Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
There’s an issue with monstrous creatures and walkers, their lack of speed leaves them as lack luster choices best left in the display case than on the tabletop, so I’d like to propose a few tweaks…
First of the beasties -MC’s have a 12” movement base -If MC’s move more than 6” and want to shoot, they must resolve their attacks as snap shots (this excludes --swooping/gliding MCs) -For every unsaved wound they reduce their attack characteristic by 1 (to a minimum of 1) They lose smash but gain AP 3 rending
The Walkers -They have 6” movement still, but may elect to make another move at their base movement speed in the -shooting phase, however they if they take dangerous terrain tests they fail on a 1 or 2 (this is separate from run moves, allowing them to charge but not shoot) -Dangerous terrain tests no longer cause immobilization, they cause a glance instead -Immobilization causes a walker to half its base movement speed and reduce its attack characteristics to 1 on the first round of combat -Walkers gain AP 3 rending
The monsters performance declines as they suffer damage but should help out close combat beasties like the ‘nids… Walkers now become a threat, in close combat with a much larger threat radius at the cost of their shooting and increased risk of damaging themselves over terrain and cc walkers can still play a part in the game even if they are immobilized!
So what do you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 15:15:23
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
Wraithlords and other beasties still get slowed with terrain and have to snap shoot if they move too fast so that should calm down d strength toting wraithseers and riptides
And gargantuans/ super heavies I think are in a good place already, I'd just prefer 30k style limits on those units (1 every 2000 points seem reasonable)
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
I like the -1A per wound lost, but it should also impact ranged somehow?
Also, things like Sentinels, War Walkers, and Riptides shouldn't have AP2.
Maybe but the AP2 bring them inline with monstrous creatures and is there as a balancing, being jumped on by a riptide/ dreadnought or a warwalker should crush the victim, armour or not.
As for the ranged penalties, I don't agree with... I'm not sure how fair that would be to implement without completely nerf hammering them to the ground or slowing down the game considerably (Reduce it's ballistic skill by 1 if it's down to half wounds?)...
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
What about remove AP2 from MC's and give them both rending for a chance to remove armour?... we are talking about 2 ton goliaths of metal/ bone so I don't think they should be entirely neutered
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 14:58:57
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
What about remove AP2 from MC's and give them both rending for a chance to remove armour?... we are talking about 2 ton goliaths of metal/ bone so I don't think they should be entirely neutered
Maybe AP 3 rending? I'm just tired of *the heaviest armor EVAR" being ignored by so many units. Riptides trivially punching out Sanguinary Guard is just vomit inducing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 15:01:35
What about remove AP2 from MC's and give them both rending for a chance to remove armour?... we are talking about 2 ton goliaths of metal/ bone so I don't think they should be entirely neutered
Maybe AP 3 rending? I'm just tired of *the heaviest armor EVAR" being ignored by so many units. Riptides trivially punching out Sanguinary Guard is just vomit inducing.
Edited and changed, smash gone and rending added (any stabby creature that needs it will probabaly have ap 1-2 attached to a cc weapon profile)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 15:17:15
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
We could start by changing the Riptide to Jet Pack Infantry, with a special rules proviso that says "an XV104 Riptide Battlesuit may not be joined by Independent Characters, nor, if it has the Independent Character special rule, may it join a unit containing any other Independent Characters."
Then add:
Extraordinarily bulky: A model with this special rule may not be carried aboard any transport unless that transport is capable of carrying Monstrous Creatures.
As for walkers, I wouldn't want to give Smash to all of them. Indeed, not all MCs should have it, either. But some (of both) should. Most of the Tyranid fighty bugs, for example - they're hosed enough against strong armor saves without that. You could get away with removing it from things like the Exocrine, though.
Now, I think a Wraithlord with 12" movement might just about be useful, though.
jade_angel wrote: We could start by changing the Riptide to Jet Pack Infantry, with a special rules proviso that says "an XV104 Riptide Battlesuit may not be joined by Independent Characters, nor, if it has the Independent Character special rule, may it join a unit containing any other Independent Characters."
