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I've read quite often the quote that "There are no Wolves on Fenris, there never was". I always took this to mean that historically there were no native actual wolves on Fenris and the only wolves who appear there now are the result of the Space Wolves' degenerative gene seed. But I suppose it could be as simple as the Space Wolves hating that name and refusing to acknowledge it?
Or something deeper than my guesses? ('');
Is there any solid definition of what they mean by this quote?

Russ was found and raised raised by a Blackmane wolf when he first arrived on Fenris, the quote doesn't literally mean that there aren't wolves on Fenris, and the space wolves refer to themselves as the Vlka Fenryka (translates to the wolves of fenris) so they don't resent the title of wolves, however they do resent the name space wolves, but this quote does not refer to that.
I think you'll find the quote is actually a jibe from magnus the red towards the VI legion as the two legions and their respective primarchs did not get along.

 Glasdir wrote:
Russ was found and raised raised by a Blackmane wolf when he first arrived on Fenris, the quote doesn't literally mean that there aren't wolves on Fenris, and the space wolves refer to themselves as the Vlka Fenryka (translates to the wolves of fenris) so they don't resent the title of wolves, however they do resent the name space wolves, but this quote does not refer to that.
I think you'll find the quote is actually a jibe from magnus the red towards the VI legion as the two legions and their respective primarchs did not get along.

If we go by russ words (and Abnett based his Wolves more on the russ rather than scandinavia, Vlka could possible be a fictional deformation of the germanic volk, which in English translates as folk, so Vlka Fenryka could as well mean Folk of Fenris.

As for the wolves per se, the wildest theory I've read in this forum was that the settllers developed something that adapted them to the harsh conditions, those who didn't reacted well mutated into the fenrisian wolves. That maaaaaay make sense if we consider that only native fenrisians can take the canis helix from the Cup of Wulfen without 99% chances of boching it.

 Dark wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:
Russ was found and raised raised by a Blackmane wolf when he first arrived on Fenris, the quote doesn't literally mean that there aren't wolves on Fenris, and the space wolves refer to themselves as the Vlka Fenryka (translates to the wolves of fenris) so they don't resent the title of wolves, however they do resent the name space wolves, but this quote does not refer to that.
I think you'll find the quote is actually a jibe from magnus the red towards the VI legion as the two legions and their respective primarchs did not get along.

If we go by russ words (and Abnett based his Wolves more on the russ rather than scandinavia, Vlka could possible be a fictional deformation of the germanic volk, which in English translates as folk, so Vlka Fenryka could as well mean Folk of Fenris.

As for the wolves per se, the wildest theory I've read in this forum was that the settllers developed something that adapted them to the harsh conditions, those who didn't reacted well mutated into the fenrisian wolves. That maaaaaay make sense if we consider that only native fenrisians can take the canis helix from the Cup of Wulfen without 99% chances of boching it.

I think you've got a little confused here, in prospero burns it is stated that Vlka fenryka when translated from juvjk (one of the tongues of Fenris) to gothic means wolves of Fenris, it has no other meaning. It is simply the Wolves' name for themselves as they dislike the name space wolves.
As for the second part about the wolves being mutated fenrisians, that is just a nonsensical fan theory, the fenrisian wolves resemble Terran wolves hence why they are called wolves, however they do not share the same genetic makeup as the Terran wolves and instead are far more alien than you would expect and they existed there long before Fenris was settled by human colonies, however the quote there are no wolves on Fenris still doesn't refer to this, as I said before it is a jibe from Magnus at the vi legion.

"There are no wolves on Fenris" was a comment made by Magnus the Red while in a pissing match with a Rune Priest.

Magnus was showing off how intelligent he was in comparison by nit-picking over small details - in this case, that the 'wolves' on Fenris are a convergent evolution of a native life form, and in no way related to terran wolves.

You got me there. I should check the "newer" novels, since I've only got the old Omnibuses.

It's more than just a Magnus jibe. The entire plot of the Battle of the Fang wraps around the fact that the Canis Helix is flawed, and part of the flaw is that failed Space Wolf aspirants and perhaps full Marines can devolve into wolf forms.

