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So let's go through a thought experiment here. What if the Emperor of Mankind, in his divine *cough* wisdom, never created the Thunder Warriors as genetically altered killer machines, but instead decided to use all that mind of his to create a diciplined army of welltrained but inexpensive warriors, akin to the Roman Army. Basically making an entire army of the Solar Auxilia. Perhaps the Emperor wasn't a ten foot monstrousity of gold and muscle we know, but is just an empowered human, large and tall and all that, but not more than stronger, more clever and more warpy human.

So when he wanted to take the galaxy for himself, he decided to create his Great Crusade, he wanted an entire fukken galaxy-spanning army of mofos like the Solar Auxilia, with all the many resources used for the Marines stretching even farther for simple humans, who simply has good equipment, great training and courage! He created the Primarchs as we know, but again, they're smaller and not over the top as we know them - Roughly on the strength of a Chapter Master, for example. Different Legions with different motifs, loyalists and traitors, retro-like weaponry like the Solar, all that.

So basically, instead of an actually kinda small and limited army of superhumans, we have an absolutely freaking massive army of retrofuturistic Roman legions of billions of welltrained soldiers, warrior lodges and all that. How would the setting be different? I personally would love a more retro-futuristic theme than what the IG gives off, and the fact that the Imperium doesn't win by plot- I mean power armour, but by massive sacrifices like the IG. I'd like them to play up the Roman side of the Imperium, too.

A particularly mean looking Orks farts in their direction and they all die.
The story now focuses on the Necrons trying to find their way in the galaxy.

It would depend on whether or not the progression of technology was halted like it is in the current setting. If it is then it would basically carve out a large empire but it would eventually stagnate. it would also take years or decades to take each planet/system. If it did progress forward, the momentum of war would cause technology to take off and we would become superior until we meet a race that is technologically superior to us. Either we adapt and over come, or we make peace. Either way it would have been much slower.

The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

We'd have Warhammer Fantasy (the old, cool one), but with more high tech stuff.

 Psienesis wrote:
The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

DAOT weapons are the kind the necrons might call over powered.
The admech has a ton of the best stuff in its deepest vaults, weaponry that's massively dangerous and not for anyone but a senior magos to even know they exist

Back to subject, humans are still human. There's a peak. Marines have a higher peak capiblity.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

DAOT weapons are the kind the necrons might call over powered.
The admech has a ton of the best stuff in its deepest vaults, weaponry that's massively dangerous and not for anyone but a senior magos to even know they exist

Back to subject, humans are still human. There's a peak. Marines have a higher peak capiblity.

Agree, but they're also harder to recreate - Some lore state that a hundred volunteers dies on average per Marine created, and it takes a at least six years to get a Neophyte ready for his Power Armour. Their armour and gear is super-expensive and rare, and takes a lot of resources to produce, unlike las weaponry, for example. Fukken, you could give every Marine a Multilaser and a battery on his back for at least 1/4 of what it costs to keep them going with Bolters. A Solar Auxilia army, with all the backing that goes into the Marines, would be pretty hardcore, I think.

I know it's not the same, but one of the reasons the Roman legions was so succesful was because it was pretty easy to uphold and upkeep for it's effectiveness for the time, because it's easy for a large empire to get a lot of equipment to a lot of soldiers who has been trained to work as a diciplined army. It takes about a year or two to make a semi-large army of human warriors, and at least fifty years to make a Chapter, or form a new one.

Also, if you lose a Bolter: "HOLY SHIET WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WE LOST SOMETHING PRECIOUS FOR MANKIND". If you lose a Lascarbine: "Well... We did use all our resources to make sure we had enough of those, so whatever.".

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

DAOT weapons are the kind the necrons might call over powered.
The admech has a ton of the best stuff in its deepest vaults, weaponry that's massively dangerous and not for anyone but a senior magos to even know they exist

Back to subject, humans are still human. There's a peak. Marines have a higher peak capiblity.

