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So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

Which led me thinking how they're going to rebuild the chapter ultimately. Will they use gene-seed from the corpses of traitor legions recovered in the Siege of Terra? Will the last surviving Fist (Koorland/Slaughter) become new chapter master and take this secret to his grave?


Other fun facts from this book are the Orks have MULTIPLE death stars, the Beasts waaaagh is so strong he's basically sending off a shadow in the warp that makes worlds lose their minds, and the orks under his control are so pumped even the smallest boy is far larger than your standard orks and his nobs are described as elephants.

The Fists Exemplar are most likely going to be renamed as the Imperial Fists and take up the title. Maximus Thane, the Fists Exemplar character even has his name etched on Rogal Dorn's skeletal hand as a former chapter master of the Imperial Fists. Not to mention that the Fists Exemplar are codex-followers, whereas it's been shown so far that the old Imperial Fists were not. This reconciles the fact that modern Imperial Fists also follow the codex quite fiercely and shows that the original Imperial Fists, true to form and stubbornness, never truly followed the codex.

Considering the Chapter Master of the Fists Exemplar has his name on Dorn's hand, the Exmplar probably become the new Fists.

I still think the fact the author screwed up and had the Fists have Sus-An Membranes is a pretty big glaring error.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I still think the fact the author screwed up and had the Fists have Sus-An Membranes is a pretty big glaring error.

It's not. The original Imperial Fists had all their organs working during the Heresy. But it's not a huge surprise that the chapter that recruits from a high-radiation world might have been suffering some problems.

 Harriticus wrote:
So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

I was under the impression that the Strongest Warboss Evartm had lived during the Crusade? Didn't he come close to strangling the Emperor? Or is that all retconned now?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

I was under the impression that the Strongest Warboss Evartm had lived during the Crusade? Didn't he come close to strangling the Emperor? Or is that all retconned now?

The Ork that fought the Emperor was twice his height.

The Beast is the size of an Imperial Knight or slightly smaller.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

I was under the impression that the Strongest Warboss Evartm had lived during the Crusade? Didn't he come close to strangling the Emperor? Or is that all retconned now?

The Ork that fought the Emperor was twice his height.

The Beast is the size of an Imperial Knight or slightly smaller.

Sorry, twice the size of the Beast, or twice the size of the Emperor? And so isn't that emperor-strangling ork more deserving of the title of Strongest Warboss Evartm ?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

I was under the impression that the Strongest Warboss Evartm had lived during the Crusade? Didn't he come close to strangling the Emperor? Or is that all retconned now?

The Ork that fought the Emperor was twice his height.

The Beast is the size of an Imperial Knight or slightly smaller.

Sorry, twice the size of the Beast, or twice the size of the Emperor? And so isn't that emperor-strangling ork more deserving of the title of Strongest Warboss Evartm ?

The Ork that throttled the Emperor was twice the Emperor's height, the Beast is much, muuuuch bigger. Although given that the Ulanor Warboss' Nobs were almost like shoddy versions of Primarchs, height might not be the best way to measure it's power.

Although, the Ulanor Warboss doesn't have Ork Death Stars like the Beast.

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Ork that throttled the Emperor was twice the Emperor's height, the Beast is much, muuuuch bigger. Although given that the Ulanor Warboss' Nobs were almost like shoddy versions of Primarchs, height might not be the best way to measure it's power.

Although, the Ulanor Warboss doesn't have Ork Death Stars like the Beast.

The Beast also appears to control a much larger proportion of Orks than the Ullanor Warboss. The size of Waaghs! tends to correspond to the size and power of the Warboss in chage. Would like the how the Beast gathered his Waagh! to be explained; Orks have to promise a great fight and tend to do so by getting stuck into fights. Considering he united most of the Orks in the galaxy the Beast appearing out of nowhere with his army actually seems to suggest unorkadox (sorry but I had to) tactics.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Ork that throttled the Emperor was twice the Emperor's height, the Beast is much, muuuuch bigger. Although given that the Ulanor Warboss' Nobs were almost like shoddy versions of Primarchs, height might not be the best way to measure it's power.

Although, the Ulanor Warboss doesn't have Ork Death Stars like the Beast.

The Beast also appears to control a much larger proportion of Orks than the Ullanor Warboss. The size of Waaghs! tends to correspond to the size and power of the Warboss in chage. Would like the how the Beast gathered his Waagh! to be explained; Orks have to promise a great fight and tend to do so by getting stuck into fights. Considering he united most of the Orks in the galaxy the Beast appearing out of nowhere with his army actually seems to suggest unorkadox (sorry but I had to) tactics.

