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I will be first to admit I have not really got into AOS but I do feel like I would like to give it a shot but I have a big concern over getting my head to buy into it. I had a lot of mental investment and attachment to the WHFB setting and to the current 40k but much of that is from the depth of the background to both. The society, the cultures, the normal everyday existence of the people that inhabit the setting.

I don't seem to be seeing that kind of depth to AOS, am I missing something obvious? Is there fluff describing the culture in the various realms? Are there normal people etching out a life there amidst the conflict or is it all just "this faction is fighting that faction to capture this thing or this place"?

Its been running now for quite some time and I really haven't seen much as to what the life is like in these places. We know about the warriors but is there nothing more?

There's incidental stuff so far, but mainly because the battles have been the big focus.

Haven't read it myself, but apparently the Fyreslayers 'tome and BL novel give the first proper background on a 'mortal' race in the realms.

AoS isn't even a year old yet, and it's obvious GW are following the timeline across all releases, so there will be expansion, just a question of when rather than if.

It is starting to appear, but you will find it more in the Black Library fiction than the army and campaign books.


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It is starting to appear, but you will find it more in the Black Library fiction than the army and campaign books.

There's not very much yet, I'd advice you wait and see at this Point.

edit: haven't read the fireslayer stuff though.

Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.

thekingofkings wrote:
Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.

but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?

TheWanderer wrote:

thekingofkings wrote:
Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.

but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?

Yes, lots of Cultures (villages, cities, kingdoms etc) have been featured in the novels, to varying degrees of detail. Most have been or are in the process of being conquered though, so understandably there hasn't been much information on how they function in peace time. Some people say the Fireslayers have been the first to really showcase that.

TheWanderer wrote:

but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?

so far all the books only talk about the fight of the stormcast against chaos and that's all. Any mention of mortals that don't follow chaos are very few, but the over all sense is that no. No culture, economy, trade, anything. They are too busy just trying to run/hide/survive at this point. What little of society that is left has devolved into a kind of scattered tribal society that doesn't trust any kind of outsiders.

The most mention of non-chaos mortals is in the 2nd audio drama, but the interaction is minimal.

Havent read the Fyerslayer book yet so cannot comment on that

BomBomHotdog wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

but has there really been ANY suggestion of a culture? People other than warriors? An economy? Trade?

so far all the books only talk about the fight of the stormcast against chaos and that's all. Any mention of mortals that don't follow chaos are very few, but the over all sense is that no. No culture, economy, trade, anything. They are too busy just trying to run/hide/survive at this point. What little of society that is left has devolved into a kind of scattered tribal society that doesn't trust any kind of outsiders.

The most mention of non-chaos mortals is in the 2nd audio drama, but the interaction is minimal.

Havent read the Fyerslayer book yet so cannot comment on that

That's not really all. I don't know if you've read all the Quick Reads as well but we get to see/hear about a number of cities and kingdoms with normal people in them. It's just that most of them are on the brink of being conquered by Chaos and so the human characters tend to die pretty fast...

Maybe your instincts aren't satisfied with such obvious escapist habits, maybe try learning more about people who actually do exist?

If you are looking for detailed information of the people not participating in battles from the campaign and battletome books you will find very little to no information about them.

Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.

 Mymearan wrote:
That's not really all. I don't know if you've read all the Quick Reads as well but we get to see/hear about a number of cities and kingdoms with normal people in them. It's just that most of them are on the brink of being conquered by Chaos and so the human characters tend to die pretty fast...

Ah, I had forgotten about the quick reads that came out. I'll have to check them out now.

What's important to remember is that AoS isn't even a year old yet and there's a lot GW can do to expand on the overall background of the game.

I haven't read anything past Gates of Azyr, Black Rift 1st short story and reading Fyreslayers anthology now, four short stories. I've heard mixed things so I'm not challenging anyone but I am genuinely curious about the guys who don't like it as to why. It's an evolving discussion.

Truth be told, I didn't care for any of the fluff at first but that was probably because it is such a departure from a world I knew so well and have been reading material from for 18-19 years, plus not playing it as often as 8th kept the fluff from sticking in my head and being reinforced through actual playing it out on the table. I'm fortunate to have a friend with all the AoS fiction I can borrow a I go along but finding unsatisfied readers is not too uncommon so I'm just curious as to what problems arise in the fiction.

