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Last time I was on the tourney scene the only way you saw these guys was typhus, zombies and hell turkeys or some other nurgle themed army, has this changed at all? What sort of lists do people see nowadays?

Yep its changed. Now you see no CSM lists in tourneys

2 sorcs on bikes + 3 drakes, supporting Tyrands Flyrants. Probably the best thing that uses CSM.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Yep its changed. Now you see no CSM lists in tourneys

nice

Things in CSM that worth consideration maybe Nurgle Daemon Prince, Nurgle Biker Lord (PF and LC) or Nurgle Biker Sorcceror, a couple of min troops, then 2 squad of 5 Nurgle Spawns plus one Heldrake, or 1 unit of 5 Spawns and 2 Heldrake, or 3 units of Spawns. Heavy support should be 2 Maulerfiends plus a Havoc squad, or simply 3 Maulerfined.

Rush up the spawns to tie up as many enemy units using multi assault. Regular small arms like bolters almost cannot harm you as you are T6, and melta or plasma can only knock out one or two wounds from your 15 T6 wounds, and grav is useless. At the mean time your lords, daemon prince, Heldrake and Maulerfiends would do the most killing. Such list would be a nightmare to Codex Space Marines as they generally cannot spam high RoF S6 / S7 shooting weapons. Unless someone knows your list beforehand and tally you by spamming Assault Cannon Razorback in Glaidus Strike Force.

There's not much good in the codex. These are the few things worth a darn:
1. Juggerlords from the vanilla codex
2. Nurgle Lords from the Crimson Slaughter
3. Plague Marines
4. Maulerfiends
5. Bikers
6. Spawn
7. ML3 Sorcerers
8. Termicide
9. Autocannon Havocs
10. Black Mace Prince

You also have to keep in mind how much better their competition is. Loyalist Bikers are MUCH better, Ironclad Dreads with a Pod basically equates to Maulerfiends, etc.

One idea I had in mind, in trying to keep up with many of the bloody death stars that pop up, is trying to create one for us. There would be a Purge FOC using the Crimson Slaughter supplement, and then a CAD with the Vanilla codex. Take a minimum amount that you need from the Purge (so 2 Termicides), and then take a Sorcerer and Lord. The Lord will take MoN, Daemonheart, a Bike, the Horns, and the usual Power Fist/Claw combo. The Sorcerer takes the Balestar and a Bike, and goes to ML3. This one has a Force Axe and rolls Divination, fishing for the Rending and 4++ powers.
In the CAD, you take two units of Cultists, and once again a Lord and Sorcerer. The Sorcerer has no relics; just go to ML3 and a Force Axe and Bike. Then the Lord will take a Juggernaught, AoBF, and a Melta Bomb.

The list in question is as follows:
The Purge FOC
x1 Lord
. MoN, Bike, Daemonheart, The Slaughterer's Horns, Sigil, Blight Grenades, Melta Bombs, Power Fist, Lightning Claw
x1 Sorcerer
. Bike, ML3, Melta Bombs, Force Axe and Bolt Pistol, Sigil, Balestar

x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Melta
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Melta
x3 Terminators
. 3 Combi-Melta

x4 Maulerfiends

CAD
x1 Lord
. MoK, Juggernaut, AoBF and Bolt Pistol, Sigil, Melta Bombs
x1 Sorcerer
. Bike, ML3, Force Axe and Bolt Pistol, Spell Familiar, Sigil

x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists

x5 Spawn

That deathstar doesn't work, the juggerlord and nurgle lord can't be in the same unit, marks can't mix in the same unit.

You're better off changing the juggerlord to another sorceror on a bike. Try to get invisibility on one of them, if you get on the first one, go biomancy on the second. This way you'll have enough dice to get your powers through. Mark of nurgle on the spawn, and you'll have a decent deathstar.

Take a defense line or something with a comms relay for your terminators to come in asap.

Don't know if you use forgeworld but if you do try to get a sicaran and hellblades or talons can't remember which one is the cheaper one and use the perdis rift legacy on one of your vehicles (reroll seize cause you want to first for psychic powers).

Unfortunately chaos Marines needs imperial armour 13 to be decent.

I use a balestar sorceror with 3 conversion beamer artillery, those are gross when you get the ignore cover power.

Well both of them can be in an unmarked unit. The unit itself doesn't have a mark, so wouldn't they each be allowed to join it?

That's just the way I see it. I've not used the list; I merely made it about 3 days ago.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well both of them can be in an unmarked unit. The unit itself doesn't have a mark, so wouldn't they each be allowed to join it?

That's just the way I see it. I've not used the list; I merely made it about 3 days ago.

The unit has a mark, its just not the entire unit that has it.

CSM are pretty outdated, like 3 edtions outdated despite a 6-th dex in fact, but still have a couple good things. They can compete pretty well using dataslates, forgeworld and daemon/daemonkin allies. It's never easy but doable with a right mindset.

Yeah so the unit is the spawn, 2 sorcerors, nurgle lord and juggerlord, then the unit has both nurgle and khorne mark in it which isn't allowed. Pretty much the only dude that can join a unit with a different mark is abaddon.