In the Battle of the Fang the Fenrisian wolves did respond to the invasion with a sort of feral ferocity and a glimmer of intelligence one would not expect from wholly natural critters. There was even a certain amount of collaboration with the Space Marine and human defenders of Fenris. Also noteworthy was the touchiness of Space Wolves to questions about the Fenrisian Wolves, even from their own thralls. It was very suggestive, but nothing definitive.

The lost 13th Great Company and the tendency of all Space Wolves, specifically Long Fangs, to develop canid features as they age, echoes the devolution theme as well.

This is all a throwback to some very old (and now ignored, though never really retconned) fluff that implies that Space Wolves are somewhat werewolf-ish.

The question if whether Fenrisian wolves were ever a native species or a possibly genetically modified import is never addressed, pro or con. There certainly could be natural lupines on Fenris, regardless of the Canis Helix. The two could exist side by side, or even form common packs. We just don't know.

As to Fenrisian origin stories, it's all left rather vague. GW policy is to leave canon fuzzy and have the sources unreliable so you can imagine any spin you want into your own army and fluff.

By the way, there are probably no wolves on Terra either. By M41 the planet is a world-city with no suitable environment for wolves remaining.

My two cents.

There were Fenrisian Wolves on Fenris before there were Space Wolves - Leman Russ was purportedly raised by them.

The failed Space Wolf aspirants are a separate thing altogether. Those "feral wulfen", for want of a better term, are bestial, and often lose their sentience, but they're not true quadrupeds and retain many primate features.

The 'intelligence' and 'co-ordination' shown by the FWs in Battle of The Fang is more a call-out to the partnerships between humans and dogs than it is a secret hint that OMFG Fenrisian Wolves are Space Wolves!1!!1!1.

Fair points all. My reading of the Battle of the Fang was a bit different from yours, but the fluff allows sufficient wiggle room for all manner of interpretation.

The OMfG however is entirely out of proportion to what I wrote. I did not present my view as established fact or some sort of revelation, only as a possibility.

Eh, you'll get used to the hyperbole. It's a common enough false epiphany that I think it deserved it, no matter the current tone.

In "Thousand Sons" Magnus is walking alongside some Vlka Fenrika and some "wolves" (furry, on all fours) and he can't "See" any wolves with his telepathic powers...just Astartes.

This strongly indicates to me that these "wolves" (at least) are in fact aspirants that failed to turn into Space Marines when they tried to do so.

That's what I thought it meant.

I seem to remember a snippet from Prospero Burns, in which the remembrancer is looking into the eyes of a huge (Thunder?) wolf and recognising the eyes of an Astartes he came to know during his time with the legion. Nothing too explicit but certainly implies something.

I would also like to point out that all the astartes of the rout are described as having they eyes of wolves in prospero burns. I seriously doubt that it is trying to infer that the wolf was once an astartes.
the astartes sometimes transform into wulfen during the initiation and in the heat of battle, however the wulfen are akin to were-wolves as they are bipedal and still recognizable as astartes.

as for the comment about the psyker not detecting the wolves presence that is likely due to the fact that fenrisian wolves are a xenos species and may well not have a presence in the warp as it is well known that fenrisian wolves are far more alien than they appear, hence "there are no wolves on fenris".

besides if the astartes of the rout have been known to fully transform into wolves I would think that GW would find a way to make a bigger deal out of it, kind of like how the dark angels have a dark and terrible secret that no-one can ever find out, because we totally don't know anything about that right?

 Glasdir wrote:
I would also like to point out that all the astartes of the rout are described as having they eyes of wolves in prospero burns. I seriously doubt that it is trying to infer that the wolf was once an astartes.
the astartes sometimes transform into wulfen during the initiation and in the heat of battle, however the wulfen are akin to were-wolves as they are bipedal and still recognizable as astartes.

as for the comment about the psyker not detecting the wolves presence that is likely due to the fact that fenrisian wolves are a xenos species and may well not have a presence in the warp as it is well known that fenrisian wolves are far more alien than they appear, hence "there are no wolves on fenris".

besides if the astartes of the rout have been known to fully transform into wolves I would think that GW would find a way to make a bigger deal out of it, kind of like how the dark angels have a dark and terrible secret that no-one can ever find out, because we totally don't know anything about that right?

Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

I mean, Wolf-Marines with partial wolf DNA riding giant wolves alongside regular wolves and led by a guy who drives a wolf-sled, and occassionally turn into werewolves is bad enough as it is...