I am like you Original Poster. Can't get into it because for me the fluff is not there. What about the peoples? What about the inhabitants who live in all the realms.

I don't want to buy $100 books to read fluff that is just about Stormcast Eternals because they don't interest me. I want to know about the realms and all that.

But the starter boxes have helped me get into it a bit. Funny it's not the Chaos or Sigmar that is getting me in Age of Sigmar but the nice priced sets.

Sadly I don't see any starter sets for Chaos or Sigmar or Dwarves. That might have gotten me into Sigmar more but alas it seems GW wants us paying full price for those.

Davor wrote:
I am like you Original Poster. Can't get into it because for me the fluff is not there. What about the peoples? What about the inhabitants who live in all the realms.

The Fyreslayers novel has quite a bit about this, from what MongooseMatt said.

I don't want to buy $100 books to read fluff that is just about Stormcast Eternals because they don't interest me. I want to know about the realms and all that.

Unfortunately, you're going to be hearing a lot about the Stormcast Eternals because as of this point only the Realm of Azyr(where Sigmar and the Stormcast Eternals are based) was really spared the wrath of Chaos when it became resurgent. Right now? We've got a world in flux. The Stormcast are effectively "liberating" the various Realms, or at least making contact with the holdouts present in the other Realms.

But the starter boxes have helped me get into it a bit. Funny it's not the Chaos or Sigmar that is getting me in Age of Sigmar but the nice priced sets.

Yeah, the Start Collecting sets are nice but far from comprehensive. And if you're restricting yourself simply to armies that are within those, you're missing the point of AoS.

Sadly I don't see any starter sets for Chaos or Sigmar or Dwarves. That might have gotten me into Sigmar more but alas it seems GW wants us paying full price for those.

Well, yeah? If you want to do Chaos or Stormcast, then you have the starter set which even if you're buying it for one army is still a friggin' great deal. Dwarves have JUST came out--you're not going to get an $85 "Start Collecting Set" before they even have a few months to sell the individual sets.

There's also no starter set for any of the Elves, Empire, Skaven, Beastmen, or Bretonnians.

If anyone wants a quick read on the 'normal' people of the Realms, this one goes into some depth on one area:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/aos/whaos-qu-re/daemon-of-the-deep-ebook.html

Also quite a good story, recommended

I am sick today. I ment to say beside the starting AoS set, (great deal as said) like the other box sets GW is offering in the $250+ I don't think there is any savings there.

Also just because something just comes out doesn't mean GW can't give out great discounts as well.

GW isn't giving details because it's afraid other companies will release models before them the whole chapter house case is why they killed wfb in the first place it was to generic for them to do anything in court.

For the same reason 40k armies got renamed.

They won't release aelf artwork before the armies out as they are afraid a third party will beat them to market.

So you get a world bereft of details.

will definately wait for something other than the sigmarines. they are imo the absolute worst part of the story. I couldnt force myself through gates of azyr, it was just so awfully written and the story just terrible. they should take the name warhammer off of this and just let it die a dignified death instead of this.

I think you have to assume that while in theory all the legacy armies' societies have been quietly continuing their existence in hidden parts of the orbital space station, eventually GW will revise everything.

For example the Lizard Men have changed from being a bunch of Mayan/Aztec-inspired meso-American dudes with dinosaurs to a magic space-borne teleporting strike force that lives on sort of craft worlds or perhaps O'Neill space colonies orbitting the orbital space station.

I thought lizard men were good demons remembered into existence by the slaan.

I do recommend the audio drama series I personally think its the best audio story black library has done so far. Yes it has stormcast but you really feel for the lord celestant and the unreliable vampire at the end.

Oh and nagash is awesome as always.

I'm half way through the Fyreslayers novel atm and the first story was awesome. The second wasn't bad, however neither one had anything about other people, they mention other lodges but nothing more so far.

thekingofkings wrote:
Its showing in fits and starts, its just really bad. poorly written and uninspiring. Also a big departure from previous warhammer. I really wouldnt classify AoS as a successor to warhammer but more of a complete retcon with the same characters and modifications to previous belief especially the part where the winds of magic somehow turned into complete "mortal" realms instead of just being aspects of the realms of chaos.

