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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/02/18/palestinian-leader-gives-wife-beating-tips-on-gaza-tv.html?intcmp=hpbt3

A top spiritual leader in the Palestinian territory of Gaza told a television audience last week how and when men can beat their wives, advising not to hit them in a way that “makes the face ugly.”

The shocking interview with Hassan Al-Laham, who holds the title “mufti of Gaza,” came during a weekly Palestinian Authority TV program on social issues. Explaining that divorce must be a last resort in Islam, Al-Laham laid out the four steps that should come first.

"Allah said: Warn them [the wives], and separate from them, and hit them, and bring an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family," he said.

Al-Laham, whose title makes him the top spiritual leader appointed by the Palestinian Authority, then went into detail about how a husband should hit a wife.

"Not hitting that will bring the police, and break her hand and cause bleeding, or hitting that makes the face ugly," he said.

The hitting should "be like a joke," even reinforcing "the love and friendship" between the couple, he said.

Those damn Israeli's. It's all their fault. (I'm being sarcastic...)


I really wish certains regions of Islamic faith could emulate others. Kyrgyzstan being a prime example of a moderate Islamic nation. More area's should emulate that. Not gak like this.

I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

If it's in the book, it has justification. Hence, the problem is with the book and the religion that sprouts from it inherently.

I may be an exception, but after very mild reading of the Koran, the religion itself is inherently violent, perverted, and discriminatory and to me is very obviously the whole problem. Anyone following it can do so "moderately" but will still find personal justification in the book if the situation arises where they feel the action is necessary. The fact that this justification exists is the root of immoral acts in the name of Islam regardless of the "moderation" of those radical beliefs.

There's no reason to associate yourself with a god or prophet who has very questionable moral grounding unless you yourself believe that moral grounding to be unquestionable. Not practicing it is one thing but why would you want to be associated with a god or prophet who is as evil as Allah and Mohammed if you don't believe that stuff should be a practiced part of the religion? (This argument also holds for any religion with anything slightly silly in it, such as Christianity and wearing mixed fabrics. Why associate if you don't believe the whole bloody thing? Isn't it supposed to be the divine word of God? ) In my eyes a religion is EXACTLY what is in the book.

I have no god myself so this may be biased, but why believe in Allah if not for the ability to justify dominance and evil. That's most of what the Koran has that isn't quite so present in other books, at least not as blatantly. It's an offhand person to blame when you do something completely terrible that can't be punished for it, and it's a semi-protected illness of society because of cultural considerations.

My main point is, I don't think moderate Islam exists, just people who have modified a spiritual tradition so that it somewhat allows them to live without feeling evil or not active enough in the service of their particular version of God. The people who don't practice these things have kind of lost the uniqueness of Islam and should probably just call themselves generally religious or make up a new god so they aren't associated with those views. What makes Islam unique from any other religion other than these terrible moral claims?

In the same way, I would say most people who proclaim themselves followers of a religion are only partial followers, and really don't even need the association with a god that religion brings to hold themselves to the same moral standard anyways. Actually fully "believing" in the god or the truth of its contents is almost unheard of and is completely superfluous to the actual moral claims, which are the only parts which are functionally relevant whatsoever. It would be just as functionally useful to say "I agree with the moral claims here and here in this book" and leave ALL the rest out. There's just so much in Islam that is evil even if you only partially follow it, and you can still easily choose to follow those parts whenever you want if it suits you. This is a problem with faith in general.

Humans are sick. We could be doing better, but these cultural poisons like greed and radical faith will hold us stagnant on earth culturally and humanely while they remain entertained in the slightest.

Those poor women..

I think you're conflating "ignorant gak this religious guy thinks" with "stuff a book commands you to do".

Does the Koran demand you beat your wife? I suspect not.

The Quran isn't the culprit for violence in Islam but it is the Hadith that is. Mainly because it was written much after the fact and because the Quran is so vague it, being the Hadith, can get away with a lot.

My above post is nothing more than an opinion, I'm sure many others are more knowledgeable then me about details.

Yeah no offense but it was a pretty terrible one, you mixed up Christianity and Judaism to start and didn't actually read the Quran all the way through. If you did you would realize a majority of Islam is actually the Hadith.

 whembly wrote:
I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

They've done their bit to piss off Russia lately, but by and large all I know is my company covers their technical support.

That and I love saying Kyrgyzstan...

@Ancient Skarbaand: I think it's a simplification that "the religion is the book". The Bible, both Old and New, is horrific. But we are used to domesticated Christianity and domesticated Christians.

