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Hey there, I played my first tourney this weekend at my FLGS, in preparation for some of the guys going to the Las Vegas Open. I was told in my 2nd round that gauss' auto-wound on 6 rule doesn't apply to MCs, is that true? Second, is cheating pretty prevalent in these kind of things? I'm pretty solid on the rules for my own codex, and didn't come to win at all costs or anything, just for fun, so I was a little taken aback by this guy's assertion that I didn't know my own rules

Who were you playing and where did it take place ?

6's auto-wound with Gauss weapons.

When that happens to you, and you're reasonably certain of the rules, you should just open up your codex and say... "Where does it say that?"

Gauss absolutely wounds MCs on 6s =X (and glances vehicles where it doesn't penetrate). There is no SR for MCs that gives them immunity to gauss, and no SR for gauss that makes it ineffective to MCs...

You could always check the rule book instead of taking peoples words for it.

as well provide rules to people when its requested as well.

people can get really beardy when it gets competitive so vigilant. not saying anyone will but it doesn't hurt to be aware.

Unfortunately, lots of people wish things were true to the point of uttering that they are. Maybe he was thinking that because a Sniper Rifle on a Gargantuan only wounds on a 6... Maybe that somehow makes the "6 only" less effective yet?

But that's an extrapolation that has zero basis in the rules. I think this was him hoping. In the future, call a TO. Preferably on who actually knows the rules. That can ALSO prove to be a problem...

This is why I dislike tournaments. People will say and do anything if it gives them an advantage.

I've heard of someone managing to convince an opponent and TO that SitW affects all units.

 Frozocrone wrote:
This is why I dislike tournaments. People will say and do anything if it gives them an advantage.

I've heard of someone managing to convince an opponent and TO that SitW affects all units.

Well... I think that is cutting off ones nose to spite ones face though. Going to tournaments guarantees you three games and 95% of the time those games end as they should have. And yeah that's even despite some wishful thinking.

I do get the frustration with a bad opponent. Gawd knows I play about 150 games a year of Warhammer 40K (JUST that game alone) plus Flames of War and X-Wing and StarTrek: Attack Wing and... So I am exposed to this a lot more than the average bear. But I wouldn't avoid tournaments just because I might run into a bad apple. I don't hate losing enough to do that. I've lost a game here and there to slow play too, another Tournament no no. But guys like that get WATCHED the next time. I run tournaments at four different stores and can tell you that I have personally taken peoples name out of prize consideration for slow play and once for an illegal list. You think you're getting away with it, and then someone elses name gets called. Weird how that happened. But if you're going to cheat, don't think no one is noticing. And if you're the victim, make sure you tell someone or you're JUST a victim.


Bad T.O.'s can be a problem but they do a thankless job so if you think you can do better, DO better. organize stuff elsewhere and see who comes. Then you'll know if its true. I know I did and voila! Suddenly things changed, because people were much fonder of how I did it than how the "other guy" did it. Sometimes you just have to be a leader when this stuff happens to you and not let it beat you. Not going to tournaments anymore is letting it beat you. Don't. Get in there and fight!

 Jancoran wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
This is why I dislike tournaments. People will say and do anything if it gives them an advantage.

I've heard of someone managing to convince an opponent and TO that SitW affects all units.

Well... I think that is cutting off ones nose to spite ones face though. Going to tournaments guarantees you three games and 95% of the time those games end as they should have. And yeah that's even despite some wishful thinking.

I do get the frustration with a bad opponent. Gawd knows I play about 150 games a year of Warhammer 40K (JUST that game alone) plus Flames of War and X-Wing and StarTrek: Attack Wing and... So I am exposed to this a lot more than the average bear. But I wouldn't avoid tournaments just because I might run into a bad apple. I don't hate losing enough to do that. I've lost a game here and there to slow play too, another Tournament no no. But guys like that get WATCHED the next time. I run tournaments at four different stores and can tell you that I have personally taken peoples name out of prize consideration for slow play and once for an illegal list. You think you're getting away with it, and then someone elses name gets called. Weird how that happened. But if you're going to cheat, don't think no one is noticing. And if you're the victim, make sure you tell someone or you're JUST a victim.


Bad T.O.'s can be a problem but they do a thankless job so if you think you can do better, DO better. organize stuff elsewhere and see who comes. Then you'll know if its true. I know I did and voila! Suddenly things changed, because people were much fonder of how I did it than how the "other guy" did it. Sometimes you just have to be a leader when this stuff happens to you and not let it beat you. Not going to tournaments anymore is letting it beat you. Don't. Get in there and fight!

have an exalt my friend ^_^

so many people will talk the talk, about what to do, etc but not too many have the wherewithal to take over and put their money where their mouth is (in my humble experience of course )

Why wasn't the TO called over to resolve the dispute? That's why tournaments have TOs in the first place. I can't believe how many accusations of cheating I hear without any mention of calling the TO over. If your opponent cheats, you realize it as it's happening and you don't say anything to the TO, I have a hard time having any sympathy.