But Wolf marines with partial wolf DNA riding giant wolves alongside regular wolves and led by a guy who drives a wolf-sled and occassionally turn into werewolves that then turn into the giant wolves the wolf-marines ride and pull the leader wolf-marine's wolf-sled because they are now giant wolves? C'mon, that's nuts!

Yo dawg, I heard you like wolves.

 Deadshot wrote:


Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

Again, the biggest problem with the "Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Space Marines" theory is the existence of Fenrisian Wolves before Space Marines existed.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

Again, the biggest problem with the "Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Space Marines" theory is the existence of Fenrisian Wolves before Space Marines existed.

Maybe its an Oedipian cycle. The DNA forged into the Canis Helix comes from the Fenrisian Wolves which were humans who had devolved into wolves to cope with the climate, and the over-dominance of the Fenrisian Wolf genes in the Astartes mutation stage turns then into Fenrisian wolves, like a recessive gene suddenly becoming active. Except that having all those steroids and gak turn them into giant versions? Or it could be a timetravel thing, where some space wolves got lost in the warp and sent back to Fenris is 20k era and had to set things up so their Primarch could be raised by wolves, in a Back to the Future style scenario

Didn't the Emperor make the Canis Helix on Earth? Where there aren't any Fenrisian Wolves.....

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

Again, the biggest problem with the "Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Space Marines" theory is the existence of Fenrisian Wolves before Space Marines existed.

Hasn't it been hinted at that Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Fenrisian tribesmen whereas it's the Thunderwolves that are ex-Astartes?

I saw it be a theory somewhere and it made lots of sense to me.

Wolves - degenerate tribesman? If the tribesmen could turn into wolves that would indicate a huge level of genetic mutation and basicly render them unable to become Astartes (only baseline humans can). The Space Wolves can turn into wolfen 'cos of the Canis Helix. The tribesmen don't have it, that is why they can't.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

Again, the biggest problem with the "Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Space Marines" theory is the existence of Fenrisian Wolves before Space Marines existed.

Hasn't it been hinted at that Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Fenrisian tribesmen whereas it's the Thunderwolves that are ex-Astartes?

I saw it be a theory somewhere and it made lots of sense to me.

There are no tribesmen on the mainland, therefore, the Fenrisian wolves cannot be degenerated tribesmen.

hordrak wrote:Wolves - degenerate tribesman? If the tribesmen could turn into wolves that would indicate a huge level of genetic mutation and basicly render them unable to become Astartes (only baseline humans can). The Space Wolves can turn into wolfen 'cos of the Canis Helix. The tribesmen don't have it, that is why they can't.

It wouldn't be a fething werewolf transformation on the full moon, it would be a gradual process over thousands of years, with the human forces having to evolve hairier bodies to cope with the freezing cold, and become quadrapedic to move better in the snow.

dusara217 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Is it really so hard to believe that the Wulfen curse continues to degenerate as time passes until the Astartes fully becomes the wolf, both literally and mentally? As for GW not mentioning it repeatedly and often, I think even they know there is a limit.

Again, the biggest problem with the "Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Space Marines" theory is the existence of Fenrisian Wolves before Space Marines existed.

Hasn't it been hinted at that Fenrisian Wolves are degenerated Fenrisian tribesmen whereas it's the Thunderwolves that are ex-Astartes?

I saw it be a theory somewhere and it made lots of sense to me.

There are no tribesmen on the mainland, therefore, the Fenrisian wolves cannot be degenerated tribesmen.

Anymore, there could have been. You're not thinking long term enough. You are thinking as if the fenrisian wolves are recent phenomena, instead of considering they could be decended from ancient tribes settled there maybe in the 3rd or 4th millenium.

I always thought it was a dumb statement that raises too many insane questions and theories, humans somehow being force- evolved into canines to survive their planets elliptical orbit-caused mini ice ages being one of the higher ones resulting from the different Space Marine tropes.

It'd be like having the humans from Baal have a propensity to devolve into vampires, with Blood Angels being Greater Vampires if the gene-flaw crops up in one of them. I frankly can't even remember why the Blood Angels have sharp vampire fangs, as (I don't think) they ever drink blood that way, it's just to reinforce the vampire trope.

