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The rule in question:

"Biker Boss: An army led by Zhadsnark may include Warbikers (if available in the army list) as Troops choices, but the army may not include any Deff Dreads, Killa Kanz or Big Guns. In addition..." It goes on to explain how he confers scout to his unit of bikes.

So do people interpret "army" to mean detachment, where you could have Mek Guns in a second detachment but no troop bikes, or do you get both troop bikes and no Mek guns in any other Ork detachment in your army? (I don't care to hear about how Big guns TECHNICALLY aren't Mek guns because that's too rules lawyery for me)

RaW? I would say that if you choose Zhadsnark to be your Warlord (leading your army) that you can't have any Deff Dreads or Killa Kanz anywhere in your army. Warbikers would count as Troops (or Fast Attack) for any Detachment. Mek Guns would be allowed since Mek Guns and Big Guns aren't the same unit. Big Guns no longer exist.

I would also say that these rules were published for an out of print edition of 40k (6th) and reference an out of print Orks Codex. You're going to have to work out house rules for how to handle these things.

Army means all of a Player's detachments.

Do note that in many cases "army" references for Special Character rules that were created before 6th Edition tend to have been errata'd or updated in later editions to being "detachment". I do not see an FAQ on Imperial Armour 8 noting such a change, however. Whenever they get to IA: 8 2nd, I would expect the change.

I feel like most people are playing as detachment and not army....is there something in the ITC rules that I'm missing?

 luke1705 wrote:
I feel like most people are playing as detachment and not army....is there something in the ITC rules that I'm missing?

I don't know, ask the ITC forums on that mark.

I would say that army means all of one's detachments or formations.

Biker Boss is a warlord trait that you only get when Zhadsnark is your Warlord and it is relevant to any detachment or formation from the Ork faction.

Orks are battle brothers with other Orks so the Warlord abilities (and restrictions) get shared.

I would love to know the ITC answer as well.

I think it's pretty clear per RAW that army means army. Whether the intent now is that it should be detachment in some way is unknown, though I think we probably all agree of it were written now in 7th it would very likely refer to detachment.

col_impact wrote:
I would say that army means all of one's detachments or formations.

Biker Boss is a warlord trait that you only get when Zhadsnark is your Warlord and it is relevant to any detachment or formation from the Ork faction.

Orks are battle brothers with other Orks so the Warlord abilities (and restrictions) get shared.

Spoiler:

Warlord
If Zhadsnark ‘Da Rippa’ is your army’s Warlord then he
does not roll on the Warlord Traits table, but instead
receives the following unique trait:
• Biker Boss: An army led by Zhadsnark may include
Warbikers (if available in the army list) as Troops
choices, but the army may not include any Deff
Dreads, Killa Kans or Big Gunz. In addition, if
Zhadsnark begins the game as part of a Warbikers unit
then he gains the Scout special rule.

Spoiler:

Battle Brothers
Units from the same army that are Battle Brothers treat each other as ‘friendly units’ for
all rules purposes. This means, for example, that units:
• Can benefit from the Warlord Trait of a Warlord that is a Battle Brother.

Is there a source for "da rippa" other than kastra novem?

If not then this whole post is a complete fabrication: biker boss is not a warlord trait. It is also
A warlord trait that would be impossible to function as you make your list before the game and before determining your warlord for the game; so if you have taken a dread pre-selecting da rippa as your warlord that is a legal list and then gets invalidated by your selection of warlord. The inverse is also true when using an FOC and trying to make an all biker list: you will have too many fast attack and no troops(an illegal list) until you get to the beginning of the game where you need a legal list and select your warlord changing the battlefield roles.

I am not sure what the most current rules for da rippa are at the moment.

Da rippa's rules are in IA8

And are udated in an FW free to download update.

ITC rulings are all based on that update.BUT and this is a big but. Those updated rules where really buggy and more importantly FW does no longer link to those rules on their site. The link still works. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Ork_Dread_Mob_Army_List_Update.pdf
But they are hidden on the FW site.

I have no idea what rules I should use. Personally I would still use the FW update list if a tournament allowed room to wiggle it in, but I also like to use some chapter approved stuff that still works.

Aside from that here is my interpretation of the rules.
General note if you have to rule the same thing for bikes are troops as no deff dreds. Bikes are troops in army and only the no deff dreads restriction in the detachments can never be an option.