Ghaz is the beast using time travel shenanigans. That's how he suddenly shows up so huge and with a full army. Ghaz already has the pint-sized version of the beast's Waaagh! In M41. He figjts out the Octarius War for a few decades and then shunts his Waaagh! And every ork he can back to M34 and then unites his predessecors. He's already huge (dreadnought) sized, a few years of fighting and being powered by pure Waaagh! Would make him Knight sized. Plus, his name is "The Beast of Armageddon." Can't you imagine him showing up to a huge battle with M34 Imperium. Sees enemy commander and screams "Ma name iz Ghazgkull Urk Mag Thraka, but 'us can call me da Beast!"

Is the book worth a read overall?
Always thought the idea of the Beast was a cool one. Does it come off well?

It's two books in to a twelve book series. So far, yes. It's quite good.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
So I just finished Book 2 of The Beast Arises which covers the Imperium vs The Beast (strongest warboss ever basically) in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

I was under the impression that the Strongest Warboss Evartm had lived during the Crusade? Didn't he come close to strangling the Emperor? Or is that all retconned now?

The Ork that fought the Emperor was twice his height.

The Beast is the size of an Imperial Knight or slightly smaller.

Sorry, twice the size of the Beast, or twice the size of the Emperor? And so isn't that emperor-strangling ork more deserving of the title of Strongest Warboss Evartm ?

The Emperor was nearly strangled by an Ork because: 1) those Orkz had some crazy plasma tech and Emperor was recovering from deflecting an artillery plasma barrage. 2) The Emperor was powering the Astronomicon while crusading. Yes, from light-years away. The further away he was the more power it took. Its the main reason the Emperor stopped crusading and started working on the webway

I still feel like the emperor being in danger was a ruse to make Horus feel good.

 Harriticus wrote:
in mid-M32 and there's confirmed to be only 1 surviving Imperial Fist left.

The what now?

Where did this come from? I don't recall ever seeing any fluff previously that suggested the fists had a close call with oblivion like that?

Its also a little cliché no? I mean the Thousand Sons had an almost wiped out creation myth, the Ravenguard have the whole rebuild by using psycho juice after being nearly wiped out. Do we need another one?

In terms of who would replace them? well basically all the successor chapters (certainly this early in the timeline) are still really just Fists by a different name so I don't really see it as replacing,

It is sad that so many authors seem to need to make up their own OMGWTF!!!11!! event to make a splash these days, especially when its just a rehash of the same idea from somewhere else

1. The Beast Arises series was planned out in its entirety from start to finish with all authors present and with the oversight and approval of Alan Merrett.
2. If you're going to include all instances of marines nearly being wiped out, then you need to throw in the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, the Blood Angels (times 3), the Celestial Lions, and oh yeah, the Ultramarines. Marines fight and marines die. It shouldn't be surprising that there are a lot of instances where a force is nearly wiped out.
3. The Imperial Fists successors were split based on personality/outlook. Those of the Fists Exemplar were those who most readily accepted the codex astartes, whereas those who stayed as Imperial Fists, did not. Keeping in mind that the codex astartes is more than just reducing your numbers to 1,000. The Imperial Fists of M41 are second to the Ultramarines in their devotion to the codex, and so it seems plausible they the Fists Exemplar will change themselves to become the new Imperial Fists. Not to mention the current leading officer of the Fists Exemplar is a named Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists.
4. The lore in the codices are from an Imperial perspective, specifically an M41 perspective. A highly resourceful perspective but still one that's relying on information that's had five or six passes through the Ordo Redactus and 10,000 years of historical revisionism.

Didn't the blood angels go so low one time that they considered refilling the ranks from successor chapters? I kinda like this as it shows that imperium recognizes the importance of the founding legions/chapters name and history bring to the imperium is willing to fudge it to keep them going.

jareddm wrote:
1. The Beast Arises series was planned out in its entirety from start to finish with all authors present and with the oversight and approval of Alan Merrett.
2. If you're going to include all instances of marines nearly being wiped out, then you need to throw in the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, the Blood Angels (times 3), the Celestial Lions, and oh yeah, the Ultramarines. Marines fight and marines die. It shouldn't be surprising that there are a lot of instances where a force is nearly wiped out.
3. The Imperial Fists successors were split based on personality/outlook. Those of the Fists Exemplar were those who most readily accepted the codex astartes, whereas those who stayed as Imperial Fists, did not. Keeping in mind that the codex astartes is more than just reducing your numbers to 1,000. The Imperial Fists of M41 are second to the Ultramarines in their devotion to the codex, and so it seems plausible they the Fists Exemplar will change themselves to become the new Imperial Fists. Not to mention the current leading officer of the Fists Exemplar is a named Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists.
4. The lore in the codices are from an Imperial perspective, specifically an M41 perspective. A highly resourceful perspective but still one that's relying on information that's had five or six passes through the Ordo Redactus and 10,000 years of historical revisionism.