Any time any opponent says something about a rule that you don't think is correct calmly ask them to open up a book or pdf and show it to you. If they refuse, call over the TO and explain the situations. The burden of proof is on them to show that their interpretations is correct.

 Frozocrone wrote:
This is why I dislike tournaments. People will say and do anything if it gives them an advantage.

I've heard of someone managing to convince an opponent and TO that SitW affects all units.

People do this in so called 'friendly' games too mate. It's not a 'tournament' thing so much as a 'poor sportsmanship' thing.

The vast majority of tournament players are, like the vast majority of gamers as a whole, generally ok and pretty decent folks. That said, our community is not one that is immune from douchebaggery - there are people that will cheat and have no qualms about it, and no comprehension of 'sportsmanship'. Don't call them 'tournament players', because that is dishonest, incorrect, and insult to the majority of tournament players thst are decent minded and play fair.

Cheaters exist. But these people exist everywhere.

 Frozocrone wrote:
This is why I dislike tournaments. People will say and do anything if it gives them an advantage.

I've heard of someone managing to convince an opponent and TO that SitW affects all units.

As others have said, the vast majority of players are great people and are there to have fun. I wouldn't avoid tournaments for fear of one bad incident. You're missing out on a lot of positive experiences for fear of a few bad ones.

Most people don't know the rules well enough to cheat on purpose. So they think they're being certain, but just happen to be wrong. Plus, it's easy to confuse the rules from different editions.

If you're not sure if what your opponent is telling you is true, just ask them to point it out in the rule book. If they're right, you just learned something. If they're wrong, they just learned something. Win win.

Veryance wrote:
Second, is cheating pretty prevalent in these kind of things? ... I was a little taken aback by this guy's assertion that I didn't know my own rules

I've never seen cheating at a tourney. I'm not saying it never happens, but if you know your rules it's pretty hard to do. It's not like people say "Look it's Elvis!" and then move their models another inch.

What happens a lot more often is either forgetting rules. At the last NOVA I went to, in the first round my opponent clearly was wrong on the rules, but I knew it would not matter to the outcome of the game so I let it slide. Sometimes that's the best solution, since asking a judge can take time from your game.

Even some of the best players sometimes forget the rules too. The amount of knowledge you have to keep in your head to be really up to speed on everything in 40k is huge. Occasionally people make minor mistakes. If it does not matter to the game, just look it up after the game and show them. Usually people are really cool with being corrected.

If it will effect your game, then go ask a judge. It's OK to say "Can you show me that rule?", and "I'd like to ask a judge that". There is a difference between the guy who asks a judge every turn for a specific rule, and that person who says "Are you sure of that? Lets double check" when it really matters.

Sometimes even when in mid-table obscurity you will find that one guy who is TFG and really 'MUST WIN' instead of having a fun time playing 40k. When that happens, I will tell them that they are being a dick and the game does not matter, so we should have fun. If they continue being a dick, I just pack my models and give them full points. My ego does not demand that I score high to know that I'm a good player. I suggest the same.

 Toofast wrote:
Why wasn't the TO called over to resolve the dispute? That's why tournaments have TOs in the first place. I can't believe how many accusations of cheating I hear without any mention of calling the TO over. If your opponent cheats, you realize it as it's happening and you don't say anything to the TO, I have a hard time having any sympathy.

Dont be harsh, the guy was trying to be cool about it. I think the take away though is that calling a TO does not mean you HATE your opponent or they are bad people.

I've been wrong before and I don't mind it. I get better for it. When you have played 3rd-7th Edition, some old rules CAN get stuck in ones head. the thing to do though is to definitely involve the TO nd say (in a nice way) "could you help US out. WE were wondering if there was a rule that might..." Instead of "this d-bag right here is a d-bag lying d-bag who d-bags d-baggrs".

Probably two ways you can do it. Probably one is better than the other. It isnt that there are NEVER D-bags. Ive blown my fuse RECENTLY about one. But I'd say even if THEIR intention is to be one, dont join them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Veryance wrote:
Second, is cheating pretty prevalent in these kind of things? ... I was a little taken aback by this guy's assertion that I didn't know my own rules

I've never seen cheating at a tourney. I'm not saying it never happens, but if you know your rules it's pretty hard to do. It's not like people say "Look it's Elvis!" and then move their models another inch..

This happened to me at a major tournament against a major player. Yip. And he was a very well known player too, He's actually run big events. But it is so dang rare.

Went to tie my shoes and when I came back he was magically in charge range. Well well well... Lost a unit and he had himself an objective.