Agree, but they're also harder to recreate - Some lore state that a hundred volunteers dies on average per Marine created, and it takes a at least six years to get a Neophyte ready for his Power Armour. Their armour and gear is super-expensive and rare, and takes a lot of resources to produce, unlike las weaponry, for example. Fukken, you could give every Marine a Multilaser and a battery on his back for at least 1/4 of what it costs to keep them going with Bolters. A Solar Auxilia army, with all the backing that goes into the Marines, would be pretty hardcore, I think.

I know it's not the same, but one of the reasons the Roman legions was so succesful was because it was pretty easy to uphold and upkeep for it's effectiveness for the time, because it's easy for a large empire to get a lot of equipment to a lot of soldiers who has been trained to work as a diciplined army. It takes about a year or two to make a semi-large army of human warriors, and at least fifty years to make a Chapter, or form a new one.

Also, if you lose a Bolter: "HOLY SHIET WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WE LOST SOMETHING PRECIOUS FOR MANKIND". If you lose a Lascarbine: "Well... We did use all our resources to make sure we had enough of those, so whatever.".

The death of hundreds to make an astartes isn't an issue at all. The Imperium is large enough that you could hundreds of billions of people in one day without even noticing the loss.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

DAOT weapons are the kind the necrons might call over powered.
The admech has a ton of the best stuff in its deepest vaults, weaponry that's massively dangerous and not for anyone but a senior magos to even know they exist

Back to subject, humans are still human. There's a peak. Marines have a higher peak capiblity.

Agree, but they're also harder to recreate - Some lore state that a hundred volunteers dies on average per Marine created, and it takes a at least six years to get a Neophyte ready for his Power Armour. Their armour and gear is super-expensive and rare, and takes a lot of resources to produce, unlike las weaponry, for example. Fukken, you could give every Marine a Multilaser and a battery on his back for at least 1/4 of what it costs to keep them going with Bolters. A Solar Auxilia army, with all the backing that goes into the Marines, would be pretty hardcore, I think.

I know it's not the same, but one of the reasons the Roman legions was so succesful was because it was pretty easy to uphold and upkeep for it's effectiveness for the time, because it's easy for a large empire to get a lot of equipment to a lot of soldiers who has been trained to work as a diciplined army. It takes about a year or two to make a semi-large army of human warriors, and at least fifty years to make a Chapter, or form a new one.

Also, if you lose a Bolter: "HOLY SHIET WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WE LOST SOMETHING PRECIOUS FOR MANKIND". If you lose a Lascarbine: "Well... We did use all our resources to make sure we had enough of those, so whatever.".

The death of hundreds to make an astartes isn't an issue at all. The Imperium is large enough that you could hundreds of billions of people in one day without even noticing the loss.

That's not my pledge. My pledge is that all those hundreds, welltrained and pretty fanatic young men easily could be trained to be soldiers. Plus hundred-or-so more, because also women can be a regular soldier.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The fear of technology is not caused by, or a result of, the creation of the Space Marines. In fact, it pre-dates the Emperor's appearance by many thousands of years (it *is* a result of the war with the Men of Iron), and was already in full effect before the Great Crusade, it only got worse when Mars got leveled and most of the scientists were either killed, driven insane, or driven insane and flew off to a place where magic was real and they wouldn't need science.

The AdMech is basically a gargantuan "cargo cult", because they've lost the ability to create the wonders they once did, but chances are if they can find the right relics, they can regain that ability (or so the belief goes). Coupled with the fact that a lot of their ancient technology is, to a greater or lesser extent, self-sentient, and incredibly fething dangerous, mucking about with random technology by uneducated rubes is a Really Bad Idea. Considering that they used to have weapons that fired black holes at people, letting some Underhive moron toy with what might be the generator for such a weapon is a recipe for disaster. That is why the AdMech teaches people to fear technology, because technology will feth you up.

DAOT weapons are the kind the necrons might call over powered.
The admech has a ton of the best stuff in its deepest vaults, weaponry that's massively dangerous and not for anyone but a senior magos to even know they exist

Back to subject, humans are still human. There's a peak. Marines have a higher peak capiblity.