The basics of the books of the Bible haven't changed too much, it's the Christian religions and Christians that have changed.

So I think its totally possible, if not inevitable, for Islam on general to become more domesticated than it currently is, given the same books it uses now.

Basically, Muslims need to learn how to ignore the repulsive aspects of their holy books the same way that Christians largely have with the Bible.

 Wyrmalla wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

They've done their bit to piss off Russia lately, but by and large all I know is my company covers their technical support.

That and I love saying Kyrgyzstan...

But do they have superior potassium?

 Wyrmalla wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

They've done their bit to piss off Russia lately, but by and large all I know is my company covers their technical support.

That and I love saying Kyrgyzstan...

Depends on how you're looking at it. The US closing their air base there was in large part due to Kyrgyzstan giving in to Russian demands. The nations government is one that is torn between being faithful to Russia, and wanting to actually advance the nation onto the world stage.

Why follow a religion based on anything that contained barbarism when it was initially constructed by supposed prophets and was proclaimed to be a divine unquestionable document?

People who have "domesticated" belief systems have changed it, how is it the religion anymore if it isn't the following of the exacts words in the book that were initially proclaimed to be the divine word of an unquestionable creator? It's a modified version of faith to basically suit whatever you want, whatever the group of people you're raised by, with, and around decide they want it to be. It's a bastardization of what was initially intended to be unquestionable, perfect, and divine. Anyone following a home brew version of a religion would disappoint the god that was in the ancient text.

@Ustrello

Leviticus 19:19 says:

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

Granted, I haven't read the whole book so that could be taken largely out of context. It was just an example anyways.

 whembly wrote:
I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

I spent a year there all together. I don't know how stable I'd say the government is, considering it's been violently overthrown twice in the last decade, and still largely dances to the strings of foreign powers. Corruption is incredibly rife as well amongst those who have power. I was on a trip to the capitol city once when our bus got pulled over by a police officer. He was going to try to shake us all down for money. Once he realized it was a bus full of US military peep's he just left, but stuff like that is incredibly common. I on a number of occasions saw the guy who runs their international airport come to the Wing Commander and demand bribe money.

The people though are rather moderate. Even the "backwater" nomadic folks who still roam the mountains. They're Islamic, but they treat it much like western Christians do. It's a part of their life, but it doesn't define their life. Most drink alcohol, prayer occurring 5 times a day is not the norm. Holiday fasting, meh. They were also very receptive to western ideals. Many of the millenial generation loved the western life style, and they wanted more of it in their country. I'd say if that generation can continue to embrace it, and not be corrupted by the old guard, the nation as a whole is in for some good times in the future.

@AncientSkarband: I think you'd need to pose that question to a Christian or Muslim, etc., as I don't know the answer.

The fact remains though that most Christians ignore the parts of the Bible which are not acceptable to the ever-evolving moral zeitgeist.

And I suspect there are as many forms of Christianity as there are Christians, and as many forms of Islam as there are Muslims.

 djones520 wrote:
They were also very receptive to western ideals. Many of the millenial generation loved the western life style, and they wanted more of it in their country. I'd say if that generation can continue to embrace it, and not be corrupted by the old guard, the nation as a whole is in for some good times in the future.

If only it were that simple...

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Why follow a religion based on anything that contained barbarism when it was initially constructed by supposed prophets and was proclaimed to be a divine unquestionable document?

People who have "domesticated" belief systems have changed it, how is it the religion anymore if it isn't the following of the exacts words in the book that were initially proclaimed to be the divine word of an unquestionable creator? It's a modified version of faith to basically suit whatever you want, whatever the group of people you're raised by, with, and around decide they want it to be. It's a bastardization of what was initially intended to be unquestionable, perfect, and divine. Anyone following a home brew version of a religion would disappoint the god that was in the ancient text.

@Ustrello

Leviticus 19:19 says:

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth4 made of two kinds of material.

Granted, I haven't read the whole book so that could be taken largely out of context. It was just an example anyways.

You do realize you are just proving my point right? Leviticus is old testament specifically the Torah which christians do not and should not follow.

 djones520 wrote:
Many of the millenial generation loved the western life style, and they wanted more of it in their country. I'd say if that generation can continue to embrace it, and not be corrupted by the old guard, the nation as a whole is in for some good times in the future.

Which part of the West? Lifestyles vary a lot in that region of the world.

