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Hello, everyone!

I'm relatively new to the tabletop, however I've been a very long fan of W40K. A few of my friends are relatively involved in it, however I would classify them as less than competitive.

I'm hoping to make this lost competitive, worrying less about any cheese factors or anything along those lines. I'll have other things for casual games.

Now, I've found this list from Reecius, at Front Line Gaming, and was hoping to get some opinions on it, or ideas on how to streamline the over effectiveness of it.
( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/669174.page )

Forgive me if xposting lists isn't allowed, I'm relatively new here.




Reece’s list:

Raven Guard 1850pts

Talon Strike Force Description Size Cost

Pinion Battle Demi-Company

Chaplain Raven’s Fury x 1 105
>Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta x5 90
>Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta x5 90
>Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta x5 90
>Assault Squad M.Bombs x5 90
>Devstator Squad C.Melta x10 150
>D.Pod – x1 35
>Scouts M.Bombs x5 60
>Scouts M.Bombs x5 60
>Scouts M.Bombs x5 60


Shadowstrike Kill Team
>Scouts – x5 55
>Scouts – x5 55
>Vanguard - x10 260 (J.Packs, Fist x 2, L.Claws x 2)


Skyhammer Annihilation Force
>Assault Squad Vet Sarge, P.Axe x5 110
>Assault Squad Vet Sarge, P.Axe x5 110
>Devastator Squad H.Bolter x 4 x10 180
>Drop Pod – x1 35
>Devastator Squad H.Bolter x 4 x10 180
>Drop Pod – x1 35
Totals 99 1850



This seems to make great use of the Skyhammer and Shadowstrike, both of them working together to deep strike early and tear things apart. However, it seems like a lot of overall Devastators, and a lack of upgrades on the units.

I'm super happy to end up fielding this list, but if anyone would help streamline id to be even a little more competitive I would be incredibly grateful.

Edit: I'll add it doesn't have to remain entirely the same. I'm open to changes, and cost of the army overall is not an issue. Just want that sweet, sweet Raven Guard goodness.

That is very difficult to read and to be honest looks a horrible mess. I don't really see much threat in it at all. No grav is a huge mistake with marines as it is by far their best weapon. A single wraithknight runs over this list let alone the 4-5 you could see in an Eldar list at this point level. Imperial knights likewise run over you as does any invisistar, Tau interceptor your face off. You've no AA too. So I don't really see a single competitive build you're favourite against.

I appreciate the direct and to the point reply.

That was the concern, the overall the list may not be effective against meta-level combatants.

Do you have an suggestions? I'm fine with leaving it as "This won't work." but my overall goal is to receive some possibly direct feedback on what changes can be made.

Edit: Changed the format of the list in an attempts to make it less difficult to read/comprehend.

What do you want from the list? How do you want to win? Start with that. Then try to cover as many of the known competitive builds as possible (Imperial Knights, Gargantuan Creatures, Tau coordinated firepower, Flying circus (Eldar, Nid and Daemon variants), invisistars, pod alphastrike etc). Then I can try to help. If you're unsure how to deal with a specific build (or builds) start with the first 2 cover as much as possible from the 3rd going and point out which builds you don't now how to deal with.

I started the talon strike force with shadowstrike and skyhammer as well, though my skyhammer was kitted to the 9's with multi meltas, grav cannons and heavy bolters to deal with bigger targets and I found it really didn't live up to it's namesake. Not to mention costing upwards of 600 points! If you run this army it is very, "did everything happen how I needed it to? Or not...?" You need everything to go your way, all game long to win and it felt a little lackluster to me. It's not an army that'll just be able to stick around and slug it out. If things don't go your way it's going to go downhill fast...The batrep he uses this list on he actually beats tau with, thought the list didn't feature a stormsurge which would have just slaughtered his list.

I'm moving in the way of admech allies. Using the AdMech holy requisitioner formation I'll no scatter drop some grav cannon kataphrons and torsion cannon breachers close up to the enemy for some pain. If I'm fighting interceptor heavy Tau I'll probably rethink that choice as they will just house them before I get to shoot...then using skitarii for an onager with icarus array for my anti-air.

Not going to be perfect, but it'll be fun and still raven guard-y which is what I want.

Check out the new article on the Pinion Demi-battle company they just put up on FLG's site. It'll open your eyes to the possibilities with the Talon Strike force. Ignores cover scouts, bringing units on from outflank, shrouded turn 1. All Raven Guard, all gravy.

My 2 cents boss. Hope It helped a touch.

My goal is to, hopefully, take advantage with the Strategic advantage the Raven Guard seem to have with their Reserve Shenanigans and ability to Deepstrike, both through the Shadowstrike Kill Team and with assistance from with Skyhammer formation.