Then add:
Extraordinarily bulky: A model with this special rule may not be carried aboard any transport unless that transport is capable of carrying Monstrous Creatures.
As for walkers, I wouldn't want to give Smash to all of them. Indeed, not all MCs should have it, either. But some (of both) should. Most of the Tyranid fighty bugs, for example - they're hosed enough against strong armor saves without that. You could get away with removing it from things like the Exocrine, though.
Now, I think a Wraithlord with 12" movement might just about be useful, though.
But again with the Riptide if it moves more than 6" these proposed rules would make it snap fire and really a riptide really should be able to have the chance to step on a marines, and as for cc nids; shouldn't they have AP2 in their weapons profile for claws and such rather than a smash for ALL MCs
and yep I'm happy about the movement, CC dreads become useful, as does the Avatar/ Skarbrand/ Wraithlords/ Hellbrutes...
Are there any other improvements we could add?
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
Martel732 wrote: Riptides having AP 2 melee is still one of the most humiliating things in the game.
No, thats the necron spyder thingies having AP2 thats insulting. That thing is smaller than a warboss yet is an MC for some reason, thus AP2.
OP: MCs really dont need a buff, honestly the MC base rules are pretty fine as they are its just the specific 3 MCs everyone sees that makes them seem so strong, when in reality a small chunk of the MCs in the game are really, really good. Walkers on the other hand need a flippin' overhaul. What you proposed is a start, but i dont feel its anywhere near enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 15:31:37
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Honestly, the only three armies that have any right to have MC's are Tyranids, Daemons, and -maybe- dark eldar. All other armies should have walkers.
Riptide (variant)> WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-10 I2 A2 4HP. Walker Moves like jet infantry. Stormsurge > WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-11 I2 A2 6HP. SHW, restricted to 6" movement. can perform 1 stomp if it didnt deploy sabilizer thingies Ta'unar > WS2 BS4 AV 13-13-12 I2 A2 8HP SHW
Wrathlord > WS4 BS4 AV 12-12-10 3HP Walker Has 2 powerfists, 2 (flamer/shuriken catapult), option for two shoulder weapons Wraithknight > WS4 BS4 AV 13-12-11 6HP SHW
Tomb spider WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+ Infantry, Slow and Purposeful. Claws are S user AP5 shred-rending.
Dreadknight can stay where it is. The only 'fluffy' walker cross over would make it open topped, which would just turn it into a crappy penitant engine. And we all know how good those are. In Fact...
Penitent Engine WS4 BS1 S5 T5 W3 SV4+. Monstrous Creature 80 points Two Power Fists, Two Flamers, Rage, Shield of Faith. Unstoppable changed to "For each wound lost, a Penitent Engine gains +1 Attack.
Add in a rule to the few remaining machine-esque MC's [DEMC's, dreadknight, new penitent engine] by adding on the rule that 30k battle automatons have; successful wounds with the poison rule must be re-rolled, but things with the Haywire rule cause a wound on a 2+, with 6's having the "no saves of any kind' clause.
Past that, the issue is all of the legacy rules that GW seems intent on leaving in the game. The vehicle damage table should exist, just not cripplingly so. Explode still needs to be in there to balance VS Instant Death, because I cant think of an MC that has EW naturally. Yeah, daemons can get it through a reward/WLT, but GG you got a lucky roll on a random table you paid to roll on, congratulations. Nerfing MC's into the ground makes the armies that depend on them to be even worse. Suddenly Nids and Daemons have 0 ways to contend with a Fist/Melta dread, and basically have to rely on tar-pitting anything with a 2+ save. The "ap3 rending" bit, that is just a gratuitous, to the point of "I never want to lose to an MC in CQC again" thing. Do you honestly expect me to believe that guardsman bob with a power axe has greater penetrative power than a Carnifex? Things that are "living engines of destruction, capable of ripping a battle tank in half with contemptuous ease"? No. Just no. I remember when every MC was a walking chainfist. There wasnt a vehicle out there that a tyrant/thirster/fex couldn't rip a new one. Now [aside from M. D-Axe] Blood thirsters can barely scratch the paint on a dreadnought hive tyrants die like scrubs to them, and carnifex, well, if he survives the 4+ S10 AP2 I4 attacks, he might hurt it a bit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 16:19:24
I'm going to have to disagree about the Wraithlord. Agree with most of the rest.