My assertion is that all of those forms are not truly what the god apparently said and therefore aren't actual followers of the religion.

Saying you can change the divine words the religion was founded on to suit your personal beliefs is admitting that religions were completely invented by men in the first place and are all entirely fictional. An imaginary friend telling you and your friends that you're a good person is not the same thing as an unquestionable creator who laid out fairly extensive rules on how to live your life.

Khorne wouldn't all of a sudden become a friendly guy just because one of his Cultists decided he likes to feel friendly sometimes and would prefer a god like him.

An analogy that stuck with me is if the bible is a codex, then Old testament is the background, history, the fluff; while new testament is the rules.

@Ustrello

Why should they not follow it? Does the old testament say "this is actually all false, refer to new testament for the real religion?"

We are simply viewing religion differently. In my eyes, if a religion was true, clearly nothing would ever change from the initial holy book, because it would have been the actual legitimate words of God, and a real decree from him that you should live your life this way.

However I do understand that the fact people don't actually accept these things within their faith that aren't congruent with evolving morality functionally allows people to have the faith in a way while not being a danger to society.

When Jesus died on the cross he forgave all of man's sins and their need to follow the torah. By following the torah you are basically saying Jesus was not the son of God. The only time you should follow the torah (and this is according to Paul which in my mind makes it shaky) is if you are circumcised which puts you in the covenant Abraham made with god.

Paul is just ancient fanfic that got retconned into canon somehow.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
@Ustrello

Why should they not follow it? Does the old testament say "this is actually all false, refer to new testament for the real religion?"

We are simply viewing religion differently. In my eyes, if a religion was true, clearly nothing would ever change from the initial holy book, because it would have been the actual legitimate words of God, and a real decree from him that you should live your life this way.

It says in Leviticus "Moses, give these laws to the people lf Israel," at the start of every law... Christians are not Israelites therefore the laws don't apply. Christians are primarily gentiles.

The new covenant basically says "the old testimant was for rougher times, now you need to be nice to people".

Rivlin and his cos are going the laughing their way to complete domination of the former holy land and beyond as long as these sub-1000CE retards as their opponents. Appalling.

 feeder wrote:
Paul is just ancient fanfic that got retconned into canon somehow.

Exalted

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
If it's in the book, it has justification. Hence, the problem is with the book and the religion that sprouts from it inherently.

I agree with this, and I think we should push it to the only legitimate conclusion: down with Islam, Christianity and Judaism. At the very least. Others religions, beware, we will look you up, and assess you too!

 feeder wrote:
I think you're conflating "ignorant gak this religious guy thinks" with "stuff a book commands you to do".

Does the Koran demand you beat your wife? I suspect not.

Why don't you check it instead of suspecting it?
http://quranexplorer.com/Quran/
The verse you should be looking for is 4:34. Be sure to check all the different translation (unless you can read classic Arabic, in which case you are golden). And don't forget that there is more to Islam than just the Quran. There are all the hadith, there is the Sura, there are all the official schools of interpretation and all that.

 whembly wrote:
I've never heard/seen much news out of Kyrgyzstan.

Must be that it's such a quiet, stable government (general speaking of course)?

Isn't it run as a totalitarian dictatorship??

 feeder wrote:
An analogy that stuck with me is if the bible is a codex, then Old testament is the background, history, the fluff; while new testament is the rules.

So, for instance, to continue your analogy, it's like “This game has okay rules, not TOO bad but nothing to write home about, and the fluff is a cesspool of racism, sexism, and terrible terrible writing. Let's keep playing it and call it perfect”?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
If it's in the book, it has justification. Hence, the problem is with the book and the religion that sprouts from it inherently.

I agree with this, and I think we should push it to the only legitimate conclusion: down with Islam, Christianity and Judaism. At the very least. Others religions, beware, we will look you up, and assess you too!

Wow, sure didn't take long for the religion bashing to start. Didn't even get a whole page down...

 jasper76 wrote:
And I suspect there are as many forms of Christianity as there are Christians, and as many forms of Islam as there are Muslims.

Ehh... not quite... My understanding of Islam and Muslims as a whole, is there are are serious issues with anyone wanting to interpret something different from the book. It is almost nothing like Christianity in this regard. As such, there's what... 4 different "sects" in Islam?? If there are any more than that, or crazy sub-sects of those 4, I don't know about them.


Most users who have been around religion threads with me know my general feelings on religion as a whole, so, to avoid a mandatory vacation from OT, I will refrain