Enjoyment wise, the idea of swooping in on my opponent after taking advantage of their positioning sounds very satisfying. However, winning typically trumps that idea so I am partial to changing my goals.

I apologize for not being more direct in my questioning, let me break it down further.

1.) Does anyone believe the Skyhammer, Shadowstrike, or even more Broadly the Pinion Demi and Talon Strike Force, or competitively viable -- using the above list as a reference point.

2.) Expanding upon the former, if viable, what do you believe the proper set up in a vague setting against potential armies? (If for example an army may field tau, eldar, and nids in a multiple round tournament.)

Ex.

Shadowstrike Kill Team

5x Scouts, Camo Cloaks
5x Scouts, Camo Cloaks

5x Veteran Vanguard with combinations of StormShields and Thunderhammers
5x Veteran Vanguard with Powerfists or Lightning Claws

3.) Overall, Marines appear to require (or should heavily understand they should take) a decent amount of Grav weapons to handle large creatures. How may you believe, using the above list as an example, one could add more of those weapons to the required troops and remain effective?

Essentially, to reiterate, my overall goal is to win. If I can do this while using to stealth and manipulation route, that is likely preferred. The fluff is nice. However, if the Formations and Detachments I have given as an example are more of a NEGATIVE than a POSITIVE, I am happy to scrap them and work towards a stronger list.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main armies I will be competing against are two of my friends, one of which is Grey Knights, the Other is a Tzeentch psyker Heavy Thousand Sons army.

GK player tends to Field what appears to be a "normal" set up, using Shunting Dreadknights and Invisibility to defeat his opponent.

His general weakness here appears to be a lack of overall units, and as a result his positioning on the board can be exploited. This is one of the reasons I was taken by Raven Guard-- the possible ability to exploit that perceived weakness.

Obviously, the list I posted above lacks any anti-psyker units. I had considered either adding an Assassin or an Inquisitory Detatchment for some defense/offense toward that.

The same sentiment is true toward the Chaos Player.

Beyond that, again noting the list above, it seems to lack variety beyond naked lists using BoltGuns and some Melta -- Does anyone have any ideas on how to further improve their loadouts to better cover effective units?

I believe it would likely work against the Chaos Player, who fields a larger amount of lesser units (flamers, horrors, etc) with then a number of Thousand Sons and 2 Defilers. However, I could be wrong.

I hope I'm providing the information that has been suggested I provide, and not asking too much in the way of criticism or assistance. Thank you for your time and your replies.

To answer 1) I think yes this army, the Talon Strike Force, can be competitive and WIN. Do I think that pairing it with the Shadowstrike Kill team and Skyhammer Annihilation Force is the best way to do this? Personally, no.
2) I run a Callidus assassin with my Talon Strike Force to take the pressure off my units, but the assassins are one bad lascannon shot away from getting smoked in one shot. I'd say that in your meta with the GK player that a Culexus assassin might feature better. I do hear/read that survivability is an issue for this unit, so I'd get him a rhino or drop pod to get him where/when you need him.
3) I am running 2 of the 3 tactical units in the Pinion company with grav cannons and outflanking them, which could literally be a thorn in my opponent's side. Skyhammer is a great source of grav, but the cannons are so CRAZY expensive points wise I hesitate to run a unit with 4 of them. I would spread the love out with 2 in skyhammer (if you were wanting to still run that) and then 2 in the tactical units with outflank.

I have tried the Raptor wing, which I find to be a good formation to pair with the Pinion company, the shadowstrike kill team (which I ran all claws and they did some decent work for me) and the skyhammer annihilation force. Skyhammer did it's job, but I didn't feel like it was worth the 600 point investment.

Another suggestion I have for you is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. 3 Tactical units in drop pods along with a speeder that get some good buffs when in their "designated target" zone. this is another way to bring more grav to the party with out investing as much as skyhammer annihilation force.

My 2 cents, I hope I answered your questions and didn't create too many more, LOL.

Victoris Aut Mortis. The RG are super fun dude, all around WIN.

After taking some of the feedback into consideration, I've come up with this list. If anyone has feedback, I'm happy to take it.


1850

Talon Strike Force

[Pinion Battle Demi-Company]

Chaplain, Ravens Fury 115

Scouts (5x Camo Cloaks, 5x Snipers) 70

Scouts (5x Camo Cloaks, 5x Snipers) 70

Tactical Squad (Grav Cannon and Grav-Amp, Plasma Gun) 4x Marines 130
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Plasma)
Tactical Squad (Grav Cannon and Grav-Amp, Plasma Gun) 4x Marines 130
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Plasma)
Tactical Squad (Grav Cannon and Grav-Amp, Plasma Gun) 4x Marines 130
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Plasma)

Devastator Squad (4x Lascannon, 4x Marines) 150
-- Sergeant (Bolt Pistol, Boltgun)

Drop Pod 35

Assault Squad (5x Jump Packs) 85

Drop Pod 35


[Shadowstrike Kill Team ]

5x Scouts (Camo Cloaks, Melta Bomb) 70
5x Scouts (Camo Cloaks, Melta Bomb) 70

5x Veteran Vanguard (Lightning Claws) 150
5x Veteran Vanguard (Lightning Claws) 150


[Storm Wing]

1x Stormraven Gunship (Hurricane Bolters) 230

2x Stormtalon Gunships (Skyhammer MIssles) 230



This appears to provide more Air Support, Plenty more Grav and Anti-Armor as well.