Wraithlords are Soulstone-activated chunks of Wraithbone. There is no engine to destroy. There is no fuel reserves to ignite. There is just Wraithbone. Even the textbook MCs - Nids - have organs and pathways that could be damaged. But they are more MCs than Vehicles, because its more a living organism, without the clunking internal systems. Wraithlords are even further from machinery than living creatures. So MC fits for them (and the Avatar, but that would be the Demon side of things).
The WK I could see being a Walker. It might be a Wraith core, but it has a living pilot, and added subsystems. If the Revenant and Phantom are Walkers, so should the WK.
If a Riptide is a Walker (yes, it should be), so should a NDK. But an NDK should have Smash.
Aside from the WL and Avatar, yeah, more should be Walkers.
StarHunter25 wrote: Honestly, the only three armies that have any right to have MC's are Tyranids, Daemons, and -maybe- dark eldar. All other armies should have walkers.
Riptide (variant)> WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-10 I2 A2 4HP. Walker Moves like jet infantry.
Stormsurge > WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-11 I2 A2 6HP. SHW, restricted to 6" movement. can perform 1 stomp if it didnt deploy sabilizer thingies
Ta'unar > WS2 BS4 AV 13-13-12 I2 A2 8HP SHW
Wrathlord > WS4 BS4 AV 12-12-10 3HP Walker Has 2 powerfists, 2 (flamer/shuriken catapult), option for two shoulder weapons
Wraithknight > WS4 BS4 AV 13-12-11 6HP SHW
Tomb spider WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+ Infantry, Slow and Purposeful. Claws are S user AP5 shred-rending.
Dreadknight can stay where it is. The only 'fluffy' walker cross over would make it open topped, which would just turn it into a crappy penitant engine. And we all know how good those are. In Fact...
Penitent Engine WS4 BS1 S5 T5 W3 SV4+. Monstrous Creature 80 points Two Power Fists, Two Flamers, Rage, Shield of Faith. Unstoppable changed to "For each wound lost, a Penitent Engine gains +1 Attack.
Add in a rule to the few remaining machine-esque MC's [DEMC's, dreadknight, new penitent engine] by adding on the rule that 30k battle automatons have; successful wounds with the poison rule must be re-rolled, but things with the Haywire rule cause a wound on a 2+, with 6's having the "no saves of any kind' clause.
Past that, the issue is all of the legacy rules that GW seems intent on leaving in the game. The vehicle damage table should exist, just not cripplingly so. Explode still needs to be in there to balance VS Instant Death, because I cant think of an MC that has EW naturally. Yeah, daemons can get it through a reward/WLT, but GG you got a lucky roll on a random table you paid to roll on, congratulations. Nerfing MC's into the ground makes the armies that depend on them to be even worse. Suddenly Nids and Daemons have 0 ways to contend with a Fist/Melta dread, and basically have to rely on tar-pitting anything with a 2+ save. The "ap3 rending" bit, that is just a gratuitous, to the point of "I never want to lose to an MC in CQC again" thing. Do you honestly expect me to believe that guardsman bob with a power axe has greater penetrative power than a Carnifex? Things that are "living engines of destruction, capable of ripping a battle tank in half with contemptuous ease"? No. Just no. I remember when every MC was a walking chainfist. There wasnt a vehicle out there that a tyrant/thirster/fex couldn't rip a new one. Now [aside from M. D-Axe] Blood thirsters can barely scratch the paint on a dreadnought hive tyrants die like scrubs to them, and carnifex, well, if he survives the 4+ S10 AP2 I4 attacks, he might hurt it a bit.