I'm an oldie that always thought the blood was simply tied to Sanguinus' death moment manifesting psychically as a battle rage. Though I admit to not having been well-read on the Blood Angels.

The Blood Angels flaw existed before Sanguinius' death. There's a whole HH novel surrounding chaos trying to exploit the flaw to bring them to the dark side.

So, this is just my interpretation of the quote... I am guessing that it will be balked at by hardcore space wolves fans and I didn't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if it was already brought up.

When Magnus the Red says this, it is in reference to the argument that the space wolves ruin priests do not harness the warp for their psychic powers> Also,how space wolves hate psychers, the warp and that the space wolves feel/believe they are incorruptible by chaos and the warp.

"There are no wolves on Fenris, there never was." Magnus is stating that there truly are not and never were wolves on Fenris. And that these wolves were/are actually warp entities, possibly deamon warp entities. > Leman Russ was raised by "wolves" (entities from the warp)> Leman Russ was raised by chaos deamons and the space wolves use warp entities in battle with them.

So since there are no wolves on Fenris, I interrupt that as there really are no wolves and that these creates are something from the warp.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the quote and how Magnus delivers the quote. Don't get me wrong I truly enjoy the space wolves fluff and back ground and I completely know that the space wolves didn't turn to chaos during the heresy. But I really dig the openness of interpretation of the quote and feel that this is the meaning of the quote and ball-tap Magnus intended when saying it.

I should read the whole section of this book again where the quote is found. But this is how I remember it when I read it.

100

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
So, this is just my interpretation of the quote... I am guessing that it will be balked at by hardcore space wolves fans and I didn't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if it was already brought up.

When Magnus the Red says this, it is in reference to the argument that the space wolves ruin priests do not harness the warp for their psychic powers> Also,how space wolves hate psychers, the warp and that the space wolves feel/believe they are incorruptible by chaos and the warp.

"There are no wolves on Fenris, there never was." Magnus is stating that there truly are not and never were wolves on Fenris. And that these wolves were/are actually warp entities, possibly deamon warp entities. > Leman Russ was raised by "wolves" (entities from the warp)> Leman Russ was raised by chaos deamons and the space wolves use warp entities in battle with them.

So since there are no wolves on Fenris, I interrupt that as there really are no wolves and that these creates are something from the warp.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the quote and how Magnus delivers the quote. Don't get me wrong I truly enjoy the space wolves fluff and back ground and I completely know that the space wolves didn't turn to chaos during the heresy. But I really dig the openness of interpretation of the quote and feel that this is the meaning of the quote and ball-tap Magnus intended when saying it.

I should read the whole section of this book again where the quote is found. But this is how I remember it when I read it.

100

Honestly, Magnus's quote could have meant anything, and, regardless of what he did mean, it's doubtful whether or not he's actually correct, due to having spent very little time on Fenris.

Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
So, this is just my interpretation of the quote... I am guessing that it will be balked at by hardcore space wolves fans and I didn't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if it was already brought up.

When Magnus the Red says this, it is in reference to the argument that the space wolves ruin priests do not harness the warp for their psychic powers> Also,how space wolves hate psychers, the warp and that the space wolves feel/believe they are incorruptible by chaos and the warp.

"There are no wolves on Fenris, there never was." Magnus is stating that there truly are not and never were wolves on Fenris. And that these wolves were/are actually warp entities, possibly deamon warp entities. > Leman Russ was raised by "wolves" (entities from the warp)> Leman Russ was raised by chaos deamons and the space wolves use warp entities in battle with them.

So since there are no wolves on Fenris, I interrupt that as there really are no wolves and that these creates are something from the warp.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the quote and how Magnus delivers the quote. Don't get me wrong I truly enjoy the space wolves fluff and back ground and I completely know that the space wolves didn't turn to chaos during the heresy. But I really dig the openness of interpretation of the quote and feel that this is the meaning of the quote and ball-tap Magnus intended when saying it.

I should read the whole section of this book again where the quote is found. But this is how I remember it when I read it.

100

Honestly, Magnus's quote could have meant anything, and, regardless of what he did mean, it's doubtful whether or not he's actually correct, due to having spent very little time on Fenris.