You have to have 10 Marines in your tacticals for heavy weapon and special weapon. I think your chaplains points are off by 10. Why do you have a drop pod for your devs and assault marines? Put the drop pods with the two grav tacticals. The last tactical squad I would put a lascannon or plasma cannon for the ignore cover from your sniper scouts since you have two. Further more I would upgrade one of your scouts to a vet sgt with a nihilius and put a missile launcher in there too. Make the combi plas combi grav and put 2 flamers in your assault marines.

 Spacewolverine wrote:
You have to have 10 Marines in your tacticals for heavy weapon and special weapon. I think your chaplains points are off by 10. Why do you have a drop pod for your devs and assault marines? Put the drop pods with the two grav tacticals. The last tactical squad I would put a lascannon or plasma cannon for the ignore cover from your sniper scouts since you have two. Further more I would upgrade one of your scouts to a vet sgt with a nihilius and put a missile launcher in there too. Make the combi plas combi grav and put 2 flamers in your assault marines.

Thank you very much. I didn't notice the tactical ruling!

Can happily switch the drop pods around, as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talon Strike Force

Pinion Battle Demi-Company[

Chaplain, Ravens Fury

Scouts (5x Camo Cloaks, 4x Snipers, 1x Missile Launcher)

Scouts (5x Camo Cloaks, 5x Snipers)

Tactical Squad (Grav Cannon and Grav-Amp) 4x Marines
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Grav)
Drop Pod 35

Tactical Squad (Grav Cannon and Grav-Amp) 4x Marines
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Grav)
Drop Pod 35

Tactical Squad (Plasma Cannon) 4x Marines
-- Sergeant (Boltgun, Combi-Grav)

Devastator Squad (4x Lascannon, 4x Marines)
-- Sergeant (Bolt Pistol, Boltgun)

Assault Squad – (2x Flamer 5x Marines)

Shadowstrike Kill Team
5x Scouts (Camo Cloaks, Melta Bomb)
5x Scouts (Camo Cloaks, Melta Bomb)
5x Veteran Vanguard (Lightning Claws)
5x Veteran Vanguard (Lightning Claws)
Storm Wing
1x Stormraven Gunship (Hurricane Bolters)
2x Stormtalon Gunships (Skyhammer MIssles)


I believe this takes all that critique into account, Minus the Nihilus (As I couldn't find the point cost at work, my Codex is at home.)

Nihilus is 15 points, but I'd leave it off. It really costs 25 points because you have to upgrade the scout srg to a vet srg. Ignores cover lascannons take care of that. Can I ask what the storm wing is for? Do your assault marines have jump packs? Doesn't make sense for the chappy to have a pack and the squad not. Putting them in the raven is nice, try to bring that formation on turn 1 for a turn 2 hover/charge. Also, give him and the assault sarge a melta bomb. They get stuck in with a dreadnought with av13 front they'll be screwed. I'd find some points for some cheap shields and melta bombs on the vanguard vets too. True to RG I LOVE the all claw squads, I just don't want them to get pulped before they get to do something.

The plasma cannon on the last tac unit is fine, just lose the combi-grav. It won't do much for you I don't think.

My 2 cents boss.

The StormWing is for some added defense, giving me slightly longer range and taking advantage of more reserve plays with the RG tactics.

The Assaults have Jump Packs, yessir.

I'll concede they're really just something I thought "Well, maybe this will work a little better than x or y". I'd be happy taking whatever may fit that slot more effectively-- I'm more a fan of assaults typically, anyway.




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Then again, I'd field nothing but Shadowstrike Kill Teams and be happy, but that wouldnt be effective lol

I hear you there boss. I might suggest losing the jump packs on the assaults as they'll ride in the storm raven right? However, with the packs it gives you options for deployment if you want them on the board and they can get around faster to get objectives after they have dealt with whatever they charged. Looks solid man. Have any practice games lined up?

Not just yet. Honestly trying to Hammer down a list before I bite the bullet and buy the units I need.

I hear you there man. Do you have any marine models where you could proxy it up and play test it? If you explained you're trying out some models to see if you want to buy something I think someone would be nice enough to let you do that boss.