Agree, but they're also harder to recreate - Some lore state that a hundred volunteers dies on average per Marine created, and it takes a at least six years to get a Neophyte ready for his Power Armour. Their armour and gear is super-expensive and rare, and takes a lot of resources to produce, unlike las weaponry, for example. Fukken, you could give every Marine a Multilaser and a battery on his back for at least 1/4 of what it costs to keep them going with Bolters. A Solar Auxilia army, with all the backing that goes into the Marines, would be pretty hardcore, I think.

I know it's not the same, but one of the reasons the Roman legions was so succesful was because it was pretty easy to uphold and upkeep for it's effectiveness for the time, because it's easy for a large empire to get a lot of equipment to a lot of soldiers who has been trained to work as a diciplined army. It takes about a year or two to make a semi-large army of human warriors, and at least fifty years to make a Chapter, or form a new one.

Also, if you lose a Bolter: "HOLY SHIET WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WE LOST SOMETHING PRECIOUS FOR MANKIND". If you lose a Lascarbine: "Well... We did use all our resources to make sure we had enough of those, so whatever.".

The death of hundreds to make an astartes isn't an issue at all. The Imperium is large enough that you could hundreds of billions of people in one day without even noticing the loss.

That's not my pledge. My pledge is that all those hundreds, welltrained and pretty fanatic young men easily could be trained to be soldiers. Plus hundred-or-so more, because also women can be a regular soldier.

No, the thing is that you don't understand is that their lives are utterly worthless. Mankind exists on the scale in 40k that his life actually is collectively worth less than the dirt he stands upon. Humanity is a cheap commodity to be expended on whatever you greater needs of the moment- be they Astartes or servitors.

Without space marines as a centerpiece I might find the 40k universe interesting, but as it is it reads like an elementary school "my hero can beat any hero" comic.

The lore would be far more logical, imo, due to the fact that you'd have legions of people wieldling hot-shot lasguns and power armour (ie Tempestus Scions +1, with 2,000x the numbers). Basically, humans would become the Tau, only xenocidal.

Remember 99% of the fighting is done by the guard , marines are incredibly rare only coming to kill an enemy commander or take out a major objective then leaving its only because of black library fluff that makes seem the marines are everywhere

40k yeah, I guess you could get by without marines. As long as you dont need a Macraggre or something to get in the way of anything stronger.

Although a chapter is more or less self sufficient. Both go into battle about the same time, marines probably a bit earlier. The resources they spend on a chapter would do diddly squat to equip the guard. But if you spend a bit of time and resources to make a war machine, that saves lives just by turning up, wouldnt you do it?

30k on the other hand. Theyre still squishy humies vs mostly other squishy humies or the orks. Unless they ran into a bunch of friendly planets first, the crusade would probably have gotten bogged down just after they left our galaxy. Unable to replenish losses. Having a bigger gun, Isnt a win button. Yanks are better equipped, trained and supported than Afganies, but theyre still there 15 yrs later. 25 yrs later theyre still poking around in Iraq. Not something you want your galaxy spanning empire doing.

Having a bunch of giants turn up, kick in your door, say join us or die, would help do that peacefully.
It might, might take 50 years to make a chapter in 40k. 30k they were churning out marines by the bucket full.

40k without marines? Would be similar but cooler. No more Fangta Claws and similar wonky stuff.

40k as we know wouldn't exist. You would have to rewrite the entire horus herasy, the great crusades, etc.

It's called the Imperial Guard.

I want a Space Marine standing between me and that Tyranid, not another appetizer tray.

Given that the Space Marines were an after thought to the Primarchs and only got made becuase the Primarchs got whisked away by the Chaos Gods, the Emperor clearly had a plan for winning and keeping the Imperium without the Marines.

As I'm primarily a roleplayer, I have often thought 40k without space marines would be quite interesting. Space marines SUCK for roleplaying. They don't have interesting lives besides get up, clean his bolter, cap a few nids', and chill in his cell jerking off to the writings of his primarch. They're boring as hell from that perspective.

In my view, space marines replaced with more of a Solar Auxilia feel with a bit more power armor and such would be bad ass. Hell, have the Imperium have similar political and military structures as the Empire in WFB. Dynastic struggles and intrigue and all that between Regional Governors and military elites. It's interesting from a role playing perspective.