I'm beginning to pity Dark Eldar
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
Then carifexes and hive tyrants should be very expensive if they are going to be god models like 2nd ed. "We ignore everything in the game and fight at full capacity until dead!" What a damn joke.
BA have to make their model unfieldably expensive to even get ap 3 on a s4 dude. Power weapons for the lose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 16:58:13
And the C'tan Shards? How should something that is a piece of a "god of reality" be treated?
The only problem with the C'tan, I feel, is that they are underpowered to the threat that they are said to represent, yet their models are also relatively anemic to this status of power, especially when compared to the Riptide.
As for the speed of some things, why not address it in the same manner as others. Introduce a Beast Walker and Monstrous Beasts types (or make Beast a sub-type like Jump and Jet Pack).
Still, all and all, the divide between Monstrous Creatures and Walkers is too large. Vehicles have a built in Instant Death feature and the ability to have Weapons and movement removed. Monstrous Creatures have no such weaknesses, but are vulnerable to Force, Poison, and extremely susceptible to Grav for the most part (C'tan and some of the Greater Daemons being the least vulnerable).
Some of the biggest issues in difference is that capacity for Immobilization and Weapon loss. So for balance, either Monstrous Creatures have to have a capacity for Weapon loss or Mobility, OR Walkers get to ignore this aspect of their Vehicle status. I do not favor the latter, but AoS uses the path of the former to good effect.
How about this: When Monstrous Creatures are reduced to half of their Wounds, they lose Move Through Cover, Smash, Hammer of Wrath, and Relentless, as their bodies are weakened, made clumsy, and pain diverts their concentration.
Their speed is affected by losing Move Through Cover and Relentless (at least for the shooty ones). Their damage and firepower get reduced by the loss of Relentless, Hammer of Wrath, and Smash.
Part of me would suggest a reduction of Attacks like AoS to half (to a minimum of 1), as well, and try that out for a few games between all the melee MC users like 'Nids and Daemons.
To address StarHunter's concern, that is more an individual weapon setup. Carnifex and Bloodthrister's need not worry so much (Str 9 is REALLY good at opening cans), but the Hive Tyrant and other melee Monstrous Creatures need weapons that allow them to get their damage up to snuff.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
StarHunter25 wrote: Honestly, the only three armies that have any right to have MC's are Tyranids, Daemons, and -maybe- dark eldar. All other armies should have walkers.
Riptide (variant)> WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-10 I2 A2 4HP. Walker Moves like jet infantry.
Stormsurge > WS2 BS3 S5 AV 12-12-11 I2 A2 6HP. SHW, restricted to 6" movement. can perform 1 stomp if it didnt deploy sabilizer thingies
Ta'unar > WS2 BS4 AV 13-13-12 I2 A2 8HP SHW
Wrathlord > WS4 BS4 AV 12-12-10 3HP Walker Has 2 powerfists, 2 (flamer/shuriken catapult), option for two shoulder weapons
Wraithknight > WS4 BS4 AV 13-12-11 6HP SHW
Tomb spider WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+ Infantry, Slow and Purposeful. Claws are S user AP5 shred-rending.
Dreadknight can stay where it is. The only 'fluffy' walker cross over would make it open topped, which would just turn it into a crappy penitant engine. And we all know how good those are. In Fact...
Penitent Engine WS4 BS1 S5 T5 W3 SV4+. Monstrous Creature 80 points Two Power Fists, Two Flamers, Rage, Shield of Faith. Unstoppable changed to "For each wound lost, a Penitent Engine gains +1 Attack.
Add in a rule to the few remaining machine-esque MC's [DEMC's, dreadknight, new penitent engine] by adding on the rule that 30k battle automatons have; successful wounds with the poison rule must be re-rolled, but things with the Haywire rule cause a wound on a 2+, with 6's having the "no saves of any kind' clause.