So instead of going for the win (which I had an OUTSIDE shot at if a charge went right but would risk the loss) I tied the game intentionally on him. Hehehe. He wasn't super happy with me. So he says "we should play this out and see who wins so one of us can move on to the finals!". I politely said "We just did play it out. We both win. I'm happy with it".

I ended with four good opponents out of five. Pretty cool weekend that surrounded it. Other than that lack of character at the end my game with him was good too.

I've rarely encountered intentional cheating cause it's just not worth it. Most 40k communities are fairly small, and once you have that reputation it's very hard to get ride of it.

On the other hand I've had some pretty long and draw out disputes on how rules work simply because GWs rule set is't the tightest.

cheating and disagreeing is of course two different things.

Very true, though I've had a few times were the disagreement was closer to wish listing than interpreting how the rules work.

The simple answer is, call a judge, all tournaments should have a judge that knows most rules. That way not only are you getting an unbiased answer but you're also letting the judge hear the claim being made by the player, which makes a record of potential cheaty-face rules wiggling.

The biggest help to cheaters, is when players handle things themselves instead of calling a judge. Judges at events should have a log of issues warning and such too.

My question is why don't you have your rules and codex on hand when playing? Simple really. Prove it. If you believed you were right, show him. If he was correct he would show you.

There are times when a rule is debated, you look quickly for an answer and if you can't find it roll for it. When I use to play, a person wanted his Space Marines to go through a wall. We said you can't do it. He said he could. He couldn't find it in the rule book so we played it as you need to go through a door when going through a building.

Low and behold a few weeks later I found the rule he was talking about. Any unit can go through a building at least in 5th edition, no need for door or window. Thing is, if you can't back up what you say then you are wrong.

So why didn't you have your rule book and codex on you to prove your point?

With something like Gauss not affecting MC. The solution to that is simple to ask them to show you the rule in some sort of GW book. If they can't then it doesn't go their way. Never play people from memory/battlescribe.

General rule with any sort of attempted cheating:

If it sounds suspicious, ask for the rulebook. If they can't produce it (most common is that they don't bring a rulebook) tell them that, no, it's not how it goes unless they can produce said rules. If they can't be bothered to bring a rulebook (even if it's just a digital edition), their word is worthless.

I once played in a tournament where the two guys in charge of the event were also playing. The tables were supposed to be random, but for some reason they seemed to be perfectly suited for their extra-shooty armies. I also had a strong suspicion that their lists were slightly over the points limit.

I also found it strange that in any ranked event, tournament, or campaign those two would never face each other until the last round to determine a winner.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I once played in a tournament where the two guys in charge of the event were also playing. The tables were supposed to be random, but for some reason they seemed to be perfectly suited for their extra-shooty armies. I also had a strong suspicion that their lists were slightly over the points limit.

I also found it strange that in any ranked event, tournament, or campaign those two would never face each other until the last round to determine a winner.

We USED to have a local gaming club whose members openly told me they NEVER give anyone above a 7 on sportsmanship. I was like WHUUUUUT? they kind of dissolved over time but that was kind of not awesome and i CERTAINLY had angst about playing them.

 Toofast wrote:

Went to tie my shoes and when I came back he was magically in charge range. Well well well... Lost a unit and he had himself an objective.

Wow...lame. Suck man. Sounds like you did the right thing though

I've had non-tournament games when my 18" guns were out of range, they move up 6", then make a 9" charge or so.

I had one local guy who I always had to measure "to see if I could shoot", so when he'd claim the Charge Range was more than that - 6" from moving, I could "wonder" how charge range is so short.

But that was also the guy who had a DP who had, every single game, Gift, Iron Arm, and usually Endurance as powers, along with 2+ Armor and +1T (DoTzeech, of course).

He did complain that I always got some of the powers I wanted, though. However, with 2 ML3 rolling on tables where I really wanted 4-5 of the powers, that's bound to happen.

In a meta, you kinda learn who is who. But with the movement, almost every casual player has a "Gamers Inch". Some can be mere milimeters, others seem to be half a foot. Even among the honest ones.

Rules disputes tend to be incorrect or ignorance, not trying to pull a fast one.

I did, though, once have someone make up a rule ("I challenged the Orks, so Asurmen can't accept!", at a team tourny). The game was going long, so we needed to be fast. But once I made it clear that I was willing to take the time to discuss it, he dropped it. And it made the difference - giving us the win (some Ork nob with a Choppa isn't going to do 2 wounds to a 2+ rerollable, but with t3 and no invuln, Asurmen cut him down).

Which was good, because it had been an uphill slog all game.

In my experience cheating is not common, but people sometimes make mistakes with the rules because they are so complicated, extensive, and often difficult to understand.

I remember trying to cope with using Termagants and Tervigons in 5th edition. It required checking up to eight different pages of rules in two different books to do practically anything at all. This is a less than ideal bit of editoring organisation for people who don't have time to memorise every aspect of their army by heart.