Update RAW: If he is your warlord your entire army can't use Deff Dreads etc. or Big Gunz but you can't field big gunz any way
Updated RAI: you also can't field Mek gunz if he is your warlord. You could ague that the restrictioun only counts for his detachment but this seems to go against the fluff ( why the hell would he allow slow allies if he doesn't allow slow stuff in his army) and RAW so I would say no slow stuff in your amry if da rippa has a say in it.

IA8 RAW: No idea what "if he leads" or "warband" means
IA8 RAI: If he leads = If he is your warlord then no slow stuff in your warband. Still no Idea what warband means but I am leaning to detachment.

There is also the 3th and not so popular option.
->Da rippa currently has no rules since IA8 is clearly outdated and FW no longer supports their also outdated update .

It might be good to point out just how not buggy and not compatible with 7th the FW download update document really is.

- It has the famous 400pts discount stompa in it if you read Buzzgob's entry in a "creative" way and you don't notice that it links to the wrong stompa. ( or if you are the ITC)
-The Buzzgob has to be your warlord and his trait is that all deffdreads witin range are scoring units
-No models in the document have the 'ere we go rule.
All infantry models have the Waagh! rule that only warbosses have in the current codex. So models in this document ( even a boy) can issue a waaagh if they somehow are your warlord. But none of them have any benefit of it. Nor do any normal ork units joined by them benefit from it.
So if da rippa is your warlord he can call a waagh! but he and his unit can never use it to go faster.
-Da rippa can tank shock ( and thus ram) but is not a vehicle.
-Da rippa has a special that gives him jink ( he is already a bike )
-The gretchin scavenger mob and the Mek HQ reference to rules no longer in the ork codex
-Deff dreads are troops but are don't count as scoring units.
-Points of the units don't match up with the Ork codex.
-It links to the looded wagon in the ork codex but it is no longer there.

To be honest I would have an easier time avoiding rule mismatchings when using my enslavers ( with WD rules from 2004) then when I would try to field a dread mob army or da rippa.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I would say that army means all of one's detachments or formations.

Biker Boss is a warlord trait that you only get when Zhadsnark is your Warlord and it is relevant to any detachment or formation from the Ork faction.

Orks are battle brothers with other Orks so the Warlord abilities (and restrictions) get shared.

Spoiler:

Warlord
If Zhadsnark ‘Da Rippa’ is your army’s Warlord then he
does not roll on the Warlord Traits table, but instead
receives the following unique trait:
• Biker Boss: An army led by Zhadsnark may include
Warbikers (if available in the army list) as Troops
choices, but the army may not include any Deff
Dreads, Killa Kans or Big Gunz. In addition, if
Zhadsnark begins the game as part of a Warbikers unit
then he gains the Scout special rule.

Spoiler:

Battle Brothers
Units from the same army that are Battle Brothers treat each other as ‘friendly units’ for
all rules purposes. This means, for example, that units:
• Can benefit from the Warlord Trait of a Warlord that is a Battle Brother.

Is there a source for "da rippa" other than kastra novem?

If not then this whole post is a complete fabrication: biker boss is not a warlord trait. It is also
A warlord trait that would be impossible to function as you make your list before the game and before determining your warlord for the game; so if you have taken a dread pre-selecting da rippa as your warlord that is a legal list and then gets invalidated by your selection of warlord. The inverse is also true when using an FOC and trying to make an all biker list: you will have too many fast attack and no troops(an illegal list) until you get to the beginning of the game where you need a legal list and select your warlord changing the battlefield roles.

I don't understand where you're coming from, as that is the case for a number of situations where taking X turns Y into troops. So you can't have a legal army list unless you make Zhadsnark your warlord. Ok. So it's a given that you need to do that.

And IA 8 defines his biker boss warlord trait. This is no different than any other number of unique warlord traits, such as Fateweaver's warp storm manipulation. Saying "it's not legal unless it's defined in more than one publication" would invalidate models from every single faction except Tau, since they have like 6 versions of their codex now

 luke1705 wrote:
I don't understand where you're coming from, as that is the case for a number of situations where taking X turns Y into troops. So you can't have a legal army list unless you make Zhadsnark your warlord. Ok. So it's a given that you need to do that.

Da rippa's ruling is not optimal at best.

Most HQ's that make something troops do just that, make something troops.
So you bring a legal list to the game with an HQ and legal TROOPS then you start to roll for stuff including your warlord trait.