I get that people aren't going to see eye to eye on everything, but I think people are letting emotion cloud judgment when it comes to assessing the quality of the new fiction. I read a lot of the Warhammer World fiction and while I certainly enjoyed it I would never describe it as high quality. I put most of the Age of Sigmar fiction in that category too- interesting, enjoyable, but nothing I'd get confused for really high quality fiction. That's ok. Sometimes you want to watch The Seventh Seal, and sometimes you want to watch The Fast and the Furious.

But I just don't see the drop in quality that some have proclaimed.

And on a side note- I'm one story in to the Slayer fiction, and it is pretty darn cool.

I can see where you are coming from, but I came into this wanting real hard to love AoS, but there is a massive disparity in quality, comparing ADB to gav thorpe level bad, and the appalling amount of errors that any editor worthwhile should have caught, even ignoring that, the story is just weak, far too weak for the talent that GW has available.

Might have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm not going to throw a fit if you don't like it.

For me, some of my favorite was the advent fiction, but that isn't uncommon for me with Black Library fiction. I think the "cool idea, okay execution" level at which I tend to rate Black Library works at its best in shorter stories. Godless, Demon of the Deep, and The Unending Storm were highlights.

I listened to the audio dramas too, and though I don't think that format was for me, it was cool to get a glimpse of societies in the Realm of Death.

You know what would be nice?

If there were an easy point to get in and start reading AoS fluff to get a general feel for the setting and all the faces in it.

There should have been a whole page at least for each race in the first campaign book to give a solid overview, not that two page spread that was mostly artwork and a little blurb about each of the 'forces of X' crap.

If I could pick up a novel for a reasonable price and just read it as a self contained story that introduces me to the setting, in a format I can actually read, I'd probably grab it to give it a shot. As far as I am aware though everything GW has put out is hardback so they will be like $40 (AUD) books that look pretty on the shelf but aren't practical as a cheap pulp read (as I expect from any GW or BL stories). If not, it won't be a novel it will be audiodramas or e book short stories I can't read off a real page. I haven't looked too closely at what actual books there are, the slayer ones might be more what I am after but the sigmarines ones all seem to be part of an ongoing narrative as well, if I were invested in the fluff I am sure I'd love that* but I'm not yet invested.


(*I lie, I was very invested in the Heresy series and then BL started throwing out content left right and center with novellas, audiobooks, short stories, e books, limited editions... the shotgun approach to releases killed all interest. I can't imagine myself really enjoying the narrative of AoS even if it were an AMAZING story just because of the formatting.)

Oh, how I can dream for a Dan Abnett AoS book.

The narrative so far is told through the eyes of the Stormcast who are retreading into the Mortal Realms for the first time in an age. That means we have basically no details on anything until the Stormcast encounter it, and it does make the world bland and empty.

It is getting better though.

The Fyreslayer battletome has a lodge of fyreslayers attempt to slay a vampire queen in her dungeon after having their services bought by the "gloom tribes".

- cool!

Battleplans talk of cities (The Ritual) Supply Lines (A Forlorn Hope) and Necropolises filled with treasure (Ambush at the Cursed Temple)

- cool!

I do agree that a page dedicated to each faction would have been great, and that GW horde their ideas with fear of them being translated into miniatures by 3rd parties to the point of stifling the background.

But, it's getting better :-)



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akai wrote:
Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.

It never went massively in depth in the army books - but it certainly painted a vivid picture of a world beyond the battles. Here is an opening paragraph from the 8th edition Empire Army book:

"The Empire stretches from the icy Sea of Claws in the north to the soaring Black Mountains in the south. It is a land covered by dense forests and surrounded by mountain ranges, all infested by murderous brigands, foul mutants and ravenous monsters. Isolated against this treacherous backdrop are prosperous cities, where skilled craftsmen and affluent merchants trade their wares, and where brave soldiers and noble statesmen work to safeguard the Empire's future. Beneath this veneer of sophistication, however, the Empire is a brooding land full of ignorance and superstition, where fearful peasants clutch talismans to ward off evil sorceries and appease the gods of old. In stark contrast to the wealthy districts are slums, rife with thieves, vagabonds and heretical cults that prey on their fellow man. All aspects of human endeavor can be found within the Empire, and for every noble hero that walks the streets, there is a murderous cutthroat lurking not far away."