I am unclear if this is in response to my comment in its entirety but assuming it is.

1. Not sure of the relevance of how it was planned or who approved it? It still steps totally away from anything I am aware of previously. Do you know of any other reference to the fists being reduced to a single marine?
2. I wasn't going to nor did I intend to include all instances, there are enough already. I don't agree with you that it shouldn't be surprising. The thought of an entire chapter being wiped out should be surprising, a mind boggling event given the capability of even one marine. It seems to me to just be authors not wanting to find a better way to show how extreme a situation was.
3. I am not sure of the relevance of this? Are we talking M41 or M32? Whatever the criteria for the split, in M32 at least all the successor chapters were still fundamentally fists.
4. There is plenty of lore other than the codices and for something of significance to just appear seems poor writing to me.

I am not trying to knock the books, hell I haven't even read them yet, it just seems that the "Wiped out and rebuilt from nothing" is very cliché and something else better could have been thought up.

jareddm wrote:
1. The Beast Arises series was planned out in its entirety from start to finish with all authors present and with the oversight and approval of Alan Merrett.

Ugh.

Now the "knight-sized ork" makes sense. I wonder how long it will be until knight-sized orks make their way to 40k tabletop. Probably by next ork codex.

TheWanderer wrote:
1. Not sure of the relevance of how it was planned or who approved it? It still steps totally away from anything I am aware of previously. Do you know of any other reference to the fists being reduced to a single marine?

Because the logic that you're using is that an event can't happen unless it has been referenced previously in old lore, otherwise it's something that couldn't possibly happen and is bad writing. I've seen enough people make this argument and the fact that you say that it, "steps totally away from anything you were aware of previously" shows that you value that fact. Which means many players wouldn't be satisfied unless Rick Priestly himself came out and put his stamp of approval on every page.

2. I wasn't going to nor did I intend to include all instances, there are enough already. I don't agree with you that it shouldn't be surprising. The thought of an entire chapter being wiped out should be surprising, a mind boggling event given the capability of even one marine. It seems to me to just be authors not wanting to find a better way to show how extreme a situation was.

Now as you say, you haven't read the book. But would you really have preferred the Orks to kill another Avatar of Khaine? If anything this was one of the most novel approaches to showing how extreme the situation was as it shows that 1st founding chapters are not better than other chapters simply by fact of being a 1st founding. They're just as at risk as any other chapter.

3. I am not sure of the relevance of this? Are we talking M41 or M32? Whatever the criteria for the split, in M32 at least all the successor chapters were still fundamentally fists.

And you know this how exactly? This is 1,500 years after the Heresy. And my original point was that Fists successors are fundamentally different from one another because they were separated based on fundamental differences right from the 2nd founding.

4. There is plenty of lore other than the codices and for something of significance to just appear seems poor writing to me.

See point one. You only accept material that has previously been referenced. By your logic, an event that has not been previously referenced is immediately worse than one that has.

I think the whole "we aren't the true Imperial Fists" is different from a "classical" rebuilding.
Now I'm even a bit sad, as I always loved the Imperial Fist and I now they all died
And yes, I think it is refreshing to have something else than M31 or M41 (even if I love these M).
I'll definitely read these books.

Just imagine being the Chapter Master that gets to inherit the phalanx from th corpses of the failed Fists. And the armoury...

Think its only been said theres no Fists left on the Phalanx and Terra.

Who knows whats happened to the half implanted neophytes unready to take to the battle field, the vet sergeants that train them, the probably crippled priests who indoctrinate, the medics who create them.

By the end I doubt there will be many Exemplars left. So they'll be folded into the Fists. Unsure why they wouldn't be vat growing or have a supply of gene seed stashed away on the Phalanx somewhere.

Slaughter will go on to be the head honcho of the Deathwatch.

Why would they deploy the full thousand Astartes in a single battle? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever; there would be loads of Space Marines required to remain aboard Void Craft and the Phalanx to fulfill necessary duties, not to mention the fact that Astartes like to maintain garrisons upon worlds for some undefined reason that is probably completely nonsensical (as we see in the Blood Angel Omnibus).

 dusara217 wrote:
Why would they deploy the full thousand Astartes in a single battle? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever; there would be loads of Space Marines required to remain aboard Void Craft and the Phalanx to fulfill necessary duties, not to mention the fact that Astartes like to maintain garrisons upon worlds for some undefined reason that is probably completely nonsensical (as we see in the Blood Angel Omnibus).