You could argue that Da rippa does something else.
Da rippa turns Bikes into troops with his warlord trait instead of a special rule. Before the moment that you rolled for warlord traits your army was either illegal if your detachments required a minimum amount of troops or you had to have other troops. Not sure if it really affects normal games at all but there are some campaign and tournament formats where this could become problematic. I have experienced myself that my army suddenly became illegal / unbound due to having to take the same army each round and not being able to supply the warlord in a multi player game.

This isn't the most dubious part about his rules but it isn't an example of good rule writing either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To make a better case for the not so popular option.

IA8 is no longer for sale at the FW site making the scenario that da rippa no longer has rule support at all a likely possibility.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I would say that army means all of one's detachments or formations.

Biker Boss is a warlord trait that you only get when Zhadsnark is your Warlord and it is relevant to any detachment or formation from the Ork faction.

Orks are battle brothers with other Orks so the Warlord abilities (and restrictions) get shared.

Spoiler:

Warlord
If Zhadsnark ‘Da Rippa’ is your army’s Warlord then he
does not roll on the Warlord Traits table, but instead
receives the following unique trait:
• Biker Boss: An army led by Zhadsnark may include
Warbikers (if available in the army list) as Troops
choices, but the army may not include any Deff
Dreads, Killa Kans or Big Gunz. In addition, if
Zhadsnark begins the game as part of a Warbikers unit
then he gains the Scout special rule.

Spoiler:

Battle Brothers
Units from the same army that are Battle Brothers treat each other as ‘friendly units’ for
all rules purposes. This means, for example, that units:
• Can benefit from the Warlord Trait of a Warlord that is a Battle Brother.

Is there a source for "da rippa" other than kastra novem?

If not then this whole post is a complete fabrication: biker boss is not a warlord trait. It is also
A warlord trait that would be impossible to function as you make your list before the game and before determining your warlord for the game; so if you have taken a dread pre-selecting da rippa as your warlord that is a legal list and then gets invalidated by your selection of warlord. The inverse is also true when using an FOC and trying to make an all biker list: you will have too many fast attack and no troops(an illegal list) until you get to the beginning of the game where you need a legal list and select your warlord changing the battlefield roles.

I don't understand where you're coming from, as that is the case for a number of situations where taking X turns Y into troops. So you can't have a legal army list unless you make Zhadsnark your warlord. Ok. So it's a given that you need to do that.

And IA 8 defines his biker boss warlord trait. This is no different than any other number of unique warlord traits, such as Fateweaver's warp storm manipulation. Saying "it's not legal unless it's defined in more than one publication" would invalidate models from every single faction except Tau, since they have like 6 versions of their codex now

No on both cases
None of the X battlefield role becomes y battlefield role rules are dependent on warlord.

Ia8 never says anything about bikerboss as a warlord trait; it is just a special rule he has(ia 8 was written during 5th edition, before warlord traits existed).

The Dread Mob update changed so that his Warlord Trait as Biker Boss and that that made Warbikers Troops. He doesn't have it as a special rule

That is what I had asked earlier in the thread: is there a newer version than IA:8.

And that just means it cannot function under RAW; the whole thing has to be houseruled wherein the restriction/allowance would just effect the primary detachment(also guessing that the change/update was in 6th where the allies rules would not allow for a second detachment of orks anyways).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That is what I had asked earlier in the thread: is there a newer version than IA:8.

And that just means it cannot function under RAW; the whole thing has to be houseruled wherein the restriction/allowance would just effect the primary detachment(also guessing that the change/update was in 6th where the allies rules would not allow for a second detachment of orks anyways).

Have you read the Dread Mob update?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Ork_Dread_Mob_Army_List_Update.pdf

He's got page 7 all to himself. It's a fixed warlord trait. I understand what you're saying about a potential illegal list based on choice of warlord, but it's really nonsense. You just have to make him your warlord if you don't have any other troops choices in his detachment.

As far as my original question (which has been answered) you're speculating that it only affects the primary detachment. That is a perfectly fine answer to my question (and the only question I asked FWIW). I was just testing the waters to see what people thought the intent was/how it is generally played. My meta could not care less, but I was curious as to how larger events FAQ it (if at all, as it does seem relatively straightforward).

Thank you for your input

My guess is that even the larger and slower events will eventually notice that the link to the outdated update is gone and the book no longer sold..

No, I didn't. That is why I asked if there was an update to his rules(and if reading that twice already is hard to grasp maybe it explains why there is trouble understanding the rules involved).

As a warlord trait it does nothing(even though that update was also written in a previous edition that only allowed 2 detachments, and they could not both be of the same faction) because of the reasons I gave earlier.