That's just one paragraph - but I'm pretty sure it paints a world more alive than the entire Mortal Realms as of yet. Contrast that with Azyrheim and the Celestial Realm. What do we really know of the people that live there? Are their nobles? Slums? Craftsmen? Peasants? Trade? Brigands? Wares? Superstitions? Wealth or the lack of? - I don't think we want much from the AoS fluff, just a little to set our imaginations on fire like the above paragraph does - heck, reading it gives me countless ideas for scenarios, modelling projects and stories - it also makes me pine for the Old World a little, if I am honest.

It's six months in we should have a much better idea of what the make up of the new universe is.

Part of AoS failing is no one knowing how their armies will turn out.

Your not going to spend money on stuff that no longer exists in the new game.

 Bottle wrote:

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akai wrote:
Does Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually go into depth on economy. trade, and what else not-related to those participating in the war? I can see the RPG supplements or novels going into those aspects, but that type of information seems rather slim in the army books and supplements directly related to the tabletop war game.

It never went massively in depth in the army books - but it certainly painted a vivid picture of a world beyond the battles. Here is an opening paragraph from the 8th edition Empire Army book:

"The Empire stretches from the icy Sea of Claws in the north to the soaring Black Mountains in the south. It is a land covered by dense forests and surrounded by mountain ranges, all infested by murderous brigands, foul mutants and ravenous monsters. Isolated against this treacherous backdrop are prosperous cities, where skilled craftsmen and affluent merchants trade their wares, and where brave soldiers and noble statesmen work to safeguard the Empire's future. Beneath this veneer of sophistication, however, the Empire is a brooding land full of ignorance and superstition, where fearful peasants clutch talismans to ward off evil sorceries and appease the gods of old. In stark contrast to the wealthy districts are slums, rife with thieves, vagabonds and heretical cults that prey on their fellow man. All aspects of human endeavor can be found within the Empire, and for every noble hero that walks the streets, there is a murderous cutthroat lurking not far away."

That's just one paragraph - but I'm pretty sure it paints a world more alive than the entire Mortal Realms as of yet. Contrast that with Azyrheim and the Celestial Realm. What do we really know of the people that live there? Are their nobles? Slums? Craftsmen? Peasants? Trade? Brigands? Wares? Superstitions? Wealth or the lack of? - I don't think we want much from the AoS fluff, just a little to set our imaginations on fire like the above paragraph does - heck, reading it gives me countless ideas for scenarios, modelling projects and stories - it also makes me pine for the Old World a little, if I am honest.

The quick and simple reply to address your questions - it has a little bit of everything you wrote.

I will quote two short passages -
Azyrheim, Last of the Free Cities "...it is the last great bastion of Order, a walled city, renowned not just for its size and splendour, but also for its citizens. There, communities of mankind, aelf, duardin, and many others dwell. Many came as refugees, fleeing their own embattled realms before Sigmar commanded the Gates of Azyr to be shut. Others trace their line of descent from times more ancient still, bitter remnants of the world that was displaced out of home and time. Although Azyrheim's citizens come from different nations, they are united by a common hatred of Chaos, and by dreams of one day reclaiming their lost lands."

The Defiant Few ..."the mortal people were given free rein to form nations within star-spanning Azyr, and many clung to lost cultures and traditions. Those who had long worshipped Sigmar gathered together into religious war-tribes, wishing to do violence in his name. Dour duardin laboured to construct grand fortresses alongside exiled aelf artisans and human masons, all animosities put aside in the name of survival-that, and the everlasting defiance of the Chaos Gods."

For me, there is enough fluff presented to get the general/idea and direction of the story/setting. It was enough information that I decided that I don't care much for the Stormcast Eternals theme revolving bitterness and revenge. A matter of taste and not necessarily due to a lack of fluff, imo. I can understand people wanting to be immersed with a game's setting and story. For me though, if I want to be immersed into a fantasy setting, novels not tied to selling a game does that for me. Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Age of Sigmar games, was first and foremost, a way that allowed me to play generic fantasy war games in my own homebrew setting--mix and matching different fantasy settings.