I don't see how Magnus spending any time in a particular location would have anything to do with him having knowledge on subject matter. I have never been to Russia but I could state thousands of facts about Russia, along a wide spectrum of subject matter. There is tons of fluff in the WH40K universe that show Magnus is a super smart primarch and knows a thing or two on his brothers and where they are from. Him being considered the second most powerful psyker behind his father probably helps as well. I guess what I am saying is that your response is convoluted and that whether Magnus has been to Fenris or not, shouldn't call into question his knowledge on any subject matter about Fenris.

Just saying.

100

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
So, this is just my interpretation of the quote... I am guessing that it will be balked at by hardcore space wolves fans and I didn't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if it was already brought up.

When Magnus the Red says this, it is in reference to the argument that the space wolves ruin priests do not harness the warp for their psychic powers> Also,how space wolves hate psychers, the warp and that the space wolves feel/believe they are incorruptible by chaos and the warp.

"There are no wolves on Fenris, there never was." Magnus is stating that there truly are not and never were wolves on Fenris. And that these wolves were/are actually warp entities, possibly deamon warp entities. > Leman Russ was raised by "wolves" (entities from the warp)> Leman Russ was raised by chaos deamons and the space wolves use warp entities in battle with them.

So since there are no wolves on Fenris, I interrupt that as there really are no wolves and that these creates are something from the warp.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the quote and how Magnus delivers the quote. Don't get me wrong I truly enjoy the space wolves fluff and back ground and I completely know that the space wolves didn't turn to chaos during the heresy. But I really dig the openness of interpretation of the quote and feel that this is the meaning of the quote and ball-tap Magnus intended when saying it.

I should read the whole section of this book again where the quote is found. But this is how I remember it when I read it.

100

Hmmm physical manifestations of the 1K tutelaries.
Ive always suspected that Russ and Magnus ended up switched on the wrong planets.

Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:

Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:
So, this is just my interpretation of the quote... I am guessing that it will be balked at by hardcore space wolves fans and I didn't read every single post in this thread so I apologize if it was already brought up.

When Magnus the Red says this, it is in reference to the argument that the space wolves ruin priests do not harness the warp for their psychic powers> Also,how space wolves hate psychers, the warp and that the space wolves feel/believe they are incorruptible by chaos and the warp.

"There are no wolves on Fenris, there never was." Magnus is stating that there truly are not and never were wolves on Fenris. And that these wolves were/are actually warp entities, possibly deamon warp entities. > Leman Russ was raised by "wolves" (entities from the warp)> Leman Russ was raised by chaos deamons and the space wolves use warp entities in battle with them.

So since there are no wolves on Fenris, I interrupt that as there really are no wolves and that these creates are something from the warp.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the quote and how Magnus delivers the quote. Don't get me wrong I truly enjoy the space wolves fluff and back ground and I completely know that the space wolves didn't turn to chaos during the heresy. But I really dig the openness of interpretation of the quote and feel that this is the meaning of the quote and ball-tap Magnus intended when saying it.

I should read the whole section of this book again where the quote is found. But this is how I remember it when I read it.

100

Honestly, Magnus's quote could have meant anything, and, regardless of what he did mean, it's doubtful whether or not he's actually correct, due to having spent very little time on Fenris.

I don't see how Magnus spending any time in a particular location would have anything to do with him having knowledge on subject matter. I have never been to Russia but I could state thousands of facts about Russia, along a wide spectrum of subject matter. There is tons of fluff in the WH40K universe that show Magnus is a super smart primarch and knows a thing or two on his brothers and where they are from. Him being considered the second most powerful psyker behind his father probably helps as well. I guess what I am saying is that your response is convoluted and that whether Magnus has been to Fenris or not, shouldn't call into question his knowledge on any subject matter about Fenris.

Just saying.

100

I have never ben to Russia. Even though I have never been to Russia, and have never taken genetic samples of its people or its animals, I can say for certain that Russians are actually aliens, and Russian fauna is actually just the stuff the aliens brought with them. This is basically what you're saying Magnus did, as he presented absolutely zero scientific evidence, and just left a vague quote regarding the subject matter that nobody understands.

My point still stands: regardless of what Magnus meant, there is no guarantee that it is true.

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

scientific evidence

And 40K LOL

It may have simply been an insult. Magnus implying that the Space Wolves aren't the proud, noble "Wolves" they think they are, and instead are just the Emperor's dogs.