Agree 100%

 dusara217 wrote:
Why would they deploy the full thousand Astartes in a single battle? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever; there would be loads of Space Marines required to remain aboard Void Craft and the Phalanx to fulfill necessary duties, not to mention the fact that Astartes like to maintain garrisons upon worlds for some undefined reason that is probably completely nonsensical (as we see in the Blood Angel Omnibus).

The full 1000 doesn't even include the command groups, dreadnoughts, pilots, etc. They would literally have had to field the chapter in its entirety. And that just doesn't really happen.

jareddm wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:
1. Not sure of the relevance of how it was planned or who approved it? It still steps totally away from anything I am aware of previously. Do you know of any other reference to the fists being reduced to a single marine?

Because the logic that you're using is that an event can't happen unless it has been referenced previously in old lore, otherwise it's something that couldn't possibly happen and is bad writing. I've seen enough people make this argument and the fact that you say that it, "steps totally away from anything you were aware of previously" shows that you value that fact. Which means many players wouldn't be satisfied unless Rick Priestly himself came out and put his stamp of approval on every page.

2. I wasn't going to nor did I intend to include all instances, there are enough already. I don't agree with you that it shouldn't be surprising. The thought of an entire chapter being wiped out should be surprising, a mind boggling event given the capability of even one marine. It seems to me to just be authors not wanting to find a better way to show how extreme a situation was.

Now as you say, you haven't read the book. But would you really have preferred the Orks to kill another Avatar of Khaine? If anything this was one of the most novel approaches to showing how extreme the situation was as it shows that 1st founding chapters are not better than other chapters simply by fact of being a 1st founding. They're just as at risk as any other chapter.

3. I am not sure of the relevance of this? Are we talking M41 or M32? Whatever the criteria for the split, in M32 at least all the successor chapters were still fundamentally fists.

And you know this how exactly? This is 1,500 years after the Heresy. And my original point was that Fists successors are fundamentally different from one another because they were separated based on fundamental differences right from the 2nd founding.

4. There is plenty of lore other than the codices and for something of significance to just appear seems poor writing to me.

See point one. You only accept material that has previously been referenced. By your logic, an event that has not been previously referenced is immediately worse than one that has.

I think you are jumping to a lot of conclusions about what I am talking about and what I mean.

I do value interconnection between the fluff and lore of the setting but I also appreciate that the setting is so vast and covers such a huge time period that not everything will be linked and noted before

I am more than happy that things can happen that haven't been mentioned elsewhere, my issue is with why its necessary to throw something so significant in that would have appeared somewhere else when there are many other options available and when the event that has been chosen has been used so many times before. That to me smacks of weak writing and a "it worked there so it will work here" mentality.

Where you have referenced events I am not aware of I cant really comment but I am in no way suggesting that the original chapters should be at any less risk than another although 1st founding chapters are by their nature afforded a degree of plot armour. I don't feel that "wiped out to a man" is in anyway a novel approach, as we have both mentioned its been used again and again not just in 40k fluff but in fiction generally.

Without knowing the details of how the chapter was wiped out I wont comment much on its plausibility in this circumstance but it seems odd that an entire chapter would have been put at risk (1st founding or otherwise) especially when you think how much the man power of chapters is spread out with different postings.

Could you elaborate on the differences you feel have meant that successor chapters are no longer fists? (in case there is confusion I am referring to the successor chapters to the fists)
The original comment was in reference to their differences around the view of the codex astartes, for me following that as a organisational system (for want of a better phrase) has very little bearing on differentiating you from your genetic origins.

With regards to your last point I think you missed what I meant. I was referring to the comment about the codexes being some form of propaganda, and that there is lots of other lore outside of the codexes which cant all be referenced as propaganda.

I don't mind the 'chapter wiped out' thing so much - I rather like it, in fact.

The thing is, that in M.41, no-one probably knows this happened. The Exemplars - a second founding chapter - can be quietly 'erased' from the histories and repaint their armour to match the original first founding schema.

It's already known that the list of second founding chapters is
(a) incomplete - see the Ultramarines
(b) inaccurate - the Soul Drinkers were widely believed (i.e. not just by themselves) to be something they weren't.

I suspect Slaughter will end up in the Deathwatch - we know (ish) that the Deathwatch feature as they're a big part of the 'sneak peak' artwork, and the crisis of 'The Beast' is the sort of crisis (analogous to the Horus Heresy and Reign of Blood) that would provoke the creation of the Ordo Xenos and its chamber militant.

I though the IF deep dark secret was supposed to be that they were suicidally depressed knowing they can never be Ultramarines