Past that, the issue is all of the legacy rules that GW seems intent on leaving in the game. The vehicle damage table should exist, just not cripplingly so. Explode still needs to be in there to balance VS Instant Death, because I cant think of an MC that has EW naturally. Yeah, daemons can get it through a reward/WLT, but GG you got a lucky roll on a random table you paid to roll on, congratulations. Nerfing MC's into the ground makes the armies that depend on them to be even worse. Suddenly Nids and Daemons have 0 ways to contend with a Fist/Melta dread, and basically have to rely on tar-pitting anything with a 2+ save. The "ap3 rending" bit, that is just a gratuitous, to the point of "I never want to lose to an MC in CQC again" thing. Do you honestly expect me to believe that guardsman bob with a power axe has greater penetrative power than a Carnifex? Things that are "living engines of destruction, capable of ripping a battle tank in half with contemptuous ease"? No. Just no. I remember when every MC was a walking chainfist. There wasnt a vehicle out there that a tyrant/thirster/fex couldn't rip a new one. Now [aside from M. D-Axe] Blood thirsters can barely scratch the paint on a dreadnought hive tyrants die like scrubs to them, and carnifex, well, if he survives the 4+ S10 AP2 I4 attacks, he might hurt it a bit.
Beyond echoing Bharring's disagreement on the Wraithlord, I'd also argue that the Wraithknight should be 12/12/10 with Eldar Titan Holo-Fields, just like the Revenant Titan - but without the "non-Titans can only hit on a 6 in melee" clause.
I might give the Tomb Spyder Relentless instead of SnP, too. Also, what of the Ghostkeel? Walker, or Infantry?
My point was that high AV Imperial stuff is now LOLed off the board by D or haywire now. If you aren't paying for the AV to begin with, joke's on the D and haywire people.
So it sucks to play Eldar, with our D Wraiths and Haywire hawks, because it kills our Titans just as fast as IoM Titans?
And the flipside of not relying on high AV is that we can't rely on high AV. Those S7s pen our front armor, but glance or bounce off the IK's. Sure, only half the S7 hits due to Holo, but only half glances/pens get past the IKs 4++ in the front half. So a Plasma gun is *still* twice as deadly to the front of the proposed WK than it is to an IK - even ignoring the chance if an Explodes!.
Bharring wrote: So it sucks to play Eldar, with our D Wraiths and Haywire hawks, because it kills our Titans just as fast as IoM Titans?
And the flipside of not relying on high AV is that we can't rely on high AV. Those S7s pen our front armor, but glance or bounce off the IK's. Sure, only half the S7 hits due to Holo, but only half glances/pens get past the IKs 4++ in the front half. So a Plasma gun is *still* twice as deadly to the front of the proposed WK than it is to an IK - even ignoring the chance if an Explodes!.
The story is worse for S6 or rear arc.
You'll kill all the plasma guns before they can fire. You're Eldar.
Maybe. But not with the model that's being proposed upthread.
Give it a pair of Scatter Lasers and it might take one Tac squad off the board from shooting in a round. Maybe. But you can get a lot more than that for the same points.
When they let frickin Skitarri ride BA pods from fleshtearer strike force, any hope that AV-based lists had died. That's on top of S6/7 spam, on top of Str D, on top of haywire greandes. Because remember the Imperium does NOT have the firepower to keep its vehicles safe from haywire assault.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/23 18:56:06
Bharring wrote: So Xenos rock because the IoM can't handle an IoM faction?
Or are you saying the IoM can't shoot Hawks - a T3 4+ unit - off the table?
I'm saying that all the compounding ways that AV-based protection is now a dumpster fire has made it not a tenable thing to try to build a list around. Remember, melta still exists. And even though it sucks now (because MCs LOLOLOLOL at melta) , because 7th ed, I still bring it as BA, because it's what I have.
Also, can't hawks deep strike with no scatter? That makes it easy to use the target vehicle as LOS blocking terrain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/23 19:02:49
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys