. Kind of situational since they are not AP4 but funny against 5+ infantry.

- Unlike what have been forecasted here, Assault Squads are not OP at all. I played in a low intensity league and they do not destroy anything while staying relatively soft (T3 4+ is not that great). Globally, my infantry do well but its efficiency decreases very quickly once the enemy start to shoot it. They are basically guardsmen and die like guardsmen and their relatively small numbers are kind of a problem in the last turns of a game.

I will not buff them more but I feel the game mechanisms stop elite infantry units (not my guys, which are not that "elite" but scions, Marines, etc...) from relying on anything else than chance (T and Saves) to survive. Idk but, elite soldiers who know how to shoot and hide should not be killed by massed small arms fire when they are in cover. I don't really know how to explain my feelings but that's another debate anyway.

If you have any advice, criticism or remark, please share them. I think I'll update this thread with latest rules improvements and new units stats regularly.
Thanks for reading.

Just to test the water before adding this to my codex :

What would you say about a Multimelta option for Storm Chimeras? I thought it could be interesting to add this option to replace the hull-mounted HB?
Given the fact my Chimeras are already Fast and cost 70pts, would it be OP to add this for +10pts?

Pros: a single shot at BS3 is not that dangerous and must be at Melta range to be really interesting.

Cons: Fast would turn the Chimera into a very dangerous platform for a multimelta, maybe too much for the 650pts games I usually play.

Should it be 10 ou 15pts if we admit it's an acceptable idea?