The best ting to happen to 40k in a while fiction wise has been the Terra scenes in the Beast. It's such a welcome change from unrelenting bolter porn. Oh Abnett, give us Warmaster and a Pariah sequel.

Tanpon wrote:
As I'm primarily a roleplayer, I have often thought 40k without space marines would be quite interesting. Space marines SUCK for roleplaying. They don't have interesting lives besides get up, clean his bolter, cap a few nids', and chill in his cell jerking off to the writings of his primarch. They're boring as hell from that perspective.

In my view, space marines replaced with more of a Solar Auxilia feel with a bit more power armor and such would be bad ass. Hell, have the Imperium have similar political and military structures as the Empire in WFB. Dynastic struggles and intrigue and all that between Regional Governors and military elites. It's interesting from a role playing perspective.

The best ting to happen to 40k in a while fiction wise has been the Terra scenes in the Beast. It's such a welcome change from unrelenting bolter porn. Oh Abnett, give us Warmaster and a Pariah sequel.

This is about a fair look at marines as it is to characterize all eldar as arrogant brooding space elves.

Several novels flesh out marines and the primarchs as interesting and varied characters

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Tanpon wrote:
As I'm primarily a roleplayer, I have often thought 40k without space marines would be quite interesting. Space marines SUCK for roleplaying. They don't have interesting lives besides get up, clean his bolter, cap a few nids', and chill in his cell jerking off to the writings of his primarch. They're boring as hell from that perspective.

In my view, space marines replaced with more of a Solar Auxilia feel with a bit more power armor and such would be bad ass. Hell, have the Imperium have similar political and military structures as the Empire in WFB. Dynastic struggles and intrigue and all that between Regional Governors and military elites. It's interesting from a role playing perspective.

The best ting to happen to 40k in a while fiction wise has been the Terra scenes in the Beast. It's such a welcome change from unrelenting bolter porn. Oh Abnett, give us Warmaster and a Pariah sequel.

This is about a fair look at marines as it is to characterize all eldar as arrogant brooding space elves.

Several novels flesh out marines and the primarchs as interesting and varied characters

I second this. I have never felt that Marines were one-dimensional, simply because I have always read a variety of books that showed depth and diversity of character among the Space Marine Chapters and heroes. OBviously, the low standard the BL sets for its authors means that most books are going to be little more than Bolter Porn with cardboard cut-out characters, but that doesn't change the fact that any decent book that features Space Marines shows them to be round characters with interesting personalities.

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Tanpon wrote:
As I'm primarily a roleplayer, I have often thought 40k without space marines would be quite interesting. Space marines SUCK for roleplaying. They don't have interesting lives besides get up, clean his bolter, cap a few nids', and chill in his cell jerking off to the writings of his primarch. They're boring as hell from that perspective.

In my view, space marines replaced with more of a Solar Auxilia feel with a bit more power armor and such would be bad ass. Hell, have the Imperium have similar political and military structures as the Empire in WFB. Dynastic struggles and intrigue and all that between Regional Governors and military elites. It's interesting from a role playing perspective.

The best ting to happen to 40k in a while fiction wise has been the Terra scenes in the Beast. It's such a welcome change from unrelenting bolter porn. Oh Abnett, give us Warmaster and a Pariah sequel.

This is about a fair look at marines as it is to characterize all eldar as arrogant brooding space elves.

Several novels flesh out marines and the primarchs as interesting and varied characters

I second this. I have never felt that Marines were one-dimensional, simply because I have always read a variety of books that showed depth and diversity of character among the Space Marine Chapters and heroes. OBviously, the low standard the BL sets for its authors means that most books are going to be little more than Bolter Porn with cardboard cut-out characters, but that doesn't change the fact that any decent book that features Space Marines shows them to be round characters with interesting personalities.

I agree, I mean just look at how much Loken is developed in two books at the beginning of the HH series. Marines DO have a lot of depth to them, it depends highly on where you read, and how much you stick to your preconceived notions about them.