Like I said before, I would rather have 3 sorceror in the unit and the spawn with nurgle, the unit will then be majority toughness 6. With a good chance for invisibility, and if you're lucky endurance it'll be a tough unit.

guys you are forgetting belakor, the most competitve i have seen was 2 sorc then 2x10 cultists and then 3x5 spawn and rinse and repeat with maybe belakor and a heldrake tossed in

I run 3 sorcerers, lord, 2 units spawn, 2 drake, 2 maulerfiends, min cultist taxes... it's solid but does have some holes

Using IA13 is a biggie. The sicarin is great, and the fire raptor is insane in most games.

Rapier weapons are also a wonderful unit to consider. They can bring some serious firepower and also have access to anti infantry or long range anti armor weapons.

That being said, Belakor is sitiuational good. He needs to be buffing something big with invis.

I sometimes use a Chaos Knight. He is hit or miss most games.

Obliterators are still good as long as you taking them MON.

Even with IA13 CSM are not going to compete against top tier lists at all.

No army should ever have to endure the $200 tax of buying a FW Book simply to maintain the notion of being useful within the same Faction....

IA13LatD might have good units and rules for said units, but none of those said models / units make CSM worth playing CSM. Im not going to buy a 60 CSM book just so I can look at my models constantly die in droves until I sink another $200 into another book, then all the models from FW I'd need to even compete on a mind numbingly even level with today's meta's.

CSM is in dire need of an update, they cannot be competitive on their own and only play benchwarmer for daemons....I still run them though

About the nicest thing about the codex is nobody ever thinks they will be playing against CSM so they have no idea what to fear haha

Edit: Huron is still awesome thought for his cheap inflatrate

I'm just starting out with CSM and was wondering whether possesed are any good, particularly with the CS supplement to make them troops, and whether it's worth bulking up a unit or keeping them as MSU?

Possesed are unfortunately overpriced. CSM lack an assault transport outside of a LR. You need to have possesed in CC to make them worth it.

Crimson slauhter possessed can be used as retinue for Chaos Sorcerer with Prophet of the Voices artefact

Prophet of the Voices makes Sorc a Daemon to use Malefic Daemonology with less risk of perils (and he can still take Spell familiar), but he can only join CS Possessed.

It also gives him CS Possessed chart (Beasts / Shrouded / 3++ Rending)

I've tried it and it's not worth the effort. You could have chaos daemon allies for more WC and wounds. Sorc will still peril on ml3 summoning with daemonology. And possessed are way too expensive and slow as a retinue.

I've run possessed and hilariously had some success with them but that was against riptide spam tau who didn't want to leave his deployment zone and i simply got up to a relic with cultists and moved out of los while possessed occupied his attention for 2 turns thanks to 5++ and fearless. Was in 6-th and i'd be better off with more fearless cultists or noize marines, to be honest.

My advice on possessed is simple: avoid them or at least don't invest in them if you absolutely need to have a squad like in KDK formation or when you feel a need to field possessed cause they've gotten to dusty on the shelf. And it's coming from a person who sees mutilators as an ok unit. Possessed are a cool looking model with one of the worst pack of rules-to-cost ratio in the entire game. Probably THE worst. There is no way that i'm aware of that you could make them more effective than other options you have.

1. U just have to accept that CSM were designed to lose.

2. You are ment to die in droves take msu or more hordes

3. All your models and upgrades cost too much so dont waste too many points on upgrades or extra bodies

4. You have to min max to be remotely competitive

5. You need daemons to help you cheat with grimoire of true name and Be'Lakor for invisibility.

6. Just have fun knowing you wont win

7. Dont go to tournaments with pure csm... use daemons...

Havocs with autocannons if you do not use Forge World. Be'lakor is good too (dataslate).

Filch mentioned grimoire. This is huge and he is right. Turning an invul save from a 4++ to a 2++ is great.

Do this on a knight, ion shield side goes to 2++ and all other facing get his/her daemon save of a 3++

^ you need fatewaver to reliably do that

It isn't all doom and gloom like everyone makes it out to be. If people could win with Tau back in 5th, we can make something happen in 7th with Chaos.

For the most part, Nurgle is the way to go. If you can, definitely get some Forgeworld. Chaos gets some of the best lovin' Forgeworld has to offer.

Unless you're really not a fan of Allies, take a look at spicing up your army with some Daemons, Renegades and Heretics , Necrons, or Orks. They can be used to alleviate some of our weaknesses.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
It isn't all doom and gloom like everyone makes it out to be. If people could win with Tau back in 5th, we can make something happen in 7th with Chaos.

For the most part, Nurgle is the way to go. If you can, definitely get some Forgeworld. Chaos gets some of the best lovin' Forgeworld has to offer.

Unless you're really not a fan of Allies, take a look at spicing up your army with some Daemons, Renegades and Heretics , Necrons, or Orks. They can be used to alleviate some of our weaknesses.

Tau in 5th were not in the hole that CSM are in now.

Question: How are loyalist bikes better than chaos?

From what I understand, chaos bikes have more attacks base and access to chaos marks / icons.

Genuine question as I don't see it

The bikes have And They Shall Know No Fear and access to Grav weapons as a baseline. Here is where it gets really bad:

Ravenwing: Reroll Jink Save, Scout
White Scars: +1 Jink Save, +1 HoW, Hit and Run

The SM bikes put out more damage and survive longer.

SM bikes are also easily troops for ObSec and don't have to spend 10 pts on a suicide character

Oh geeze yea you're right, I understand now :(

Shame really as I'm rather pleased with my 6 chaos bikers (kit bashed with Raptor helmets, arms and chainswords) and thought they were reasonable counters (untested)